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Old 03-23-2010, 07:58 PM   #1
NagaBaba
 
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What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Somebody sent me a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vFcq...ayer_embedded#

Now I understand what AIKI is. I was laughing so hard, tears like waterfall, abdominal muscles painful, still can't believe what I saw....the uke's voices are incredible!!!! It made my day - non, non not day, a month!

Nagababa

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Old 03-23-2010, 09:02 PM   #2
Walter Martindale
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Somebody sent me a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vFcq...ayer_embedded#

Now I understand what AIKI is. I was laughing so hard, tears like waterfall, abdominal muscles painful, still can't believe what I saw....the uke's voices are incredible!!!! It made my day - non, non not day, a month!
Couldn't watch the whole thing. AAAAGGHHHH
I think I'd seen this bs before - the frauds that give aikido a bad name!!
W
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:03 PM   #3
Michael Hackett
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Wow! Never thought I'd see the day when I agreed with Scezepan.

Michael
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:16 PM   #4
crbateman
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Heavy sigh...
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Old 03-23-2010, 10:02 PM   #5
ramenboy
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

what in the....

practice hard
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:49 PM   #6
Abasan
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Some people never learn. If they don't understand it, they think its not real. Get out of the cave.

Walter, NZ is not far from here. Drop by this Sunday and give him your best shot. Tell him its fake.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 03-24-2010, 01:10 AM   #7
Michael Hackett
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Ahmad,

I'm one of those who doesn't understand it and thinks it's fake. Please try to disabuse me of my opinion. Have you experienced what he's doing yourself? Can you do it? Can any of his students do it? Tell us about your experiences or of your knowledge of Hasim Sensei's skill as demonstrated on this video clip.

Michael
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Old 03-24-2010, 01:48 AM   #8
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Ahmad,

I'm one of those who doesn't understand it and thinks it's fake. Please try to disabuse me of my opinion. Have you experienced what he's doing yourself? Can you do it? Can any of his students do it? Tell us about your experiences or of your knowledge of Hasim Sensei's skill as demonstrated on this video clip.
Looks like he's one of Takeda Yoshinobu's students:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf6-...eature=related

I talked to another Yamaguchi Seigo student (of about the same vintage as Takeda) about this kind of thing last year - he started with "hypnotism" and "brain washing", and it went downhill from there :-).

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-24-2010, 03:52 AM   #9
bulevardi
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

He's probably using his Ki power. If you don't understand Ki, you think it's fake. You have to practice Ki exercises a bit longer to achieve the same state of being.
Ueshiba had the same surrealistic powers, you guys are laughing with him too?

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Old 03-24-2010, 04:01 AM   #10
Abasan
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Michael, I understand where you come from. Believe me, I've not the patience for a lot of crap that goes around in the martial arts world.

To give you a perspective, I met Hakim sensei in 2001 in Singapore. Back then I was practising Hombu mould aikikai. During those days, either you fall or I break something of yours. I sought Hakim sensei in Singapore because he came with a contingent of commando looking dudes. Apparently they were the Indonesian Presidential Guards. At that point he was teaching them and the military police for a period of several years.

So I thought it would be fun to see what an army coach had to offer. He took me by surprise. Very soft, very elusive and ultimately impossible to resist. That is my best description.

In 2001, he hasn't even begun to exhibit these 'hocus pocus aiki' aikido yet. At that point in his life, his background was Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Yoshinkan, Daitoryu and Aikikai. It was after that he also studied under a lineage of Shin Shin Toitsu.

For a fact, most of the 'trick's' that he performs are basic Daitoryu Aiki stuff. Its very standard fare if you youtube Daitoryu a lot. Big difference here, uke doesn't fall into line because of anticipation of pain. They fall in line because it just happens. Don't ask me why.

As for the no touch. Its not waza. You don't feel like you get hit by an invisible force or something like that. He's not manipulating you remotely. Its just akin to you taking a step unto floor that suddenly isn't there. Its not magic.

Can I do it? Hardly. That's why I'm training as often as I can. He lives in another country after all and I don't print money on trees. Can his students do it. Yes. Several of them are able to do it, albeit to a lesser degree.

I'm not here as a messenger of truth or his Publicity Manager... I only cry foul if what someone says is different from what I understand it to be. There are no words that can teach you Aikido. You need to feel it yourself. Similarly here, no words I say will convince you. You are welcome to try it and make your own decision. A lot of people have done that.

Trust me, even in his country many people call him crazy. And this is Indonesia, where the spiritual elements of martial arts especially in Silat is a given.

With regards to Takeda sensei. Yes, sensei Hakim has attended classes at Takeda's home dojo. But he is not formally a student of his. That in itself is rare. Takeda sensei also visited Hakim sensei's dojo last year or the year before and that too is rare.

I too just trained with a sensei who was a long standing Yamaguichi student, just this couple of days back. No doubt, his students do not all feel or do aikido the way Yamaguichi does. Tissier, Endo, Takeda... they are all different yes? Is there a point? Osensei's students all came out different too. Yet, in what Takeda sensei does, I can see some similarities with Yamaguichi. So too in Endo sensei. Everyone picks up what comes easiest to them first. Takeda's art is soft and inviting. Do not mistake it for impractical. As for the no touch performances that he does... its been taken out of context.

What I'm going to say next is probably going to get me flamed for eternity...
Takeda sensei probably has hundreds of students under his various dojo's. Canada, Germany, Japan and Australia... that I can think off the top of my head. Maybe 90% of his students don't understand what he's doing and maybe only 1% can actually do what he does. Who said learning Aiki was easy? Is teaching it any easier?

The other thing is... if teaching Aiki is hard and learning it is harder, if that remains the emphasis of Aikido, there won't be many students left. That doesn't augur well for an international organisation you would think.

If I digress, I apologise. I just write as the thoughts come out. Anyway, Sensei Hakim teaches that we should make Spirit the center of our practice.
Aiki no Kokoro. The heart of Aiki.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 03-24-2010, 07:07 AM   #11
Marc Abrams
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

I see a couple of different "issues" here. One, this teacher has good structure and appears to move well while maintaining structure. This, to me, is a hallmark of developing and utilizing good energy. Two, his students have taken to amplifying the effects of experiencing energy. This is a martially moronic thing to do. It would have been better to have seen them try and "ground out" the energy or at least, maintain their structure and creating safe distance. Three, his students are taking ukemi, as opposed to not having a choice in the matter. Four, I would like to see this teacher handle a well-trained martial artist employing sincere and effective attacks. I am not suggesting that this teacher would not be able to respond effectively, but I would be curious to see what that video clip would look like.

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:48 AM   #12
Michael Douglas
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

That one won't play for me ... is it similar to this one?
http://www.youtube.com/user/willustr.../4/iuPHFSrC_zw
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:11 AM   #13
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Couldn't watch the whole thing. AAAAGGHHHH
I think I'd seen this bs before - the frauds that give aikido a bad name!!
W
No Walter, you are wrong!!

this is NOT aikido

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:15 AM   #14
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
That one won't play for me ... is it similar to this one?
http://www.youtube.com/user/willustr.../4/iuPHFSrC_zw
Not at all similar. You should looking for his video with name "AIKI".

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:32 AM   #15
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
For a fact, most of the 'trick's' that he performs are basic Daitoryu Aiki stuff. Its very standard fare if you youtube Daitoryu a lot. Big difference here, uke doesn't fall into line because of anticipation of pain. They fall in line because it just happens. Don't ask me why..
Until today I read your posts with great interest. I can't belive you are seriously writing this opinion. It is simply not credible. There is nothing there to make them scream like a crazy.I think they lost their minds.

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
If I digress, I apologise. I just write as the thoughts come out. Anyway, Sensei Hakim teaches that we should make Spirit the center of our practice.
Aiki no Kokoro. The heart of Aiki.
Me I think he brainwashed them and created a kind of sect. There is another 'master' in France - G.Blaize who is doing even more horrible things. But he is a direct student of Hikitsushi sensei.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:55 AM   #16
Marc Abrams
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Until today I read your posts with great interest. I can't belive you are seriously writing this opinion. It is simply not credible. There is nothing there to make them scream like a crazy.I think they lost their minds.

Me I think he brainwashed them and created a kind of sect. There is another 'master' in France - G.Blaize who is doing even more horrible things. But he is a direct student of Hikitsushi sensei.
Szczepan:

We are always entitled to our own opinions of everything. That gentleman made a sincere offer for you to experience first hand so that your opinions are based upon a real-life encounter. I always welcome opportunities to experience as much as I can directly. This has enabled me to call B.S. what it really is. I have also experienced stuff that is "beyond my pay grade" to understand, while recognizing that something highly unique and unusual has happened. I have my preliminary opinion of what I saw, and would love to experience it in person. I have experienced things recently with Kenji Ushiro Sensei that I initially discounted, attempted to experience otherwise, and ended up acknowledging that something happened beyond what I thought I believed could happen.

As we get older, we can either shut our minds down, or open them up, based upon the totality of our life experiences. I frankly prefer to come up with a preliminary hypothesis and test it out if I can.

Respectfully,

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:36 AM   #17
Michael Hackett
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Ahmed,

Thank you for the reply. I've reviewed the video several times now and I remain skeptical. Hakim Sensei has terrific posture and small movement, but four points jumped out at me.

At :54 Uke displays visible pain and makes sounds to suggest that he is at least uncomfortable. At that point he is simply grasping the sleeve of the gi and Hakim Sensei is hardly moving.

At 1:10 Hakim Sensei is moving a line of uke. I can understand the first uke in line perhaps feeling a pain, but the next two are reacting as if they had direct contact with Hakim Sensei. They are only holding the shoulders of the uke ahead of them.

At 1:54 Hakim Sensei performs some sort of kokyunage to extreme effect, suggesting a strong collusion by Uke.

At 2:58 Uke displays a lack of physical control and pain without being in any contact with Hakim Sensei.

I've had the pleasure of putting hands on several shihan who did incredible things. Kondo Sensei locked my whole body with a ryotedori grasp. Ikeda Sensei threw me effortlessly by merely twisting his wrist less than an inch. Matsuoka Sensei threw me by pointing at the mat and dropping his weight inperceptibly. At the time, I was so new at Aikido I didn't know that you could collude with Nage so those things really happened to me. Consequently I don't doubt that Hakim Sensei can do some amazing things, but I have serious doubts about some of the things captured in the video.

I don't imagine that I will ever get to Indonesia to feel it first hand, but what is visible on the video simply defies a rational explanation. I appreciate your attempt to explain your experience, but I remain on the roster of the non-believers.

Michael
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:42 AM   #18
Fred Little
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
There is another 'master' in France - G.Blaize who is doing even more horrible things. But he is a direct student of Hikitsushi sensei.
Having taken a look at a few clips of Gerard Blaize on YouTube, I would have to say that there is very little relationship between what he is doing and what the gentleman in the first clip is doing, and it is a mystery to me what relevance M. Blaize has to this discussion, except to the extent that you dislike what he is doing even more and simply can't resist the opportunity to triple-down on the number of teachers outside the circle of whatever eminences you consider worthy of your more positive attention and tuition.

Best,

FL

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Old 03-24-2010, 02:12 PM   #19
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Having taken a look at a few clips of Gerard Blaize on YouTube, I would have to say that there is very little relationship between what he is doing and what the gentleman in the first clip is doing, and it is a mystery to me what relevance M. Blaize has to this discussion, except to the extent that you dislike what he is doing even more and simply can't resist the opportunity to triple-down on the number of teachers outside the circle of whatever eminences you consider worthy of your more positive attention and tuition.

Best,

FL
I'm not referring to his video on youtube. Few years ago I saw the tv program diffused on east coast. We could see him throwing his uke from a distance about 10 feet, uke not only fall dawn, but stay on the ground squirming his body in the sort of convulsions and couldn't get up.Then they went to Japan, to Hikitsushi sensei dojo, where sensei attempted to throw cameraman from a distance -- with no success.

Nagababa

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Old 03-24-2010, 06:28 PM   #20
Fred Little
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
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I'm not referring to his video on youtube. Few years ago I saw the tv program diffused on east coast. We could see him throwing his uke from a distance about 10 feet, uke not only fall dawn, but stay on the ground squirming his body in the sort of convulsions and couldn't get up.Then they went to Japan, to Hikitsushi sensei dojo, where sensei attempted to throw cameraman from a distance -- with no success.
Perhaps the program you're referring to is one of the DVDs in this set?

Many years ago, I saw a dan-level student of Hikitsuchi engaged in tachi-dori practice become very upset with his training partner, as he felt her attacks were insufficiently sincere. He insisted that if she gave him a sincere attack, he could perform tachidori with his eyes closed. He was quite insistent. She was somewhat reluctant. He closed his eyes. She attacked, quite well, with good speed and great sincerity. Bonk!

Oh well. Sometimes things work as if by magic. That's wonderful. Expecting magic to work? Not so wonderful.

On the other hand, everyone I've encountered who had body mechanics like those in the video had a whole bunch of something else in his back pocket. Even the ones with overly dramatic uke.

Maybe your personal experience has been different.

Best,

FL

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Old 03-24-2010, 07:15 PM   #21
Zach Trent
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Not going to add anything earth shattering, but I've stopped being too judgemental of Aikido videos because seeing Aikido on youtube kept me out of the dojo for about four years.

I would watch Aikido on youtube and dismiss it as phoney. Then I ran out of cash for Karate and tried Aikido because it was cheaper.

That was three years ago and now I'm a healthy addict of Aikido. Anyway, I learned to stop poking fun of people in videos- for the most part people are not idiots and if they are practicing that way it is for a reason- they are either learning a martial art or perhaps they learning something about themselves.

You gotta know, if those guys are paying for Aikido lessons they aren't gonna put up with fake crap just to get on youtube, right?

Either way- it isn't wise to call them fools.
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Old 03-24-2010, 07:42 PM   #22
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Szczepan,

I appreciate your candor and I understand you're a very realist person from all your previous posts. I also know you're a genuine person so I don't really mind your questioning. I wouldn't convert from a video and I don't expect you to. Geographical distance is a problem so, there's no way for you to experience this first hand. But there are plenty of great people around the world with similar skills, and maybe one day you'll meet one of them. They might probably do the same thing you see today and it might even work with you. Perhaps then you might come to a conclusion, that yes... there are things out there that do not look real but are in fact quite so. Until then you should continue disbelieving, because then you'll be keeping it real.

Marc,

Kenji Ushiro predominantly use Ashi Awase to unbalance his opponents (before contact) and then he proceeds to strike them. To most people who see this, they think the opponents are afraid of being striked by a ranking sensei and so they flinch. Most would attest to this if you ask them. Aiki is just obeying natural law. In this form, most would flinch as an automatic reaction, rather than a perceived reaction to an incoming strike. Its not magic, but its not preconditioned.

Michael,
1. I know, its ridiculous. Actually its not painful but more like a cramp. Body compression. Sort of when you find you have put yourself in a ludicrous position and don't know how to get out. And all you have to do is to release your stupid fingers but it won't listen to you.

2. I feel a bit presumptuous in adding a link of Okamoto Sensei DR in here... its like trying to hide behind a big brand name and say that you're doing the same thing as them. But around the 1.17 mark you can see something similar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4qXVdGKn9k
I'm not sure if he is credible in your eyes, but there are many DR practitioners in the US who can attest to his abilities.
How I feel at the back end of the line? It works quite well if you invest energy into the contact. But if you stand there disconnected from the uke in front, you won't feel much most times. Before you jump on that, the line demonstration is just that, a demonstration of connectivity. An exercise if you will that probably has no real practicality until you meet a queue of angry children holding hands to practice on. How I would feel at the front? There is no escape.

3. This stuff, I think most sensei's can demonstrate to you. Granted, they're not holding on to their dear life and they're taking ukemi. Most kokyunage is done in that manner one would think. The effect of someone not proficient in ukemi getting thrown this way is not what you expect. They don't fly or roll, usually I just see them hanging to sensei's sleeves until it rips or hands, but fall they do. Most times on their face.

4. He wasn't in pain. The feeling is akin to walking by your key holder on the wall, reaching for it and missing. And as you adjust your hands to grab it, the distance matches you imperceptibly until your weight collapses on you.

Ok. Hopefully whatever I'm doing in this Q&A session isn't wasting anyone's time. I'm only sharing what I'm capable of understanding. I know my knowledge and ability is limited so I'm afraid that I won't be able to give you a more accurate account.

In learning, we are taught that we can do it in 3 ways. We can learn through.
1. Seeing
2. Listening/reading
3. Feeling/doing
The 1st and 2nd correlates closely with theoretical knowledge, skill and form. Whilst the 3rd applies on muscle memory and instinct.
I'm a firm advocate that learning Aikido requires all 3 methods to be in place.

Lastly, hopefully I will have a more current an applicable clip to show you after this Sunday. I've tried getting some silat boys to come test him out, and a street fighter (my arnis teacher) to try him out. But they're not available that day somehow or rather. I've a guy with some systema and BJJ skills come over for the seminar as well, but I would say that he won't be a fair representative of those arts really. So its really a dilemma. You guys won't believe that he can do this to a real martial arts expert. I've seen him with those experts and those that have tried it out have no questions on his ability.

It all boils down to this. Has he something to teach me? Yes. Has he something to teach you? I wouldn't know. I think I can leave it at that and still be fair.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:03 PM   #23
Gorgeous George
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
2. I feel a bit presumptuous in adding a link of Okamoto Sensei DR in here... its like trying to hide behind a big brand name and say that you're doing the same thing as them. But around the 1.17 mark you can see something similar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4qXVdGKn9k
I've seen that clip before, and i watched it closely - most importantly the part where there is a line of people holding onto each other, he moves the first one, and they all end up going over...

I believe that it's legitimate (in this case): not only because he actually touches the people, and because the bit you reference (where he is lifted up by a load of people) is the same kind of thing i've seen the likes of Gozo Shioda and Koichi Tohei doing - but because of the way they react: compare the reaction of his ukes to the reaction of the people to the same thing in this clip (about 2 minutes in):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg

(Incidentally: when it came to a real fight, he didn't resort to 'ki balls' or whatever -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djUKq...eature=related)

I humbly suggest that his students paying for fake crap to get on YouTube.



EDIT: Here's a clip of the same Daito-Ryu guy doing the thing with an 'outsider':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8BcR...eature=related

Last edited by Gorgeous George : 03-24-2010 at 08:07 PM. Reason: Added a relevant clip.
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Old 03-24-2010, 10:16 PM   #24
Michael Hackett
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Ahmad,

Thank you for taking all the time to answer my questions. Having felt some "magic" from DR people, I don't discount strange things on the mat, but still have trouble with the "no touch" kinds of things that we see on video clips.

Michael
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:59 AM   #25
Marc Abrams
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Re: What is AIKI ? - fantastic video

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post

Marc,

Kenji Ushiro predominantly use Ashi Awase to unbalance his opponents (before contact) and then he proceeds to strike them. To most people who see this, they think the opponents are afraid of being striked by a ranking sensei and so they flinch. Most would attest to this if you ask them. Aiki is just obeying natural law. In this form, most would flinch as an automatic reaction, rather than a perceived reaction to an incoming strike. Its not magic, but its not preconditioned.
Ahmad:

Actually, Ushiro Sensei uses his ki before any movement actually occurs. As a direct student of Ushiro Sensei, I can personally attest to this experience. It is simply impossible to convey what happens on a video. What you assume to be ashi awase, is profoundly below the level with which he is functioning at. That was why I advocated that a person reserve final judgment until a person has some first hand experience with a teacher. The "flinch" experience is best described by one of Ledyard Sensei's "Aiki Koans"-> What is the timing of already? The person experiences "already" after it is way too late. Personally observing this type of interaction is interesting because it looks as if Ushiro Sensei's movements are simply too slow for a person to not be able to track his movement. Unlike most Aikido practice, the people attacking him are well-trained attackers who would simply overwhelm most Aikidoka with their attacks. Practicing with these people is always a humbling experience that forces you to have to always advance the level of your own personal practice in order to get better. Needless to say, it is having a very positive impact upon my Aikido!

Marc Abrams

Last edited by akiy : 03-25-2010 at 09:04 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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