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Old 02-06-2010, 09:45 AM   #1
David Orange
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Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

The "Tea Party" movement is a big, fun, nutsy way for white people to get up and show their anger at our first black president.

It may end up sinking the Republican party or it may suck it up and absorb it into some kind of huge right-wing crushing machine that will guarantee a dictatorship in the US in a very few years or it may just fade away into a weird memory that people will look back on and laugh (my bet). Certainly, it seems to have settled on Sarah Palin as its standard of all that is good and right, with no notice at all for how crooked she is or how little she cares about anyone but herself and her family. In other words, once again, people who are highly motivated by an image and a slogan and who lack the ability to notice that the results of the policies established by their standard bearers are exactly opposite the supposed meanings of the image and the slogans, are massing like Wal Mart shoppers on Black Friday morning to push America back to the 1950s, with no idea of the hell they are unleashing on themselves and their children and grandchildren and, just as tragically, on the world.

What is the fundamental fallacy of the "tea party" movement?

It's that all the problems they're shouting about now are the very things I have been shouting about and criticizing for many, many years now: the government is too big and has no ear for the citizens; unchecked spending is destroying our children's opportunities for the future; etc. The ONLY difference is that they are hopping mad about our first black president.

"Tea Party" supporters are the very people who consistently told me I was crazy, especially over the past eight years (the Bush years) when I complained about the things they are complaining about now. (except that we had no black president)

I have left trails of burning invective across the width and depth of the internet, warning of every single thing the Tea Party movement now decries except the black president. I'm sure aikiweb has a full archive of my warnings that Bush would put us into endless war and would drive the country into bankruptcy. And if you look back at all my warnings through those years, you will see many, many people telling me how stupid I was. But if you look at what happened, you will see that I was correct in virtually every detail.

And a little look around today will show you that many of those very people have now woken up to the threats that I described, but they have run back into the burning house and today is the day they sit in self-created hell, having a "tea party" with Sarah Palin as the keynote.

The only difference between the Tea Party's complaints and mine is: we now have a black president.

So now they're going through the roof and foaming at the mouth and bringing guns to Town Hall meetings and crying for Obama's birth certificate, willfully ignoring the fact that no matter where in the world you are born, if ONE of your parents is an American citizen, you are BORN an American citizen. So even if Obama were born in Kenya, he was born an American citizen because his mother was an American citizen.

These are the people who cheered while Bush drove the economy into the toilet and flushed it, and now they're screaming for the jobs the CEOs, coddled by Bush, destroyed in the years leading up to the big bailout of 2008. And they are criticizing Obama vehemently for the things Bush did to us: the things I pointed out and warned about for the full eight years of his "presidency". But the Tea Party tells us that Obama's one year in office has had a more disastrous effect on the nation than Bush's full eight years of behaving like Travis the Killer Chimp. The Constitution came over to help get Bush back into his cage and he tore its face and hands off and ripped out its eyes.

Everything the Tea Party cries about is what I've been warning them about since Reagan took office and made secret deals with the Ayatollahs and helped Saddam Hussein murder his way to power in Iraq. All that is the root of today's economic emergency and the sorry state of American affairs, still bogged down in two wars, everyone broke and afraid to speak up, but ripe for someone like Sarah Barracuda to tell us about how good America is and that it's Obama's fault that things went very bad several years ago. Obama has no choice but to take drastic measures to repair the ungodly damage Bush did to this nation and to the whole world with his unrelenting love of the super wealthy and his utter disdain for common people. The Tea Party is doing everything they can to bring Obama down and force him to fail, without regard for the irreparable damage that would do.

I do believe that the majority of Tea Partyers "mean" well, but just as they did with Reagan and twice with Bushes, they have latched onto an empty slogan and a picture of a woman with an apple pie and declared a big bag of mixed nuts to be the promise for our country. I don't think the majority of Tea Partyers really recognize the fundamental racism of the people behind that movement but the truth is, their only real issue is how to drive that black man out of the "White" house.

So if you support the Tea Party, I'd like to ask "Why didn't you complain about government spending when Bush was pouring $10 billion a month into an unnecessary war that absolutely did not achieve any of its stated goals? Why didn't you worry about jobs and retirements when Bush allowed the CEOs to ship jobs abroad and to renege on retirement agreements people had worked under for thirty or more years, literally robbing them of money they had directly earned with their decades of labor?" And there are many, many more questions that show that you did not complain about these crucial issues when Reagan and the Bushes were so busy praising and rewarding the most extreme forms of greed and the enslavement of American citizens to the CEO class. And now the Tea Partyers complain about the mess as if Obama created it.

Another real, serious problem is the sickening, unconditional love of the Tea Drinkers for Sarah Palin, as if she cares about the common people of this country. It simply never fails to amaze me how the common people can be so easily persuaded to vote so strongly for the people who stab them in the back every single time.

