Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-02-2010, 05:43 PM   #26
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Shareef Muhammad wrote:
As I understand the Aikido terminology, the "kyo" in Ikkyo, nikyo etc. refers to a "concept" or "principle".

Ikkyo = Ude osae
Nikyo = Tekubi mawashi
Sankyo = Kote Hineri
Yonkyo = Tekubi osae

What is the "concept" or "principle" of Gokyo?
and
Quote:
Shareef Muhammad wrote:
Ude osae = arm pin
tekubi mawashi = wrist (turn)around (sorry, exact translation is probably off).
kote hineri = wrist twist (i think)
Tekubi osae = wrist pin
OK. But equating the "kyo's" to alternate Japanese nomenclature then translating to crude English descriptions doesn't really point to the "lesson" or "principle."

To appreciate these principles, it is necessary to divorce them from their full kihon waza forms.

They are all fundamentally different ways to manipulate the arm/wrist/elbow. Ikkyo uses the elbow with its natural movement, nikyo over-rotates the radius with the hand directed back at the body (adduction), sankyo is an internal rotation of the forearm, yonkyo uses the ulnar or radial nerves, gokyo hyper-flexes the wrist -- palm towards elbow, and rokkyo uses the elbow against its natural movement.

It's probably a good idea to consider at least kote gaeshi (external rotation of the forearm) and mae otoshi (similar to rokkyo, but lifting) along with these.

By looking at them this light, the ways in which they complement each other and their usefulness become clearer.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2010, 07:49 AM   #27
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Michael, your post above was truly a great post in that what you are saying totally jives with teachings about "the wisdom of the shoulder", "the wisdom of the elbow", etc... So please take this as constructive crtisism. I'm simply not convinced that your excellent way of thinking in and of itself rates as a principle. (Although it is among some of the finest examples of thinking about martial arts I have read on aikiweb.)

To me, a principle must satisfy the whole "as above so below and as below so above" concept. Basically, all principles are meta-principles of the principle of correspondance.

I think for what we learn in martial arts, training an aiki body to be able support and power vectors that wouldn't otherwise be possible is where we get to the principles behind the techniques (regardless of how sophistocated we are thinking about the wisdom of the techniques themselves).

It's really a combination of "aiki body", "wisdom of joints", experience of martial vectors, and simply martial experience in general of where am I planning to take this (neutralizing for peace, level-appropriate destruction for peace, avoidance for escape, etc.).

Saotome sensei talks about kihon mind as apposed to kihon waza. Lately, I'm focusing more on kihon body to support that kihon mind... To me, that's the principle of every kyo...

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2010, 08:28 AM   #28
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

good posts Michael and Rob,
Thanks,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 06:41 PM   #29
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
The gokkyo I am referring to is illustrated below:


I believe that Yoshinkan's hiji-osae or hiji kime osae is known as ude-hishigi (at least in the book by Nidai Doshu that I cited above) and is also called "rokkyo" in a lot of dojos.
You are mistaken here.The name Gokyo is translated as 5th principle.ie Go=5 Kyo=Principle.
Rokkyo is translated as 6th Principle.
Gokyo immobilisation is not the same as illustration.Illustration is Rokkyo.In Gokyo [usually against a tanto waza] your hand hold is on the inside of your partners wrist with your thumb at the leading edge of your partners wrist at heel of hand [little finger side].Gokyo is rarely if ever done as an omote waza.Contact is palm of your hand to inside of ukes wrist.Not like ikkyo.
Rokkyo is done by inside arm controlling opponents arm [a bit like tsuki Kote gaeshi ] the using a tenkan motion , place your elbow over topof ukes elbow joint , control wrist with your other hand and then exert pressure /torque on uke elbow.also using rotational body movement at the same time.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 07:33 PM   #30
CitoMaramba
 
CitoMaramba's Avatar
Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Philippines
Offline
Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Curran Sensei, the picture I originally linked to illustrate gokkyo was removed from the web. I have located another version and am posting it below:


