Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-26-2010, 01:36 PM   #26
donhebert
Dojo: River Valley Aikido
Location: Vermont
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 47
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Hi Mark,

Thanks for raising some interesting questions.

Most everyone seems to agree that O'Sensei had developed a considerable amount of internal power that manifested in his Aikido. Furthermore, it sounds plausible that he learned how to get there from his studies in Daito ryu. However, it may be that the reason that this sort of training was not handed down to future Aikidoists was because Ueshiba himself did not encourage it in a practical way. I recall a story from somewhere that O'Sensei once came upon a group of his students who trying to make the techniques work martially and were struggling with one another. He became annoyed saying that he had spent a lifetime studying these things so they didn't have to start there. O'sensei was, evidently, interested in something else. My own sense is that he was deeply exploring how this training could connect his essence to the greater universe from whence he was born and back to which he must die. It is possible that his interest in Internal Power dropped away in this pursuit along with a lot of things. In any case, most of his direct students couldn't understand what the dickens he was talking about when he lectured and he certainly didn't develop a clear method for his students to follow for increasing internal power.

I don't mean to dismiss anyone's interest in pursuing this direction. There is nothing in it that I can see that is contrary to Aikido practice - Indeed it can only enrich it. I just raise the possibility that internal training wasn't central to O'Sensei's spiritual quest and therefore only remains in today's Aikido in vestiges.

Best regards,
Don Hebert
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 02:37 PM   #27
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,566
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

I should also toss something else out... Mark, in rereading your posts I get the feeling you are looking to see if there is a connection with these things (as in aiki as IS) back into koryu arts. I think there is little doubt that aspects of IS go way back. Of what I've seen from Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu via Toby Threadgill seems to have a strong underlying component of much the same stuff. And to add the observation that there have always been "exceptional" martial artists throughout history. I would think there have long been those who've keyed into aspects of these things in various ways and to various extents. I am not at all surprised to see bits and pieces of the Sumo stomp done as a solo exercise. A lot of movements I've seen Toby do on more than one occasion are quite reminiscent of some really subtle grounding, connection, frame sort of body training. And yes, these are things people can "sorta" do without even remotely "getting" the deeper subtle things. Which leaves a guy like me, not part of the ryu, wondering how much more there really is there that I'll never learn. (As an aside I keep trying to figure out a way to arrange my life so I could devote the time to be able to commit with a clear conscience to training with his group out here -- but life is a bitch some times). Anyway, the point being that I don't think it is terribly controversial to say that aspects of IS existed and exists today in some Koryu. How it is taught, understood, and passed along is a completely different question, however.

As another example, well, T. Kuroda and some of his work is just so obviously well grounded and powerful in my eyes. I can't believe anyone would think he doesn't have a lot of this stuff. And by all accounts his students are exceptional as well, so he doesn't seem to have much trouble passing it along.

But... Aikido is a big world. Exactly what made it blossom and grow with K Ueshiba also in part precipitated the split of Tohei and others. Heck, our group subsequently split off from Tohei after a decade or two to focus on "ki development" even though our sensei was the Chief Lecturer of Ki Development and the Chief Instructor of Shinshin Toitsu Aikido of the Ki Society Western USA. So not everyone was as focused on the same aspects of the very large thing Aikido became. Or maybe more accurately the weighting of the multiple priorities within aikido varies quite a bit. I guess my point is that speaking of Aikido as one art strikes me as incredibly oversimplified. There are aiki-bunnies and fire-breathing dragons out there in the world of Aikido. And quite frankly each group has its own "raison d'etre". More power to 'em all!

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 04:03 PM   #28
Chris Covington
 
Chris Covington's Avatar
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 73
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Re: left handed and katate swordsmanship.

Every Sat. morning while waiting my turn to practice Jikishinkage-ryu I am lucky enough to watch some very good Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. An unusual feature of some of their kata is switching the grip on the sword to a left handed grip. At a certain point the left hand is next to the tsuba and the right hand is down by the kashira. This allows for some very interesting maai. I've never heard of it being done for any IS developmental reasons.

Many ryu also have one handed cuts within the kata. I think Yagyu calls theirs oni-tachi (devil sword or something like that). There are a number of clever uses of the left hand in Jikishinkage-ryu creating one handed cuts (although not seen in the kata they are there). Katate jodan is also popular in kendo for jodan players as it gives them good maai.

In modern kendo gyaku nito is the most popular, that is the daito in the left hand and the shoto in the right hand. As I understand it it is much easier to learn for many kendoka because it becomes a mix of katate jodan and kodachi kata. Yagyu has sei and gyaku nito in Tengusho (?). Daito-ryu nito is interesting.

I really don't have much time to go into the topic more fully but I believe that Sokaku sensei's nito came from Sakakibara sensei's influence. My theory is that Sakakibara encouraged nito training because it drew crowds to his gekken shows. If memory serves me another one of Sakakibara's student a Mr. Okumura founded a school called Okumura Nito-ryu. Nito kendo was much more popular pre-war than it is today.

None of the arts I know about use left hand, single handed or nito to develop any IS. They are all heiho. That doesn't mean certain skills are not developed by training this way but I don't think it is the goal. I'd be interested in hearing more about nito and katate in aikido.

Best regards,

Chris Covington
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 05:00 PM   #29
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,566
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Chris Covington wrote: View Post
Re: left handed and katate swordsmanship.

Every Sat. morning while waiting my turn to practice Jikishinkage-ryu I am lucky enough to watch some very good Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. An unusual feature of some of their kata is switching the grip on the sword to a left handed grip. At a certain point the left hand is next to the tsuba and the right hand is down by the kashira. This allows for some very interesting maai. I've never heard of it being done for any IS developmental reasons.
Thanks for that, Chris, very interesting. I'd love to see that someday.

I should clarify where I'm coming from after having read back through everything again. I was reading Mark's threads with a view of things as being symmetrical. So in my mind I was thinking in terms of training with a relatively balanced and symmetrical development of skills in swordsmanship (implying development of IS as well in the process). Obviously in most styles there are some cuts and kata done one-handed (after all, most iai kata start with a draw/cut sequence one-handed), but there's not a focus on doing things symmetrically from side to side which would be what you'd expect if the kata is intended (in part) as a means of developing symmetrical IS skills. There are times when you to do certain movements one-handed (including the thrusts behind you like in shiho giri). And there are some kata that have reverse-handed handling, but my understanding is that they are still considered "reversed" from the norm. In other words, there is still a "correct" way to hold the sword. Hands are reversed due to "special circumstances" so it's not like the sword is used equally with both grips (which is what you'd expect if the idea was to develop IS skills using these methods).

I think Mark's point was that Ueshiba tended to switch hand to hand rather frequently and developed both sides with his bokken. While I can certainly believe that may have been due to his desire to develop his aiki skills symmetrically, I don't think the "training on both sides as a means of developing IS" would have come from reversed grip/one handed cuts in swordsmanship in general as those are more special case scenarios.

But I was also channeling other discussions I've been in over the years about "why can't I do my iai the way I want since I'm left-handed".

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2010, 09:48 AM   #30
mickeygelum
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
mickeygelum's Avatar
Dojo: Warren Budokan, Ohio USA
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 502
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Hello Mark,

Quote:
There's a video of Dr. Lee (Tomiki lineage) showing an exercise where two people are at arm's length. Each one has their right hand out, crossing and touching at the wrist.
That is a flow drill, Shotei to be specific, not a "push test". It is comparable to "Tapi-Tapi" in the aspect of tactile sensitivity, except full body. That was the beginner version, there is much more than what was demonstrated in the video you are referencing.

Quote:
Ever see pics or vids of Tomiki in the pose I mentioned in #1? Shioda? So, why not? What happened? Or did they at some point? They're gone, so we can't ask them.
I have video of Ueshiba and Tomiki in those transitions, not really a pose or a posture, persay. Oddly enough, it is the center and centerline that are being targeted and employed. Believe it or not, those motions are weapons transitons and employment. I read in another thread that the centerline and balance disruption or taking is unimportant in relation to weapons. So, I guess might provide an indication "why" training is not at a high standard elsewhere.

Quote:
Perhaps things were altered, changed, modified. But, who remembers?
There are many who know, and there are those that fraudulently purport to have been given the knowledge. Those individuals have altered Aikido/Aikibudo by adapting their systems to accommodate their shortcomings. Such is life.

Train well,

Mickey
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2010, 12:01 PM   #31
Dieter Haffner
 
Dieter Haffner's Avatar
Dojo: Tai Wa Lokeren, Budokai Mechelen
Location: Lokeren
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 114
Belgium
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Concerning: One hand up, pointing upwards with one hand down, pointing downwards.

Tamura sensei does an exercise during warmup where he points one hand up and the other one down while focusing on his breading. I wish I knew what he was doing internally, but he does not explain that mutch (or I am just not able to understand his teachings). So with the little experience I have with Chinees internal arts, I try to open my body bit by bit from the ground up. The hand positions will keep me focused on opening my entire body to the sky and also to the ground.

Shimamoto sensei performs tenchi nage in a simular way, although he calls it the heaven and heaven technique (heaven in Holland and heaven in New-Zealand). He opens his body and you get sucked in. I also believe I have seen him finnish kotegaeshi nage with a simular stance as the one mentioned in the video of Ueshiba.

But again, these are just my observations and I dont really know how and why they are doing it. And as long as I dont get any answers that are more plausible to me, I'll stick to these.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2010, 05:24 PM   #32
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
The information given is that one person steps forward and the other person steps backwards. But, what if that exercise was a push-out type exercise where the person "stepping backwards" wasn't supposed to move unless actually forced to move? So, in essence, there could have been an actual push test exercise to build the skill to withstand pushes. Anyone remember the creation of that exercise?

Perhaps things were altered, changed, modified. But, who remembers?
Actually, the exercise you describe here does exist in Shodokan Aikido, it is called Shotei Awase and is part of the kihon kozo to be practiced at every class. This exercise is designed to develop pushing power by channeling the force of the push from the ground through the body into each hand (specifically the shotei region of the hand). Ones partner provides enough resistance to ensure that you must move him by floating his weight upwards and stepping through him. The arms are held relatively straight so all power must come from movement of the whole body. As ones level of knowledge increases ones partner provides resistance by relaxing his body in the correct manner and timing to avoid his weight being floated (becoming heavier in a sense) and thereby become harder to push.

We have another pushing exercise called Hiriki no Yosei which involves turning and pushing a partner who is providing resistance to your movement as well.

The exercise you saw in the Loi book was Tegatana Awase and it is a precursor to Shotei Awase as far as our basic exercises go.

Just a little tidbit.

Best

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2010, 10:36 PM   #33
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,075
Japan
Online
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
The exercise you saw in the Loi book was Tegatana Awase and it is a precursor to Shotei Awase as far as our basic exercises go.
Just to clarify - precursor as in the order of exercises.

Tegatana Awase - is designed to improve distancing and sensitivity to your partner/opponents movement.

Shotei Awase - is the pushing exercise.

A couple of comments about the latter for those who know. I actually have people do that to a wall when they first learn it since a wall shouldn't move. When doing it another human being proper alignment becomes even more crucial and the exercise can degenerate into something else if both people don't understand what is being worked for. This is a very simple exercise on the face of it but very complex deeper down.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2010, 01:44 AM   #34
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Dieter Haffner wrote: View Post
Concerning: One hand up, pointing upwards with one hand down, pointing downwards.

Tamura sensei does an exercise during warmup where he points one hand up and the other one down while focusing on his breading. I wish I knew what he was doing internally, but he does not explain that mutch (or I am just not able to understand his teachings).
Tamura likes to do the Ba Duan Jin or Eight Section Brocade Qi Gong as a 'warmup'. The one hand up, one hand down is 'Separating Heaven and Earth'. The basic idea of that one is to generate contradictory tension up/down between the hands 'to stretch the suit'.

Disclaimer: don't know the quality of information I linked to, one is wikipedia, the other a lengthy article. So just two places to start for those interested.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2010, 03:12 AM   #35
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Just to clarify - precursor as in the order of exercises.
Thanks for the clarification Peter. Good to see you around.

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I actually have people do that to a wall when they first learn it since a wall shouldn't move. When doing it another human being proper alignment becomes even more crucial and the exercise can degenerate into something else if both people don't understand what is being worked for. This is a very simple exercise on the face of it but very complex deeper down.
Well said.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2010, 07:14 AM   #36
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 270
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Hello mark,
I find your list interesting. If we go one step back there is another question. O Sensei "stole" parts of other arts to "create" Aikido. We now do Aikido and are exhorted to do O Sensei's aikido (whatever that was!) but that would mean cross training, theft, and ultimately abandoning your teacher to create your own art. Further a look into "Transparent Power" depicts an approach to training that is perhaps closer to Ueshiba ryu than the PR image we have inherited.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 02:02 PM   #37
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Just thought I'd add some posts by Dan, Ellis and Peter. They are relevant in what Ueshiba trained ...

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Externally that may be true, but mores the point you can capture uke's center quite well without the aid of a lock. I think that should be a requirement of all aikido.
Secondly, I think absorbing and cancelling lock attempts and then reversing them (with aiki-not waza reversals) should be taught along side doing them. Learn to do and to undo; to throw and to not be thrown, to lock and to be unlockable, to hit and kick and to absorb the same punishment. It gives a different, more wholistic view, a more complete package.
Cheers
Dan
Quote:
Peter Goldsbury wrote:
Amdur isolates three important aspects of the kata that Takeda taught. The first aspect was their reliance on sophisticated grabbing skills. As Amdur puts it, "One learns how to grip while simultaneously directing that power in a manner that locks up the opponent." Ueshiba Morihei, also, was known for his extremely powerful grip. The second aspect is how to neutralize such locking and release the grip (te-hodoki), not merely the joint, but the locking up of the skeleton, such that the attacker cannot exert any force on what appears to be still a grip. The third aspect is the set of subtle techniques related to pushing or pulling on the body of a standing or sitting person. Sagawa spends much time discussing the technique known as aiki-age and it is this technique that he appears to have mastered at the age of seventeen.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2010, 07:48 AM   #38
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Don Hebert wrote: View Post
It may be that the reason that this sort of training was not handed down to future Aikidoists was because Ueshiba himself did not encourage it in a practical way. I recall a story from somewhere that O'Sensei once came upon a group of his students who trying to make the techniques work martially and were struggling with one another. He became annoyed saying that he had spent a lifetime studying these things so they didn't have to start there. O'sensei was, evidently, interested in something else.
Hello Don
This train of thought is more or less the standard fair expressed through many teachers in Aikido. I find it wildly inconsistent with virtually every aikido demo and every shihan and teacher I have ever felt. It is they-who are in fact still struggling with trying to make things work. It could equally be said that Ushiba was trying to free their minds. Further, I would share from my own experience that of those who train with me (who come from many different arts) and continue to grow in internal skills-they all seem to arrive at the same conclusions.
1. As their power grows they increasingly become disinterested in fixed arts of any kind. In many ways they find them stiffling and stilted. IP/Aiki is without form and therefore without style or art.
2. When I speak to them about a "feeling" that will build in them, a feeling akin to living free in the world and changing them from within, they have scoffed, later almost to a person, they come back to tell me it is happening to them.

This leads me to my own personal interest in your last comments:

Quote:
My own sense is that he was deeply exploring how this training could connect his essence to the greater universe from whence he was born and back to which he must die. It is possible that his interest in Internal Power dropped away in this pursuit along with a lot of things. In any case, most of his direct students couldn't understand what the dickens he was talking about when he lectured and he certainly didn't develop a clear method for his students to follow for increasing internal power.

I don't mean to dismiss anyone's interest in pursuing this direction. There is nothing in it that I can see that is contrary to Aikido practice - Indeed it can only enrich it. I just raise the possibility that internal training wasn't central to O'Sensei's spiritual quest and therefore only remains in today's Aikido in vestiges.
It is my belief that it was his pursuit of IP/aiki (something which he NEVER stopped talking about, which was in fact THEE cause of his transformation. It was not something he ever left behind, Don. rather it was something he was racing toward. I would contend that once he realized how powerful and free one could be at every moment he recognized how that could be a powerful transformative experience for many people.

Consider that many of the early Uchi deshi were rough and tumble guys, consider what the demeanor has always been for the majority of those who enter martial arts; in many cases it boils down to resolving issues with fear or dominance. It is clear Ueshiba had these same issues, so did Takeda. I believe Ueshiba's vision was in finding a way out, I also believe that today, we wouldn't even know his name, if it were not for the power (IP/aiki) that energized his vision and gave it physical credibility.

As I continue to get out and meet more of your teachers and Shihan face to face, as well as many other teachers from different arts it is becoming increasingly obvious to all in the room what it really means to have been "released" from form and what it looks like to operate freely and with impunity, and more's the point... to have the "actual" power to resolve conflict to a peaceful conclusion.

Why was his "vision" embroiled with conflict?
Trying to tie fighting and the mundane nature of hand-to-hand, together with IP/Aiki is fundamental flaw. Ueshiba's "vision" continued to be expressed through martial arts. That alone should speak loudly to all involved. He recognized an indelible truth, written into our deepest nature, and he knew the way out. It was his choice to express his spirituality through facing conflict and resolving it, not apart from it.

Why no one understood
I have long felt the dissonance that existed between he and his students was profound. Yet it is worth noting that it appears the one student who pursued the path of IP/aiki, Tohei, was recognized and given a "finished" diploma 10th dan.
Honestly, I do not think that anyone then, or now could have understood him or truly capture his vision without IP/Aiki. Freedom from conflict, comes through IP/Aiki. Everything else is just martial arts.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 08:21 AM   #39
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Another snippet of Ueshiba's training from Shioda in Shugyo:

"During training, Ueshiba sensei would often assume a one-legged stance and tell us to come at him. He was showing us that one must always assume a stable stance by moving the center of gravity freely at will."
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 08:40 AM   #40
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Another snippet of Ueshiba's training from Shioda in Shugyo:

"During training, Ueshiba sensei would often assume a one-legged stance and tell us to come at him. He was showing us that one must always assume a stable stance by moving the center of gravity freely at will."
Tohie's group presented this in the early Ki society training as well...

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 09:04 AM   #41
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Tohie's group presented this in the early Ki society training as well...

Greg
Tohei can be seen on film doing demonstrations of standing on one leg and being pushed. But, did Tohei or his group "assume a one-legged stance and tell" anyone "to come at him"? Not being snide, but interested to know if anyone actually did this. I'd never heard about Tohei's group doing that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 09:19 AM   #42
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Tohei can be seen on film doing demonstrations of standing on one leg and being pushed. But, did Tohei or his group "assume a one-legged stance and tell" anyone "to come at him"? Not being snide, but interested to know if anyone actually did this. I'd never heard about Tohei's group doing that.
I have never trained with Tohei, but I have training with Koretoshi Maruyama (Tohei's first Chief Instructor of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido) and yes, I have seen it done; and our group in Guam back in the 70's played around with it as well - of course, not very easy to do - but fun trying
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 09:26 AM   #43
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hello,
4. Yes, that's the main point. A lot of people had been studying jujutsu, judo, kenjutsu, kendo, etc for a long time. Yet when they met Ueshiba, all that training didn't help them one little bit. Yet, somehow that training helped them to learn what Ueshiba was doing?
This may be off topic. But is there any proof that training with Ueshiba helped them in any way? Did they eventually win against Ueshiba? If not, how do you really know that training with him helped?

Lets break it down.

1) I'm a bad ass
2) I get my ass kicked by a bigger bad ass
3) I train with said bigger bad ass
4) Now we assume that training with said bad ass makes me even more bad ass?
5) ?

