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Old 02-23-2010, 02:45 PM   #51
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: Jamming a technique

Personally, for me I find the times I learn most from someone exploiting the holes in my technique is when it's a technique I already have some basic understanding of, and the better I already know it, the more often the benefits of people doing countertechniques or occasionally messing up my technique do seem to appear. I already find it helpful far more often now as a 2nd kyu than I ever did as a 5th kyu - I can imagine if I ever get anywhere near your level, Stephane, it'll be yet another thing altogether. It's sort of like with learning other things -- you are better able to think critically or solve problems or develop theories the more you've learned the basic facts and principles that make up a body of knowledge. It all starts with the basics, before you can learn to think for yourself. But I guess that's in part what many of us seem to more or less agree on -- it's not necessarily always going to be helpful to someone who's just walked in on their first day, and it should be important for an advanced student, the question is where along the way between those two do you start, and how much? (and part of the different experiences in this thread may be partly because of the different stages people posting are at in their learning - some of the mentioned ones were mukyu, 5th kyu, 2nd kyu - 5th dan -- big range!)

One thing I tend to find really useful, and have from fairly early on in my training, is if someone's showed me the right way to do something, and I've practiced it several times carefully and got it OK, _then_ the next time I do it wrong, they exploit my mistake -- that really helps cement the idea, especially if they then give me another chance to do it right.

I guess in part it depends what the goals are in learning (technical principles, attitude, other), and what stage that individual is in learning -- sometimes learning 'just humility' can be useful in its own sake, I guess -- to change an attitude or change a person's motivation. I've just a couple of times met some training partners before (usually not the most advanced ones - most often higher ranked white belts) who seemed _too_ addicted to the idea and used it clumsily, especially when training with people far more beginner than them (whose techniques they could easily fully block no matter what the beginner attempted). Thankfully, that extreme is comparatively rare and I would think having an experience like that now and then has a different effect on a person then training primarily in that sort of situation.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 02-23-2010 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:18 PM   #52
David Yap
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello, david
Nope rest assured that you are not a jammer, from what you say you are being unilaterally awkward and deserve every bit of the pounding you are getting and in my personal opinion you should probably get a good deal more.

You take the gloves off by putting some resistance without cheeking with your partner may be he trying to work on his movement or flow and the last thing he needs a numb-nuts resisting.

I am all for resistance training but there is a place and a time and it need to be bilateral and agreed upon from the onset.

You would laugh if I said that I am going full on all the time because I want to give my partner a good ukemi practice and if I was wondering why people call me a beast.
Well resisting without telling is exactly the same.

Phil
Hi Phil,

Based on what you wrote, when is it a good time to begin the practice of aiki in Aiki-do? I cherish every moment I spent on the mats and I trust my training partners but the trust is broken once they decide to hurt me after I have given in to their waza.

You will probably laugh your head off if you realise that the peers who branded me a jammer are a head taller than me and 25 or more kilo heavier than me and can out muscle me anytime they want to. One or two will not hesitate to put their 80-90 kilo bodyweight on my elbow in a nikkyu lock with less than 6 inches of space between the face and the mat. They will not hesitate to remove your hand from the wrist in sankyu. For shihonage or iriminage, if you are lucky, their follow through can be just 3 inches about the mat, if not, it is 3 inches below the mat. All these, they won't be telling you and so much for good ukeme practice. If you are beast, then I don't know what to call them. At the moment, they are just Pain, Painer and Painest. BTW, Painer and Painest are the Yoshinkan guys disguised as aikikai beginners.

Hope to see you on the mats.

David Y

Last edited by David Yap : 02-23-2010 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:05 AM   #53
Lonin
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
Hi Phil,

You will probably laugh your head off if you realise that the peers who branded me a jammer are a head taller than me and 25 or more kilo heavier than me and can out muscle me anytime they want to. One or two will not hesitate to put their 80-90 kilo bodyweight on my elbow in a nikkyu lock with less than 6 inches of space between the face and the mat. They will not hesitate to remove your hand from the wrist in sankyu. For shihonage or iriminage, if you are lucky, their follow through can be just 3 inches about the mat, if not, it is 3 inches below the mat. All these, they won't be telling you and so much for good ukeme practice. If you are beast, then I don't know what to call them. At the moment, they are just Pain, Painer and Painest. BTW, Painer and Painest are the Yoshinkan guys disguised as aikikai beginners.

David Y
David,
It may well be a clash of styles if your yoshinkan peers are branding you a jammer. BTW do these yoshinkan people really say you jam them?....strange! cos up here it is usually the other way around. Again, it is a clash of styles and development. Yoshinkan aikido builds stability first and fluidity in movement much later (IMHO). With this, intermediate yoshinkan is characterised by huge doses of resistance training, but usually this type of training is cherished (by the yoshiners) and not a matter to argue over. If the akikaiers complain....then it makes a bit more sense.
Moreover the P,Pner & Pnest cannot be "Yoshinkan" as nikajo is mostly done with hands extended 'kamae' so not very likely bodyweight can be applied to uke's elbow. Even from "kata mochi" both shite's hands are on uke's wrists.
Similarly for iriminage, yoshiners have been called robots/zombies here with the final zanshin(stance) with both arms and back leg extended. Definitely finishing more than three inches off the matt for normal practioners and more still if they are 25kgs heavier and half a head taller than you.
Yoshinkan sangkajo is mostly a single handed "pistol grip" lock with thumb and forefinger extended (opened) and usually less "tearing" than the double handed "wringing" or the lower hand twist of uke's fingers towards the armpits. The sangkajo nage is led by uprooting with less of the whipping down.
Shihonage, I agree as it is the yoshinkan practice of taking it all the way down to the mat with one final slide of four/five feet. Not vertically down though, so ukemi is still very "do"able.
You best check cos maybe your peers are akikai BEASTS putting on yoshinkan airs to disguise themselves as akikai beginers.
Happy training OSU!
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:20 AM   #54
David Yap
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
Loh On Nin wrote: View Post
...You best check cos maybe your peers are akikai BEASTS putting on yoshinkan airs to disguise themselves as akikai beginers.
Happy training OSU!
Hi Loh,

Thanks for the insight of Yoshinkan practice. I have trained with many Yoshinkan with good flowing techniques. Joe Thambu shihan's waza is just as mystical as some of our Aikikai shihan. The aikido clinic conducted by Inoue hanshi and Ando shihan in PD was great and I am looking forward to the next one. During the clinic, Ando shihan emphasized that "bumping" or "jecking" should be avoided in the techniques. But Painer, who is 101% Yoshinkan and -1% aikikai, trains otherwise.

If you have attended the clinic, I am sure that you have met Painer and Painest.

BTW, the beastly techniques are not confined to Painer and Painest. They are also the hallmarks of some of my aikikai peers. Let's keep to the topic of jamming.

David
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:16 PM   #55
jonreading
 
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Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
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Re: Jamming a technique

To me, jamming is the placement of an obstacle to prevent the execution of technique. I hear lots of judo players and MM artists talk about using their bodies to restrict their opponent's movement or restrict their opponent's ability to escape a technique, especially in dynamic movements. So it this sense of the definition, jamming is only a component of a tactic...what do you after you successfully jam your opponent? Jamming has its place as an entry into other dynamic movement (which I will not call kaishi waza...yet.)

I believe often aikido people [ab]use jamming because they do not know a logical conclusion to successfully jamming their partner. Once we stop our partner, we do not know what next to do so we end up hunkering down satisfied in our obstenance. Our stunned partner ends up with no energy; the kinetic energy was stopped and we are not providing any potential energy. The one-technique training style of aikido (kihon waza and sometime nagare waza) sometimes leaves newer students vulnerable to this type of exchange because they do not regularly train in a continuing format (henka waza) and are not able to spontaneously move into another technique.

In that measure, what are you learning by jamming your partner? Are you countering with a technique of your own? What is your partner learning? Is your partnering learning how to avoid being jammed? There is great training derived from these questions, but often not for beginning students who are trying to learn the basic movement mechanics. Nor for more advanced students to whom you cannot successfully jam on multiple occassions to create a consistent learning environment.

In short, jamming is not a problem as long as you and your partner have similar expectations and you can create a consistent learning environment to gain from the experience. Most of us in normal training cannot accomplish these elements and therefore we end up frustrated with the experience outcome (which neither meets our expectations nor can be reproduced for further evaluation).
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:33 AM   #56
David Yap
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Re: Jamming a technique

Good post, Jon.
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:17 PM   #57
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
Hi Phil,

Based on what you wrote, when is it a good time to begin the practice of aiki in Aiki-do? I cherish every moment I spent on the mats and I trust my training partners but the trust is broken once they decide to hurt me after I have given in to their waza.

You will probably laugh your head off if you realise that the peers who branded me a jammer are a head taller than me and 25 or more kilo heavier than me and can out muscle me anytime they want to. One or two will not hesitate to put their 80-90 kilo bodyweight on my elbow in a nikkyu lock with less than 6 inches of space between the face and the mat. They will not hesitate to remove your hand from the wrist in sankyu. For shihonage or iriminage, if you are lucky, their follow through can be just 3 inches about the mat, if not, it is 3 inches below the mat. All these, they won't be telling you and so much for good ukeme practice. If you are beast, then I don't know what to call them. At the moment, they are just Pain, Painer and Painest. BTW, Painer and Painest are the Yoshinkan guys disguised as aikikai beginners.

Hope to see you on the mats.

David Y
hello david
Sure and and in the quiet words from brick-top if I bugger off to tibet, there will be a bunch of nutters, from Pakhurst, in Yeti suits waiting for me up everest with meat cleavers to chop me chubby legs off.

is not obvious to you that the thrust is boken when you resit what they are trying to do without their concent or at least telling then.
you know harmony is really working from the same hymn sheet.

You make your tori look and feel shiet and hence he buries you into the mat. Fair play to them.

Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 02-25-2010, 09:44 PM   #58
David Yap
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
...
You make your tori look and feel shiet and hence he buries you into the mat. Fair play to them.Phil
Hi Phil,

So you saying that it is an ego issue and their action is justifiable. Which means I am dead meat whether I resist or not. Now I understand why some guys are only good at dishing but are not good/reluctant to be at the receiving end.

David Y

PS, May I know how long you have playing or training?

Last edited by David Yap : 02-25-2010 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 02-26-2010, 09:08 PM   #59
David Yap
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Re: Jamming a technique

Hi Phil,

This is a continuation of post#58. Don't get me wrong, I am not implying that all my peers habitually dish out brute techniques. Some of us have diverse MA background and we practice aikido under different teachers at different dojo. Most time, I observe, the ones without other MA experience are the most brutish. Some have the arrogant perception of martial integrity but yet one can read their intentions miles away.

David Y
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:26 AM   #60
Lonin
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
Hi Loh,
I have trained with many Yoshinkan with good flowing techniques. Joe Thambu shihan's waza is just as mystical as some of our Aikikai shihan. The aikido clinic conducted by Inoue hanshi and Ando shihan in PD Ando shihan emphasized that "bumping" or "jecking" should be avoided in the techniques. But Painer, who is 101% Yoshinkan and -1% aikikai, trains otherwise.
Let's keep to the topic of jamming.

David
It's Chida, and he is up there ( with shihan Joe Thambu and hanshi Inoue) on another plane. Good for you for your many training inferences, but sadly most of us can only dream......
so now you only jam bigger arrogant nage brutes without other MA experiences who telegragphs their intentions......hmm interesting
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Old 03-03-2010, 07:24 AM   #61
AsimHanif
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 485
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Re: Jamming a technique

Not reading through the whole thread forgive me if I'm being redundant.
To me, 'jamming' is when uke intentionally gives a different energy than is called for to practice the principle being studied at the time.
My solution is to take what they give me.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:21 AM   #62
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
Location: Reading, UK
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Re: Jamming a technique

Hi again,

A few classes down the line from the start of this thread, I've been subconsciously considering this 'jamming' thing in my own practise..

I think some folk consider that I may be jamming them when they:

a) Initially take my balance then put me back onto a strong posture through thier next movements
b) Try to move me in a direction where I am already in a strong posture (ie my skeleton and muscles are in good alignment, and moving me in that direction is going to be hard work, even through I'm not all that big or strong)
c) Simply don't take my balance at all and leave me standing upright on my feet (again in good posture)

Some tori appreciate my honesty, some don't understand why 'it's not working' although I do always explain eg 'You didn't take my balance, try to enter or turn further' or 'You are going through my strongest line, this is where I am weak, try moving that way'.

I could just fall over for them (taking my own balance) which I will do with complete novices who are only managing an approximation of the technique because it's their second class, ever but do not see the value to tori if I do so for somebody who has been training for 6 months or more..

At this stage in my development, if uke's balance isn't broken, it isn't Aikido

Ruth
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Old 03-04-2010, 01:17 AM   #63
David Yap
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
Loh On Nin wrote: View Post
It's Chida, and he is up there ( with shihan Joe Thambu and hanshi Inoue) on another plane. Good for you for your many training inferences, but sadly most of us can only dream......
so now you only jam bigger arrogant nage brutes without other MA experiences who telegragphs their intentions......hmm interesting
Loh,

Yes, Chida it was. Must be dementia from getting all bumps on head. Hey, for the umpteen time, I am no jammer. When a nage changes his role from defending to attacking then my role as an uke become a nage.

Regards

David Y
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Old 03-04-2010, 01:19 AM   #64
David Yap
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Re: Jamming a technique

Quote:
Ruth Rae wrote: View Post
...At this stage in my development, if uke's balance isn't broken, it isn't Aikido
Precisely, Ruth.
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