So there you have it. The fundamental fallacy of the tea party movement is that they accepted all the things they hate as long as a White Republican was in office. It's a fundamentally racist movement in which "concern" about the economy and freedom simply mask a basic hatred for having a black leader.

If you don't believe me, print this out and put it in a safe deposit box, sealed for ten years. If the Tea Party succeeds in swindling the American public once more, in ten years you will read my words and cry to think you denied them.

God Save America

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-06-2010, 12:34 PM   #2
James Davis
 
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Although I suppose it's possible, I don't think that these people are necessarily racist. I just think they took a little longer to open their eyes and pay attention than some others did.

I was certainly hopeful when President Obama said that transparency and the rule of law would be a hallmark of his administration. When he spoke against earmarks and said that bills would be viewable online a few days before our representatives had the opportunity to sign them, I was overjoyed.

He lied to me.

My dislike of his policy of spending our way out of debt doesn't have anything to do with his skin color. I was angry with Dubya about the war and that prescription drug plan, and that didn't have anything to do with his being white.

It doesn't matter what color they are, you are, or I am. It's so easy to point to a group of people and explain their actions by labeling them racist or evil. I guess that's why so many people do it, and call it "debate".

I can set aside his saying that cops doing their job were "behaving stupidly" without his having any of the facts available to him, only to tell us not to jump to conclusions after a shooting on a military base.

For the moment, I'll set aside his talking about the irresponsible behavior of corporate executives while forking over my money to them; that stuff's happened before.

I laugh out loud when he talks about going after tax cheats, when he should be sending the IRS after most of his cabinet.

Plenty of previous administrations have piled debt onto my back, just as this one is piling it onto the backs of my children.

Blatant lies are another thing entirely. I'm really sick of giving President Obama the benefit of the doubt. I can't be patient with him and trust him to do the right thing any more than I can with any other politician because his track record, while admittedly very short, speaks volumes.

Just be glad that these people are awake, and don't be so quick to demonize them and set up potentially false premises about what motivates them.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
 
Old 02-06-2010, 12:55 PM   #3
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
The "Tea Party" movement is a big, fun, nutsy way for white people to get up and show their anger at our first black president.

So there you have it. The fundamental fallacy of the tea party movement is that they accepted all the things they hate as long as a White Republican was in office. It's a fundamentally racist movement in which "concern" about the economy and freedom simply mask a basic hatred for having a black leader.
I can't say whether or not racism is a motivation here. I'm sure it plays a part since we're still stamping out the instituationalized effects of racism, but I believe it's got less to do with that than the fact that the posterboy for modern conservativism "enjoyed" ridiculous support and then arrogantly stood in front of the world and pissed it away. That one-time face of their party, the former president, is now one of the most ridiculed and criticised American politicians since Nixon. On some level that has to hurt the ego a bit. I think they're desperate for Obama to get mud on his face so their moronic past choice (I'll tell you what I really think in a minute ) doesn't look quite so bad.
Beyond that it's politics as usual: decry the other team regardless of what they're doing; and when you do something similar or the same, decry them for getting in the way of "real" progress. And who cares about the truth anyway: it's not how you play the game it's how many people you can get on your side so you can more loudly decry the other guys for not caring about how the game is being played.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 02-06-2010, 12:57 PM   #4
David Orange
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
Although I suppose it's possible, I don't think that these people are necessarily racist. I just think they took a little longer to open their eyes and pay attention than some others did.
I tried to be clear when I said the above that I do NOT think that all the supporters of this movement are racist. BUT the movement, itself, is fundamentally racist. Just as the many German soldiers who fought for Hitler believed that they were doing what was good for Germany and the world, rank-and-file tea partyers are just confused and angry and they have latched onto the rabble rousers (which is all Hitler was until he was duly elected by the German people) and they are serving the racists' purpose.

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
My dislike of his policy of spending our way out of debt doesn't have anything to do with his skin color. I was angry with Dubya about the war and that prescription drug plan, and that didn't have anything to do with his being white.
But where was the outrage? Bush is the one who destroyed the economy, helped CEOs outsource the jobs, smiled when huge companies walked away from their obligations to their workers. So why was there no Tea Party movement when he was doing all that?

And as for spending our way out of debt? What else can we do? What brought us out of The Great Depression? It was WWII. How did we pay for that??? Deficit spending.

And why no outrage when Bush was spending us INTO debt? Why is it okay to spend us into unbelievable debt that still has not yet been fully accounted--all money that was poured into the pockets of corrupt foreign dictators--but it's wrong to spend on our own people, even if it is in deficit? What other chance do we have?

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James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
It doesn't matter what color they are, you are, or I am. It's so easy to point to a group of people and explain their actions by labeling them racist or evil. I guess that's why so many people do it, and call it "debate".
Uh...yeah...that would ring somewhat true if they weren't displaying their racist posters...and if they hadn't smiled and nodded when a white man was doing worse? The ONLY difference is that Obama is black. (and democratic)

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
Just be glad that these people are awake, and don't be so quick to demonize them and set up potentially false premises about what motivates them.
That's the point: they're not awake. They're still sleepwalking and still following the nightmare honks of Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin.

The only possible good that can come of this is the final destruction of the Republican party by splitting it into the right wing and the super-racist-FAR-right wing.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-06-2010, 01:25 PM   #5
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

When I was a "Drill Instructor" for OCS, I had one candidate that did not do so well, so we paid extra attention to her as all good drill instructors do. She eventually put in her resignation from the program, but before she did...she filed a discrimination complaint against me.

In the investigation they asked me if I singled her out and treated her differently than the other candiates. ABSOULTELY I told them.

They were astounded I'd admitted it. It was my job and she did not represent Army Values.

It had nothing to do with the color of her skin.

The point is, it is easy to label folks and slam down the race card on the table as the reason for friction or conflict.

When in fact, it may not have anything to do with it at all.

Not saying that the actions of the members of the Tea Party are or are not racist. Frankly I do not know or really care as I don't keep up with this stuff enough to speak intelligently on it.

I do know from my own experiences of being labeled "racist" or my behaviors as being "discriminatory" that it is an easy default to go to when you have a disagreement with someone of the opposite race sometimes.

 
Old 02-06-2010, 01:48 PM   #6
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
Although I suppose it's possible, I don't think that these people are necessarily racist. I just think they took a little longer to open their eyes and pay attention than some others did.
Do you think it's more A) suddenly opening their eyes or B) "rallying against a liberal?" I get the impression it's more B than A...or at the very least, the timing surrounding the activity of these "parties" begs the question a little.

Quote:
I was certainly hopeful when President Obama said that transparency and the rule of law would be a hallmark of his administration. When he spoke against earmarks and said that bills would be viewable online a few days before our representatives had the opportunity to sign them, I was overjoyed.

He lied to me.
I know presidents make all kinds of promises that aren't theirs to make (e.g. "read my lips..."). My question is: who is in charge of making transparency issues into law? My guess is that's a legislative process. If I'm right, I would agree it's silly for him to make promises he shouldn't, but I'm also wondering how much of the problem can be found in the very common act of compromise found in the legislature. Rarely does anything happen without some form of it. Can you be sure it's Obama who is actively preventing this greater transparency from taking place? Or could it be that he's just trying to get something else done and realized that overhauling the political system (something I would agree severely needs doing) might be more trouble than he wants to deal with at the moment? I don't know. I'm hoping he meant it when he said he wanted greater transparency, just as I hoped Bush had more than scary props at his disposal for justifying the start of this trillion dollar war, which was, coincidentally, very lucrative for some...and as an aside, I'd like to add it should be illegal to profit off war. Most, if not all, war-time business transactions should be non-profit. If it's for the sake of national security, profit shouldn't be a mitigating motivation.
...The world according to Matt, anyway. Stick around I'll be here all the week fixing the world's problems.

Quote:
I'm really sick of giving President Obama the benefit of the doubt. I can't be patient with him and trust him to do the right thing any more than I can with any other politician because his track record, while admittedly very short, speaks volumes.
He's a politician: he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. And I don't blame you for disliking what appears to be just throwing money at the situation. It doesn't sound like anything has changed. If I recall correctly, much of the money made back in the financial sector was through higher fees and the like and the fact that some of these guys we bailed out think they deserve bonuses is a little shocking. The south Everett part of me wants to smack 'em around.
Quote:
Just be glad that these people are awake, and don't be so quick to demonize them and set up potentially false premises about what motivates them.
I'll be glad when I see something that looks different from the standard partisan pack. Calling yourself an independant doesn't mean you actually are.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 02-06-2010 at 01:51 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 02-06-2010, 04:16 PM   #7
David Orange
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Not saying that the actions of the members of the Tea Party are or are not racist. Frankly I do not know or really care as I don't keep up with this stuff enough to speak intelligently on it.

I do know from my own experiences of being labeled "racist" or my behaviors as being "discriminatory" that it is an easy default to go to when you have a disagreement with someone of the opposite race sometimes.
Yeah, but if you'd had not only that woman but also a white man, and he was worse than she, but you didn't do anything about him, that would surely have been dealt with differently. You would have been busted, I'm sure, if not drummed out.

Or vice versa, a black instructor who discriminates against a white trainee when he has black trainees who are doing worse would have to be considered racist.

Basically, it's just a rejection of Obama on every false ground they can apply to him. Bush sunk our ship and gave away 700 billion to the bankers and mutli-billionaires. Where was the tea party bunch then? All things being equal....except that Obama is black...and anyone should reach the same conclusion if they're playing on a level table.

The biggest point for me is not that the movement is racist but that's it's fundamentally fallacious. None of what they state as their major complaints was any complaint at all when Bush was on his world rampage. Oh, but now it's the end of the world and "death panels".

That's my point.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-07-2010, 09:02 AM   #8
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Red is the new black.

Edit: and one additional thought: in these sad days, it's considered an unusual level of insight to observe that people from all spots on the political spectrum can be equal in the integrity of their conviction. How we damn ourselves with faint praise. Sincerity cannot ennoble that which was base to begin with.

Last edited by lbb : 02-07-2010 at 09:05 AM.
 
Old 02-07-2010, 11:29 AM   #9
Aikibu
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Red is the new black.

Edit: and one additional thought: in these sad days, it's considered an unusual level of insight to observe that people from all spots on the political spectrum can be equal in the integrity of their conviction. How we damn ourselves with faint praise. Sincerity cannot ennoble that which was base to begin with.
Thank You Mary! The goal of some conservative movements has always been to distrust and destroy government...From the "Know Nothings" of the 18th Century The John Birch Society through Reagan "The Federalist (!!! LOL) Society until now. And like Thomas Frank points out in his book "The Wrecking Crew" This brand of conservatism has come very close to succeeding...Bush did all he could to run up the debt to 'prove" government does not work... by trying to break it...

I also think Frank Rich's essay in Today's Times also makes David Orange's point rather well...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/opinion/07rich.html

William Hazen
 
Old 02-07-2010, 11:35 AM   #10
David Orange
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
...I believe it's got less to do with (racism) than the fact that the posterboy for modern conservativism "enjoyed" ridiculous support and then arrogantly stood in front of the world and pissed it away. That one-time face of their party, the former president, is now one of the most ridiculed and criticised American politicians since Nixon.
He was that within a very few months of his installation by the corrupt Supreme Court installed by his father. But that Nixon association is really the key to the problem. Republicans have been blood thirsty for revenge ever since Nixon resigned to keep from being convicted of his crimes.

He was a crook, absolutely, but to the republicans, he was their crook and whatever he did was okay with them. Which is how G. Gordon Liddy and Rush Limbaugh became so popular and wealthy. They were willing to stab people in the gut and they were willing to be openly cruel on levels that previously were kept hidden from view. These guys were willing to come right out and call a teenaged girl a dog. Limbaugh has been more than willing to talk in the dialect of poor blacks, about "chirruns" for children and such.

Of course, it was really Reagan who lit the match to that powder keg. He made is suave to ridicule your opponent in ways that had always been forbidden in public. No politician would have allowed himself to be quoted saying things such as Reagan did simply because it would have made political negotiation and compromise impossible--as it now has become. But Reagan did it slyly and cleverly and everyone thought it was fine because it was simply "payback" for forcing their crook to resign.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
On some level that has to hurt the ego a bit. I think they're desperate for Obama to get mud on his face so their moronic past choice (I'll tell you what I really think in a minute ) doesn't look quite so bad.
That's a huge part of it: they just refuse to admit what a stupid and hypocritical mistake they made. They ridiculed Clinton as a dope smoking draft dodger and then they chose a drunkard, dope-smoking, coke-snorting wastrel to lead the "Conservative" movement. And now they're going to choose Sarah Palin! The biggest know-nothing-but-makeup-and-poses dingaling to come down the pike since dingalings were invented. And if they Republicans don't choose her, the Tea Party will (idiots already have) and they will sink whoever the Republicans end up nominating. Therefore, they repubs will undoubtedly choose Sarah Palin.

And what is she going to do? Well, she just suggested that Obama should "play the war card" and declare war on just about anyone. Just kill a whole hell of a lot of people and their children, and you will get the votes of American pro-lifers and Christians.

Of course, that's the tao of anti-christ. But

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Beyond that it's politics as usual: decry the other team regardless of what they're doing; and when you do something similar or the same, decry them for getting in the way of "real" progress. And who cares about the truth anyway: it's not how you play the game it's how many people you can get on your side so you can more loudly decry the other guys for not caring about how the game is being played.
I care.

And say what you will about Obama and Democrats in general, regardless of their crimes, look like good Sunday school children, with innocent hearts, compared to the Republicans who will kill anyone and their children to win the pro-life vote.

It isn't about life or goodness or truth for them. Or for the Tea Party. It's just about being the one to control everyone else.

Really sucks to be them.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-07-2010, 11:58 AM   #11
David Orange
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Do you think it's more A) suddenly opening their eyes or B) "rallying against a liberal?" I get the impression it's more B than A...or at the very least, the timing surrounding the activity of these "parties" begs the question a little.
Sure. They are eight years off. My whole point. They don't give a doody about massive spending and giving away billions and hundreds of billions of tax dollars from our children and grandchildren to foreign dictators who give tons of it to the very people we're fighting.

But spend money on schools? SOCIALISM!

Spend money on improving all Americans' opportunities to receive decent health care at decent costs? SOCIALISM!

And all the rest.

So it's about half to stir up hate against democrats and half or more to stir up fear of black people.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I know presidents make all kinds of promises that aren't theirs to make (e.g. "read my lips..."). My question is: who is in charge of making transparency issues into law? My guess is that's a legislative process. If I'm right, I would agree it's silly for him to make promises he shouldn't, but I'm also wondering how much of the problem can be found in the very common act of compromise found in the legislature. Rarely does anything happen without some form of it. Can you be sure it's Obama who is actively preventing this greater transparency from taking place? Or could it be that he's just trying to get something else done and realized that overhauling the political system (something I would agree severely needs doing) might be more trouble than he wants to deal with at the moment?
Yeah, with the disasters of the last eight years weighing on him, he's hardly in a position to try to repair the engineered disaster of the past thirty year on top of it. His big problem is that he's trying to herd cats as the leader of the Democratic party. With a super majority in place, they were not able to agree enough and take action enough to pass some simple bills to really serve the people of the United States. They are so divided by pet issues that they wouldn't rally together on major, important problems to help the people.

Meanwhile, the Republicans have one issue only: to serve the super wealthy and to enrich themselves on the backs of the 98% of the people who have been seriously harmed by Republican policies going back at least to Nixon. Probably the last honest republican was Eisenhower, who warned us of exactly what we're living in today. Bush was the loyal servant of the military/industrial cabal that has maimed and murdered living children by the millions since 1960. And somehow, this Satanic force has captured the hearts and minds of the American "pro-life" movement so that the postergirl for pro-life openly champions declaring war on someone and killing their born children and the parents of small children, as the best way possible to win votes and get elected President of the "free world".

And then you have the parade of fools who say you're "blaming America" when you criticize a monster like that. Good God.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I don't know. I'm hoping he meant it when he said he wanted greater transparency, just as I hoped Bush had more than scary props at his disposal for justifying the start of this trillion dollar war, which was, coincidentally, very lucrative for some...and as an aside, I'd like to add it should be illegal to profit off war.
Sadly, Matt, so sadly, the American economy is based entirely on war and war-making. I once knew a multi-millionaire who advised me to read a book called "The Richest Man in Babylon". So I read it. It said to pay yourself first, ten percent of everything you make. Keep it. Save it up. Then loan it to "the king's spear-maker."

So the whole key is "invest in war." Invest in killing and the mutilation of living people and you will prosper.

And where are we now, but Babylon? All our Christian pro-life country, neck-deep in dead children in Babylon. Well, at least they weren't "unborn".

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-07-2010, 12:29 PM   #12
David Orange
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
(Obama's) big problem is that he's trying to herd cats as the leader of the Democratic party. With a super majority in place, they were not able to agree enough and take action enough to pass some simple bills to really serve the people of the United States. They are so divided by pet issues that they wouldn't rally together on major, important problems to help the people....Meanwhile, the Republicans have one issue only: to serve the super wealthy and to enrich themselves on the backs of the 98% of the people who have been seriously harmed by Republican policies going back at least to Nixon.
The Democrats have behaved like Europe facing the Nazi invasion. They have all their little pet plaints and fail to seriously realize that the Nazi horde is UNITED, with only ONE idea, and that is to take POWER over ALL.

The Repugs love to claim that the democrats are naive about the threat from al quaeda (when it was Bush who took a month vacation in his cowboy hat while Mohammed Atta and his friends put the last crucial pieces in place for 9/11--Bush, the ultimate 9/10 mindset).

What the democrats are really naive about is the monolithic Republican Party intent to roll over the people of America with their 700 billion pound steamroller and rule the world. The democrats are much more like the oppostion parties in Germany in the 1920s than anything else. By remaining divided and failing to accomplish anything, they are endangering the US of electing the next Hitler.

Now, I've been cautioned before, by people I really respect, that I should never compare US policies to Nazi policies. What we did in Iraq and Afghanistan (and all through the world), I am told, has been nothing like what the Nazis did. And I wish that I could agree.

But Cheney...and Limbaugh...and Rove...and that low-life Rumsfeld...Jesus. Look what they did. It was only the bare restraint of what little justice system we have left (and the fact that Bush is such a bumbling idiot) that they did not go MUCH further than they did. As it was, the nation allowed him to go on for eight years, prosecuting an unjust war against a nation that had nothing to do with 9/11 and putting billions more into that than into the war against the people who really were behind it.

But Palin has already shown that she will not be bounded by by ordinary self-restraint on moral grounds. She will promise war if it will elect her and she will escalate war if it will re-elect her. She is not embarrassed by her ignorance. She is too ignorant for that. And she has found a tribe of equally-ignorant bumpkins who actually admire her and think that she's smart to support her in her limitless ambitions.

Here is the one to fear: her and the deluded crusaders who will proudly put a bullet in the head of an abortion provider and just as proudly call for bullets in the heads of children in foreign country. Of course, certainly, they wouldn't directly advocate shooting these children in the head, but they will gladly support bombing them and blowing them to smithereens.

And if Sarah wins or loses, they may just be emboldened enough by her "rhetoric" (hate speech) to start putting bullets in the heads of any liberal or "socialist" (supporters of the public option for health care) or people with foreign spouses or mixed-race children... or whomever.

The Tea Party is the scum of the far right and the fringe that has no limits of decency, morality, shame or human love.

This is a very dangerous time for America and the danger does not come from Obama. Sarah Palin is the biggest snake in the darkest hole and McCain is the fool who let her use him.

May God have mercy on this nation.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-07-2010, 02:41 PM   #13
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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David Orange wrote: View Post
But spend money on schools? SOCIALISM!

Spend money on improving all Americans' opportunities to receive decent health care at decent costs? SOCIALISM!
It's interesting to me that people believe you "must" regulate human behavior in things like marriage, but somehow you "mustn't" for how they conduct business.

Quote:
And where are we now, but Babylon? All our Christian pro-life country, neck-deep in dead children in Babylon. Well, at least they weren't "unborn".

David
I hear ya. It's disgusting that many conservatives I know (I work in construction) are absolutely pissed off about abortion, but laugh about war. It simply shows their lack of thought.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 02-07-2010, 03:26 PM   #14
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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I hear ya. It's disgusting that many conservatives I know (I work in construction) are absolutely pissed off about abortion, but laugh about war. It simply shows their lack of thought.
And the death penalty. They'll gladly spend whatever it takes to keep a man on death row for 20 years (far more than a life sentence costs) and they don't give a rat's behind if he's even guilty. The blood thirst is saddening.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-07-2010, 08:30 PM   #15
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

Sounds like someone read Thomas Byrne Edsall and Mary D. Edsall's "Chain Reaction."

I believe the central thesis was that Nixon and Reagan took up the message of low taxes, crime control, and decreased social spending/welfare to mask racism.
 
Old 02-07-2010, 10:12 PM   #16
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
It's interesting to me that people believe you "must" regulate human behavior in things like marriage, but somehow you "mustn't" for how they conduct business.
That's neo-conservatism for you. All for small govt...... EXCEPT!

Hypocrisy run amuck.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
 
Old 02-07-2010, 10:28 PM   #17
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Sounds like someone read Thomas Byrne Edsall and Mary D. Edsall's "Chain Reaction."

I believe the central thesis was that Nixon and Reagan took up the message of low taxes, crime control, and decreased social spending/welfare to mask racism.
Hunter,
The book Nixonland by Rick Perlstein also goes into detail about dog-whistle racism. Among other things, Perlstein examined a box of letters sent to Sen. Paul Douglas by his Illinois constituents. Quoting from one of Perlstein's articles:

Quote:
They [the letters] comprise an unmatched emotional history on how the white middle class built by the New Deal learned to vote Republican.
http://ourfuture.org/blog-entry/meaning-box-722
There's an argument that the reason the US did not become a social democratic state after the close of WWII, is because of the multi-ethnic nature of the US population. If we look at social democratic policies, it depends on viewing the nation as a cohesive community. It is pretty clear from the letters that Perlstein reviews in the linked article, that the white majority viewed the black minority as an outgroup. Thus, the majority did not support policies that depended on seeing the all Americans as one group.

However, that was 40 years ago. Although some people seem intent on waving the banner of white nationalism, I think there are also many Americans who recognize that people from many different backgrounds can come together under a common American ideology and live together.

Sarah Palin and her supporters may believe that they represent the so-called "real America" and that the rest of us in evil, tainted multi-ethnic America are the ''fake Americans." That's some strong wishful thinking, considering the fact that those of us in "fake America" are subsidizing the lifestyles of many of Mrs. Palin's supporters.
 
Old 02-07-2010, 10:34 PM   #18
David Orange
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Sounds like someone read Thomas Byrne Edsall and Mary D. Edsall's "Chain Reaction."

I believe the central thesis was that Nixon and Reagan took up the message of low taxes, crime control, and decreased social spending/welfare to mask racism.
Don't forget the Drug War. Nixon started it when soldiers were coming back from Viet Nam addicted to heroin. Reagan picked it up with Just Say No and the supply of cocaine went through the roof while the cost went down. And then came Crack.

I'll have to check out that book.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-07-2010, 10:35 PM   #19
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
That's neo-conservatism for you. All for small govt...... EXCEPT!

Hypocrisy run amuck.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Yeah. Rahm Emmanuel must resign for saying Retard, but Rush Limbaugh can say it all he wants. What a crock.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-07-2010, 10:39 PM   #20
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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Although some people seem intent on waving the banner of white nationalism, I think there are also many Americans who recognize that people from many different backgrounds can come together under a common American ideology and live together.
Who was it who said, "We must all hang together or we will hang separately."?

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-08-2010, 01:19 AM   #21
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

I dont know, I live kind of a closed life living here amongst the Magyars - all the big happenings stateside kind of die off and are no more than what amounts to the power of a gentle breeze on a spring day... the strong hurricane winds of emotion have lost their power and some of the news even gets lost, as it were, unless you dig for it.

Im only aware of the tea party vaguely as people I know are part of it. I once asked what it was all about and never got an answer that really satisfied me... at least didnt convince me it was something that could generate any true change like what the name would suggest. [eliminating taxes like our 'forefathers' who dressed up like Indians, etc. - The first CIA mission, blame the natives! lol]

I dont think its racist as I know the groups involved. [mainly evangelical Christians], but I can see how it can be taken that way.

What you have to realize is that many of these people are stirred up by a few people who are charismatic and in which they have already tailored their belief system to. [Same goes for both sides of the fence really.]

Personally I think that society needs to evolve past all this comical duality issues which constantly plague people as if it were really an issue. Wonder what would happen if there were an attack from aliens from outerspace, would we unite... blah, blah, blah. [Reagan had a point, though I doubt any aliens would actually care much about us as we would be more of a nuisance than anything with our petty squabbling! It would be easier to just get rid of the biological robots and make some new mechanical ones... but maybe that is the issue he saw.]

When you hear about change, whether it be tea party change or Obama change, all you have to do is sit back and see what actually occurs - which is nothing really.

Hungary is a good example that if you cant get past silly stories that no system works. We have had communism, now we have capitalism led by the same socialist who were here in communism... the mess got messier, and when you thought it couldnt sink lower, it does. [The news is a sad irony of what many here even joke about that Hungarians are the worlds pessimist... and there is reason for this, we have some of the worlds greatest talent but some of the worlds worst management of that talent!]

The problems here are the exact same as stateside, but we are smaller so it feels more amplified and you get results from your observations a lot faster.

At this point it would take an awakening, an awakening to a new way of thought all together to get anywhere. The US is divided equally, makes you wonder if they shouldnt just have a North and South... or would it now be Cali with the north and the south with the midwest? [cant keep up with demographics]

But if it split, I bet it would be like a cancer and keep splitting... no one would be satisfied. No one gets it that 99% of what we talk about doesnt matter.

So someone doesnt agree with the Christians, let them do their own thing as long as it does not impose on you... Someone doesnt agree with the heathens - who cares as long as they dont turn you into an ape who evolves into a man. lol

Seriously, there is room for people to have completely different views and still get along.
Take me for example, Im not here to convince - nor could I - anyone of anything, Im just here chatting away happily about concepts I find worth chatting about, and whether or not Im 'right' is not even an issue. [truth doesnt need defense, stories we make up are exactly that and we defend them vigorously as it wants to have 'life']

I see with each day that for the most part people seem not to be open to real solutions. We have become addicted to a certain thought pattern and havent learned any different way.

In that sense our educational system has failed us, but only because those who taught us were not taught, etc.
I can only hope that there is an explosion of the kind of knowledge that the likes of Ram Das, Ekchart Tolle, Jesus, etc have had, and I mean a true owning of the principles and not just making the teachings into another belief to have, etc.

It seems each generation has a prophet that they either stone or crucify and in the next generation turn into an idol - and the majority of people never really get what the heck was being said, and they sit in their mud pits and begin to wrestle and fight with one another again.

Ive seen with movements like the Zeitgeist this problem at work. They use quotes from the likes of Ram Das, but as time goes on, not being anchored in the core concepts the old way comes back and then the system becomes a new model of what they were trying to escape, and sometimes worse. [except they are the new guys in control, etc.]

Who knows, maybe Im being to idealistic, but there is one truth we all know... one day we all die, everyone of us. What is it you spent your time on? Did you use it for hating, feeling hated, etc.
Or did you do like the desert fathers after they crawled out of their rocks to civilization and just go back into hiding and do your own thing and enjoy life.

We take things way to seriously, and all that energy could be used to solve the world hunger problem - which is not as rocket science as industry who burns food would like you to think.

United, we would be like those of Babel who were united under one tongue [love] and we could achieve whatever we wished... wish if its in unity and love cant be that bad can it? [though egoically it can be a nightmare as the bloodshed built up to the goal takes its toll]

These are all pointers, people have to realize to go beyond what mere words say and expand to the possibilities that they point to.
Words cant express anything but only point to a universe of possibilities beyond them.

And this is where our education system needs achieve to get to... a state where people can do critical thinking, but not get lost in that thought, and then enjoy the play of duality, which without we would all go back into the cosmic goo of nothingness. [an oxymoron]

I realize with how I write it may seem irrelevant, but if its change you want, then this is closer to pointing to true change than any political slogan or party promises which only help those who lead the party and play the tune that all who hear follow.

Im all for what it said in the Bible where God said he didnt want Israel to have a king... to me this represents a maturing where we no longer need the structures we have had all our lives which never work... we just keep changing them out as a crutch as we have not learned how to grow.. we have not learned that we stop suffering when we realize we no longer have to suffer.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 02-08-2010, 01:29 AM   #22
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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Tim Fong wrote: View Post
Americans who recognize that people from many different backgrounds can come together under a common American ideology and live together.
What if we dropped the need to identify as Americans, Hungarians, and just were humans? That indeed would be living together.

Any conceptual walls between nations are just that... conceptual.
The greatest divide are the divisions we make with nationalities, etc.

We can still be individuals and work together as a human species to achieve a level 3 society. [ok, jumping ahead, as I know Kaku says we are level 0 the most dangerous society... amen Kaku, I agree!]

Peace

dAlen

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Old 02-08-2010, 10:42 AM   #23
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
We take things way to seriously, and all that energy could be used to solve the world hunger problem - which is not as rocket science as industry who burns food would like you to think.
Yes, we could use more energy applied to world hunger and universal health care.

But as for taking things too seriously?

These are monumentally serious times and things must be taken seriously. George Bush became "the leader of the free world" and quite literally the most powerful man on the planet because a lot of people believed it was okay to install an idiot as long as he 1) stood for cutting taxes and 2) claimed to be a Christian. What harm could it do, after all?

Hundreds of thousands of deaths, hundreds of billions of dollars of American taxes and millions of fists and curses raised against America is the result. Christianity has been given a bad name and a black eye and America has sunk to torture as policy.

So it's quite possible to take things not seriously enough.

After all, Sarah Palin has encouraged Obama to declare war on someone in order to get re-elected. Do you think she will hesitate to declare war on someone to get herself re-elected if she ever gets in? THAT we need to be incredibly serious about. War is not a toy or a game. It is the field of life and death for a nation. George Bush wounded our nation very seriously with his misadventure and he's still grinning like a polecat, not even feeling the misery he has caused around the world.

What is Sarah decided to bomb Hungary in her bid for re-election?

Then it would be deadly serious for you, too.

Peace.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 02-08-2010, 01:09 PM   #24
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

As I tend to agree with you on your view of conservative ideas, I know these similar ideas are not limited just to conservatives, but all politicians. Meaning that they look at what makes the most sense to them and their ideology. They will say that their way is the best way for their country to move forward.

It is my experience that tells me, no politician does anything for free. Below is a quote from the website http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/footsteps.htm

"The Buddha explained that people live in a sea of suffering because of ignorance and greed. They are ignorant of the law of karma and are greedy for the wrong kind of pleasures. They do things that are harmful to their bodies and peace of mind, so they can not be satisfied or enjoy life."

"For example, once children have had a taste of candy, they want more. When they can't have it, they get upset. Even if children get all the candy they want, they soon get tired of it and want something else. Although, they get a stomach-ache from eating too much candy, they still want more. The things people want most cause them the most suffering. Of course, there are basic things that all people should have, like adequate food, shelter, and clothing. Everyone deserve a good home, loving parents, and good friends. They should enjoy life and cherish their possessions without becoming greedy. "

"Life is growth. If we stop growing, technically and spiritually, we are as good as dead. "

O-Sensei
 
Old 02-08-2010, 03:38 PM   #25
David Orange
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Re: Fundamental "Tea Party" Fallacy

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Darrell Elliott wrote: View Post
As I tend to agree with you on your view of conservative ideas, I know these similar ideas are not limited just to conservatives, but all politicians. Meaning that they look at what makes the most sense to them and their ideology. They will say that their way is the best way for their country to move forward.

It is my experience that tells me, no politician does anything for free.
I agree with you quite a bit here, though I feel so much better now than I did two years ago at this time--and that was before we knew that the economy was just a thin sheet of ice that was about to crumble.

I had a long talk with an old friend the other day and as I was leaving I said, "Sorry we didn't get to go into the current political situation" because he is very astute and subtle in his understandings of these things. He shrugged and shook his head and said, "It stinks."

We paused and I said, "Well, it's still better than when Bush was in office!"

He laughed and said, "Definitely!"

We do have a chance to really change things for the better now. My fear is that we'll have enough yahoos to vote for Palin that she'll actually get elected and order the deaths of thousands of children in some other country just to get herself re-elected. Such crimes will certainly accrue to all of us in this nation, as they have from Bush's unjust actions. So there are politicians....and then there are political beasts. It's painful to deal with, but if we don't we will pay for a long, long time.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 

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