This seems to have the assumption that just because a guy is awesome at fighting he is awesome at teaching. And thus would improve your ability to fight. We simply assume that training with Ueshiba helped him in (in terms of fighting) ways that training in other martial arts did not.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 10:32 AM   #44
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I have never trained with Tohei, but I have training with Koretoshi Maruyama (Tohei's first Chief Instructor of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido) and yes, I have seen it done; and our group in Guam back in the 70's played around with it as well - of course, not very easy to do - but fun trying
Thanks Greg. Always interesting to hear about history that isn't written down anywhere.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 10:44 AM   #45
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
This may be off topic. But is there any proof that training with Ueshiba helped them in any way? Did they eventually win against Ueshiba? If not, how do you really know that training with him helped?

Lets break it down.

1) I'm a bad ass
2) I get my ass kicked by a bigger bad ass
3) I train with said bigger bad ass
4) Now we assume that training with said bad ass makes me even more bad ass?
5) ?

This seems to have the assumption that just because a guy is awesome at fighting he is awesome at teaching. And thus would improve your ability to fight. We simply assume that training with Ueshiba helped him in (in terms of fighting) ways that training in other martial arts did not.
Hi Don,

As for how his students progressed ...

There are some reports where Tomiki did things that Ueshiba could do. One is where he held out his hand and had judo people try to throw him and they couldn't.

Another is the training session with Shioda where Ueshiba tested him with bokken and empty hand. He passed in one and was not as good with the other. And don't forget the stories about Shioda going outside the dojo and testing his training in bar fights.

There is the stories about Tenryu training a short time and Ueshiba telling him he is done.

So, in one manner, yeah, Ueshiba (at least in some instances) trained some people to a decent level. Since he (Ueshiba) had already been training before his students started, I doubt that they would have surpassed him until he was old. By then, well ... as Ellis Amdur posted recently about Kuroiwa sensei ...

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
Kuroiwa sensei smiled -- "You can't knock your teacher over when your teacher just announces in front of an audience that you can't knock him over."
Going back on topic, Ueshiba did things in his training that don't seem to be done currently. And if they are, they are so watered down (push tests for example), that they are but a shell of the real thing. Why?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 12:09 PM   #46
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
There are some aspects of Ueshiba that seem to have disappeared in the aikido world.

1. One hand up, pointing upwards with one hand down, pointing downwards. (No reference thread)

In various videos of Ueshiba, one can see him in a very distinct pose. He has one hand up and one hand down. It is a distinct pose shared with the Daito ryu world as pictures of Hisa and Takeda have shown. Ueshiba can be seen in this pose throughout his life, even in his eighties.

If pictures capture Takeda, Hisa, and Ueshiba in this pose, then perhaps one can find some relevance to it. I would imagine some important relevance. And yet, in modern aikido, it has disappeared.

Why? What happened? Where did this aspect of Ueshiba's training go?

[snip]
The photo of an older Ueshiba that Tim Grffiths posted earlier:

http://www.westlord.com/wallpaper/osensei-021/

Note Ueshiba in the 1935 Asahi News film concluding techniques at various points with (somewhat) similar hand-up and hand-down positions in the standing against standing demonstrations, and sometimes in the seated v. standing demos (Ueshiba when kneeling sometimes slaps the mat/earth with his down hand when concluding a technique):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

It could be a stylistic flourish, or something relevant to the performance of the technique (or both). Zanshin has been mentioned in connection with this finishing position. Is this finishing position some kind of zanshin of the body, that is, serving to reorient Ueshiba's body after a technique?

Rebalancing of yin-yang (in-yo) in the body after a technique, or a reflection of solo training in a body well-conditioned internally? Viz. Akuzawa practicing shintaijiku:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrzLp...eature=related
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 12:44 PM   #47
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
The photo of an older Ueshiba that Tim Grffiths posted earlier:

http://www.westlord.com/wallpaper/osensei-021/

Note Ueshiba in the 1935 Asahi News film concluding techniques at various points with (somewhat) similar hand-up and hand-down positions in the standing against standing demonstrations, and sometimes in the seated v. standing demos (Ueshiba when kneeling sometimes slaps the mat/earth with his down hand when concluding a technique):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

It could be a stylistic flourish, or something relevant to the performance of the technique (or both). Zanshin has been mentioned in connection with this finishing position. Is this finishing position some kind of zanshin of the body, that is, serving to reorient Ueshiba's body after a technique?