I trust that this is now correct. Thank you for your comments.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
You are mistaken here.The name Gokyo is translated as 5th principle.ie Go=5 Kyo=Principle.
Rokkyo is translated as 6th Principle.
Gokyo immobilisation is not the same as illustration.Illustration is Rokkyo.In Gokyo [usually against a tanto waza] your hand hold is on the inside of your partners wrist with your thumb at the leading edge of your partners wrist at heel of hand [little finger side].Gokyo is rarely if ever done as an omote waza.Contact is palm of your hand to inside of ukes wrist.Not like ikkyo.
Rokkyo is done by inside arm controlling opponents arm [a bit like tsuki Kote gaeshi ] the using a tenkan motion , place your elbow over topof ukes elbow joint , control wrist with your other hand and then exert pressure /torque on uke elbow.also using rotational body movement at the same time.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 02:32 AM   #31
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Curran Sensei, the picture I originally linked to illustrate gokkyo was removed from the web. I have located another version and am posting it below:


I trust that this is now correct. Thank you for your comments.
Dear Inocencio,
Your freshly posted illustrations [ from Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere] do indeed show Gokkyo.The second last illustration is the normal pin [in suwariwaza].This pin method enables tori to exert pressure on Ukes wrist joint forcing Uke to release any potential weapon which uke might have.
Rokkyo on the other and forces the uke to release any weapon held by application of pressure to ukes elbow joint in a [TachiWaza] standing position.Nice to meet you by the way.
I hope my little comments help here, All the best , Joe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 05:42 AM   #32
CitoMaramba
 
CitoMaramba's Avatar
Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Philippines
Offline
Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Curran Sensei,
Thank you again for your comments, they are quite helpful. I did practice before at a British Birankai club (then British Aikikai) at the University of Warwick and at the Ei Mei Kan under Chris Mooney Sensei in Birmingham. This was in 2000-2001. I also attended Ichiro Shibata Sensei's seminar in Birmingham in 2000.
I train mostly in Plymouth and Swansea now but I look forward to meeting you in person sometime soon.
Best wishes,

Inocencio (Cito)

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 11:14 AM   #33
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Curran Sensei,
Thank you again for your comments, they are quite helpful. I did practice before at a British Birankai club (then British Aikikai) at the University of Warwick and at the Ei Mei Kan under Chris Mooney Sensei in Birmingham. This was in 2000-2001. I also attended Ichiro Shibata Sensei's seminar in Birmingham in 2000.
I train mostly in Plymouth and Swansea now but I look forward to meeting you in person sometime soon.
Best wishes,

Inocencio (Cito)
Dear Inocencio,
I note you know Mr Mooney /Mr Ian Grubb , both colleagues of mine.I will be seeing them this weekend .I had the privilege and pleasure of visiting Warwick Uni Aikido section where I had a brilliant time with the young enthusiastic skilful students.I wish you well and I hope perhaps we may meet some time.
All the best , Joe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2010, 12:09 AM   #34
WilliB
Dojo: Minato Aikikai
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 143
Japan
Offline
Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
The gokkyo I am referring to is illustrated below:


I believe that Yoshinkan's hiji-osae or hiji kime osae is known as ude-hishigi (at least in the book by Nidai Doshu that I cited above) and is also called "rokkyo" in a lot of dojos.
That ainīt a gokyo where I train (Aikikai, Tokyo). That is a 6-kyo, or technically a wakigatame.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2010, 03:48 AM   #35
CitoMaramba
 
CitoMaramba's Avatar
Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Philippines
Offline
Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
That ainīt a gokyo where I train (Aikikai, Tokyo). That is a 6-kyo, or technically a wakigatame.
You are correct. Thank you.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gokyo vs Ikkyo mdsmith Techniques 9 12-16-2008 08:38 AM
Gokyo-why? Steve Morabito Techniques 65 11-26-2006 06:18 PM
From Ikkyo to Gokyo ikkitosennomusha Techniques 7 03-24-2004 06:58 PM
Gokyo or Rokyo? Genex Techniques 7 08-19-2002 02:38 AM
Gokyo JWest Techniques 1 07-14-2001 06:29 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:07 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate