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Old 08-07-2006, 11:42 AM   #201
Josh Lerner
 
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:

So my comment is that what you're looking for in relation to the kidney/fascia nexus may not necessarily be true; it may be more that the kidney-region represents more of a "storage" area.
So that brings up a whole 'nother topic - the crossover between physiology and mechanics. The lumbar area can be a mechanical storage area for the receiving and transmitting of forces in a martial context, but the kidneys themselves in Chinese medicine are also seen as physiological storage vessels for the basic yin and yang qi, and yuan qi, of the body. Whether those are two parallel but entirely coincidental ideas, or whether they are related to each other to various degrees based on the relationship between anatomy/mechanics/kinesiology and physiology, or whether they are actually the same thing but have gradually become misunderstood in China or the West over the last 2000 years, is a fascinating topic that I am completely unprepared to discuss.

If what I've heard about the kidneys and fascia isn't true, then great, no big deal. It would be an extra layer of icing on the cake, as far as I'm concerned. But we've still got the cake, and really, how much icing do we need?

Josh
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Old 08-07-2006, 11:56 AM   #202
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Josh Lerner wrote:
So that brings up a whole 'nother topic - the crossover between physiology and mechanics. The lumbar area can be a mechanical storage area for the receiving and transmitting of forces in a martial context, but the kidneys themselves in Chinese medicine are also seen as physiological storage vessels for the basic yin and yang qi, and yuan qi, of the body. Whether those are two parallel but entirely coincidental ideas, or whether they are related to each other to various degrees based on the relationship between anatomy/mechanics/kinesiology and physiology, or whether they are actually the same thing but have gradually become misunderstood in China or the West over the last 2000 years, is a fascinating topic that I am completely unprepared to discuss.

If what I've heard about the kidneys and fascia isn't true, then great, no big deal. It would be an extra layer of icing on the cake, as far as I'm concerned. But we've still got the cake, and really, how much icing do we need?
It's a tricky area and I'm afraid to do more than offer opinions when we're this deep in a complex topic. The qi-paradigm is explicative, and not something that at core can be used to predict a lot of things (actually, because it has a logic of its own, some things can be predicted, as *some* aspects of martial physiology and acupuncture show, but not all). Since the basic premise of of universal qi/ki doesn't really pan out in the closely studied real world, it had to be dropped eventually, but along the way while everything was manipulated in an attempt to make the qi-paradigm work, some bogus relationships developed. My problem is that at some levels of knowledge, it's difficult to say sometimes what is real and what is not. Since I only have a mediocre expertise, I'm afraid to guess some things.... in the past, some of my guesses have turned out to be wrong, so I'm much slower to guess nowadays.

What I'm saying, having said all that pre-ramble, is that I don't know for sure, but my experience and knowledge to date suggests that some of the kidney inferences were an attempt to explain a physical process that they knew to be true. What's interesting is that if you accept that logic, then the implication is that the whole qi, etc., theory in relation to the human body goes back much further than we're assuming. Oh well, now it's way to complex to discuss on this forum. Insofar as Aikido and Japan are concerned, probably none of this is germane to any time prior to 500-700AD. How germane it was then is hard to say.

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Mike
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Old 08-14-2006, 01:43 PM   #203
tedehara
 
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ian Thake wrote:
...We seem back to arguing from something I though we were supposed to be arguing for?

Rgds,

Ian
I think you're taking many of the article's statements as conclusive. I believe the researchers went to great pains to show their results as tentative. They outlined traditonal Chinese theory and suggested what they called practical alternatives. While these theories are similiar to traditonal Chinese medicine, they are alternative models.

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Old 08-14-2006, 02:05 PM   #204
tedehara
 
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
However, Ted, it was you opining that I had made it up about the "fascia-related" structures, wasn't it? Are you willing to stipulate that I was right?

And BTW, the "fascia-related structures" is a phrase I use to indicate subtly that there's a bit more to it... but that's a longer story than I want to get into. The thing to bear in mind is that the "fascia" or "connective tissue", etc., are basically collagenous structures. Qigongs, Misogi breathing exercises, etc., work these collagenous structures in several ways, but one of those ways is to stretch and contract, causing the tissues to become thicker, stronger, etc. Even the bones, which are about 50% collagen are noted as "becoming denser" with prolonged conditioning through qigong practice. It's an interesting area of study you might look into.

Regards,

Mike
I am certainly willing to agree, only because of the lack of definition in the original texts. They could be talking about anything between skin and marrow. The fact that they didn't have a copy of Gray's Anatomy when they wrote about Qi, makes it read like mystical wisdom, rather than ancient superstitions.

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Old 08-14-2006, 02:19 PM   #205
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
The fact that they didn't have a copy of Gray's Anatomy when they wrote about Qi, makes it read like mystical wisdom, rather than ancient superstitions.
The oldest writings pinpoint this to the "connective tissue". It's difficult for me to believe, either. How did they know that? Just how old is this stuff? Think about all the quasi-religious performances throughout Asia that have something to do with hooks in the skin, the toughness of the skin, the skin taking blows, etc., etc. Think about how toughening your knuckles on a makiwara is considered not so refined as only "using you qi" to train the hand. It gets fun.

Mike
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Old 08-22-2006, 09:32 AM   #206
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Re: What is the One Point?

A recent study of acupuncture that indicates needle placement is not crucial.
Acupuncture helps with joint pain

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Old 10-09-2006, 07:33 AM   #207
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Re: What is the One Point?

You can read about the German study at Annals of Internal Medicine Acupuncture and Knee Osteoarthritis . This is an extremely important study since the sponsors are German Medical Insurance Companies. They funded this study to determine if they would pay for acupuncture treatments as a medical claim.

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Old 10-09-2006, 07:54 AM   #208
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is the One Point?

That's a good article, Ted. Thanks for posting it. There was a large-scale study by the NIH arm of the US government that basically said acupuncture did not do too well on tests of its efficacy. Personally, I'm not a big acupuncture fan, but I also have a slight mental reservation about these tests in Germany and the U.S. that I'll share. I would feel more comfortable with the tests if they'd been done in two countries, the U.S. and in China... and then a comparison of the results studied.

The reason I say that I that I think most western acupuncturists are about as expert as many Aikido, Taiji, etc., teachers in the West are experts in heavy-duty martial arts. In other words, there are a lot of people "doing acupuncture" who probably only have a superficial mastery of the subject. They know the words, can manipulate the needles, know the theories vaguely, etc...... sound familiar?

So in my mind I hold open the possibility that acupuncture done by experts might yield a somewhat different test result, although I simply don't know that for sure. Certainly I feel a little uneasy about a test that involved mostly western acupuncturists with only a couple of years of training.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 03-17-2010, 06:56 AM   #209
bulevardi
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Re: What is the One Point?

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Do ideas exist in reality or do they not exist at all?

Who is the judge of what is really real and what is not?
Well, Ki could be an idea, a thought, a belief.
Same as God would be Ki.
I'm reading a Tohei book about Ki at the moment and as I am sceptical to things that aren't really proven with a ki-meter yet, I could change every 'ki'-word in the book by the 'god'-word.
Fun to read when everytime Ki is replace by God. You should try it, it's reading like a bible...

In books about Ki it's always said as an imaginary power. As in 'imagine that ki flows through your arm and your arm is a fire hose'.
In those books it's also written that you sit in seiza with hands on your legs. And if you are relaxed, no muscles tentioned, maintained One-Point, no one can move your hand upwards. Because you think your hand can't go upwards, it's not possible to go upwards. "It you think A, A will happen,...If A is not happening, you didn't maintain One-Point."

That's like saying 'concentrate on your One-Point and imagine the walls are painted blue'.
If the walls turn blue, you maintained One-Point and Ki. If they didn't turn blue, you didn't concentrate that well and didn't maintain your One-Point.
Why wouldn't it work? Ki is aswel in the walls, Ki is universal in every particle.

If I read those books it's like the author tries to brainwash me into something supernatural I have to believe. It is like a sect.
And lots of other people who quit Aikido have told me to quit because it's a sect. Wether it's Oomoto-Kyo or Ki or other stuff...
That's why I'm always critical when it's about suspicious subjects like Ki.

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