Rebalancing of yin-yang (in-yo) in the body after a technique, or a reflection of solo training in a body well-conditioned internally? Viz. Akuzawa practicing shintaijiku:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrzLp...eature=related
Hi Tom,

Hope you're doing well.

If Ueshiba was working on aiki, then we could guess that he was working on in-yo, or yin-yang, or contradictory opposites. So, his heaven-earth would be comparable to that.

I could theorize that when Ueshiba was saying things like being the bridge between heaven and earth, he was using this pose. One hand to heaven, one hand to earth, and his core body between as the bridge. Or, maybe even his upper body (chest and waist) was heaven while his lower body (hips and legs) was earth, and his hara (that central area between upper rib cage and pelvic bowl) was the bridge. Or his upper intent really was as far up as heaven, his lower intent really was at the core of Earth, and his spirit was in between being the bridge that other physical bodies came into contact with.

One could then add in that, maybe, Ueshiba was adding opening and closing to his body. Hand up opens, hand down closes.

And then, maybe, Ueshiba could have added spirals to it all so that whenever anyone touched him, they encountered his spirals that he used to effectively move people where he wanted them to go.

One could guess that perhaps that pose is the final physical outward appearance of everything that he'd already done internally as theorized above.

But, I'm just tossing out ideas here ...
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 01:33 PM   #48
donhebert
Dojo: River Valley Aikido
Location: Vermont
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 47
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your thoughtful (and unexpected) response to my post. Your perspective certainly makes me think and is as enlivening as your training.

I think I am about to back-track on my statement:

Quote:
I just raise the possibility that internal training wasn't central to O'Sensei's spiritual quest and therefore only remains in today's Aikido in vestiges.
My speculation that Ueshiba wasn't very successful in transmitting IP skills because he was being drawn into something else may be quite wrong. It could be that this knowledge got lost in transmission for a number of reasons, some of them resting with his students. Your argument that Ueshiba was able to experience transformation in his life because of IP seems to ring true. I also agree that there remains "a profound dissonance" between Ueshiba and the way Aikido is practiced today. Just to be clear though, I didn't intend to imply in my post that Aikidoists could skip over IP/Aiki simply because Ueshiba didn't spend a lot of time coaching it.

This by the way is a cool statement:

Quote:
...a feeling" that will build in them, a feeling akin to living free in the world and changing them from within...
Boy, there is a lot I don't understand, but isn't his what a lot of people in Aikido are trying to find?

Thanks,

Don
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2010, 09:52 AM   #49
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

According to the below snippet, Ueshiba had a daily training regimen (when he was learning Daito ryu under Takeda) of sword, staff, and spear.

From Black Belt 1981 Vol 19 No 9
A Dave Lowry article about O-sensei.

lessons in aikijutsu with Takeda, and by what had become daily habit since his days as a fencer: workouts with sword, staff, and spear.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 12:51 AM   #50
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Did Ueshiba Morihei's Training Go?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Why? What happened? Where did this aspect of Ueshiba's training go?
You left out the practice of throwing or using atemi. Where did that go? You will be hard pressed to see atemi being used in most dojos these days. People don't throw them, and people don't respond to them. What a shame. It's such an important part of this art that has truly been lost.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Cool Rain Productions - Since 1976, the exclusive source for "Aikido in Training" Book/DVD Series



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 8 Peter Goldsbury Columns 60 11-24-2009 05:03 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 14 Peter Goldsbury Columns 38 08-01-2009 12:19 AM
Analytic Anger and Frustration in Training Erick Mead Training 13 06-14-2007 05:17 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 3 Peter Goldsbury Columns 16 05-28-2007 07:24 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:08 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate