Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-04-2010, 06:44 PM   #1
AllanF
Location: Shenyang
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 56
China
Offline
YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Though this would be appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_eii...eature=channel
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 08:24 PM   #2
AllanF
Location: Shenyang
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 56
China
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Not that it matters but, how did that subject heading change?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 10:25 PM   #3
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 692
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Allen,
GTFO<. How in the heck does he do that? Amazing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 10:43 AM   #4
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 510
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
How in the heck does he do that?
That type of throw depends on the "uke's" force and intent, right? Not saying it isn't awesome, but just that the uke could make it look crappy/not work just be being limp, to some degree, yes?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 06:13 PM   #5
AllanF
Location: Shenyang
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 56
China
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Hey Josh,

What does "GTFO" mean? My internet-fu isn't too good!
I think he does it based on the principle of yin ru; yang chu (yin in or returning; yang issuing). But as i can not do that it is merely supposition on my part.

Off the topic, i am concerned that the subject heading was completely changed (not even altered) from the original. I find it disconcerting that admins/mods can and will access users' posts and modify them if they see fit! Where are the ethics/principles/morals? Beside which surely it would be common courtesy to inform said poster of any such change and the reasons for doing so in advance of it happening?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 06:22 PM   #6
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,847
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Hi Allan,

I changed the subject of your post, as your original subject did not really inform the viewer of the subject matter of your post. I did not mean to cause offense.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2010, 06:31 AM   #7
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 692
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Quote:
Allan Featherstone wrote: View Post
Hey Josh,

What does "GTFO" mean? My internet-fu isn't too good!
I think he does it based on the principle of yin ru; yang chu (yin in or returning; yang issuing). But as i can not do that it is merely supposition on my part.

Off the topic, i am concerned that the subject heading was completely changed (not even altered) from the original. I find it disconcerting that admins/mods can and will access users' posts and modify them if they see fit! Where are the ethics/principles/morals? Beside which surely it would be common courtesy to inform said poster of any such change and the reasons for doing so in advance of it happening?
Hi Allan,JW,
: ] . I found the clip unapproachable before; but I think your and JW's 2 comments insightful. I think I see a bit more. Not sure, wonder what you guys think. This may only be interesting to me; so...sorry if this is too pedantic.
Allan - after your comment of Yin In, Yang Out, I believe I can actually see a moment where uke is 'breathed in' and there is a small but perceptble jump where I think is the beginning of his loss of control over himself.
And w.r.t. JW's comments; I expected that this worked via a kind of all-around power explosion...but actually it is, as you said, a very precise, very aligned, very clean power release along a specific line of absorption/release. maybe i'm not explaining the difference between what I thought before and after; but it is a big difference in my mind. (I.e. Now I am a little less ignorant than before. only a little!) Thanks a lot.

Anyway; I appreciate the clip and your ideas. a lot. It is fascinating to me all the different ways to think about and discuss these things.

Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2010, 12:12 PM   #8
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
That type of throw depends on the "uke's" force and intent, right? Not saying it isn't awesome, but just that the uke could make it look crappy/not work just be being limp, to some degree, yes?
That's basically true, Jonathan. However the joint-lock makes it difficult for Uke to be able to be totally relaxed. Li has good body conditioning/training and releases a nice small pulse, but there is a bit of overreaction by the Uke so I can't really judge how powerful Li really is. I'm sure he's quite powerful, but I just can't judge much with cooperative Uke's in a situation like this one.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2010, 02:53 PM   #9
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Incidentally, here's a bit of nostalgia for the older people who remember when Robert Smith was writing about the wonders of his teacher, Cheng Man Ching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9BfbqAbprk

Compare Cheng's body motion with someone like the O.P.'s video Li Chugong, who I only know as someone who is a student of Hong Junsheng (who does a variant of Chen-style Taiji).

FWIW

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2010, 08:06 PM   #10
AllanF
Location: Shenyang
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 56
China
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Allan,JW,
: ] . I found the clip unapproachable before; but I think your and JW's 2 comments insightful. I think I see a bit more. Not sure, wonder what you guys think. This may only be interesting to me; so...sorry if this is too pedantic.
Allan - after your comment of Yin In, Yang Out, I believe I can actually see a moment where uke is 'breathed in' and there is a small but perceptble jump where I think is the beginning of his loss of control over himself.
And w.r.t. JW's comments; I expected that this worked via a kind of all-around power explosion...but actually it is, as you said, a very precise, very aligned, very clean power release along a specific line of absorption/release. maybe i'm not explaining the difference between what I thought before and after; but it is a big difference in my mind. (I.e. Now I am a little less ignorant than before. only a little!) Thanks a lot.

Anyway; I appreciate the clip and your ideas. a lot. It is fascinating to me all the different ways to think about and discuss these things.

Josh
Josh,
Just a little more on yin ru, yang chu; yang ru yin chu...the principle can be applied to the point of contact (yin being the external flesh yang being the bone marrow) it is also a small circle from the point of contact to the dantian and opposite 'yao' (waist) and thirdly a large circle from opposite foot to the small circle at the dan tian and then over the opponent (It should be yin going down the chest and yang going up the back). Another principle at work here is "tun, tu" (or swallow and spit out), when he does it with one hand the swallow is very small and the yin ru yang chu principle is 3 tight small circles. Later he shows it more obviously with 2 hands.

best
Allan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2010, 11:22 PM   #11
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 510
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Hi Josh, yeah I think I know what you mean-- "power release" can be done with varying degrees of precision, right? Like hitting a wall with all your might would be a different beast from the way LI Chugong is issuing power in this vid, which is targeted to affect the recipient's specific shape and tension-arrangement.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
That's basically true, Jonathan. However the joint-lock makes it difficult for Uke to be able to be totally relaxed.
Interesting point-- this is why aikido has so many pretzley locks, isn't it? They are ways to spool your uke's tension in specific ways, so that he isn't as free to relax here or generate force there. They are pretty direct ways to interact with (take control of) a person's body tension, huh?

Thanks for the Cheng Man Ching video. In terms of learning to look critically at videos-- I can see he is really powerful, but besides that, is this a strong template for a connected type of body? Or is he taking a decent amount of liberty with power/control augmentation that is not dantien-based, on top of his jin usage? Or is he simply so good that he can do really complex things with his limbs, with the dantien still being centrally involved?
--JW
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 06:32 AM   #12
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Thanks for the Cheng Man Ching video. In terms of learning to look critically at videos-- I can see he is really powerful
--JW
I think he looks terrible. Stand alone or by comparison. In comparison to Li Chugong, CMC is but a shadow. Every once in a while I see a video of CMC; I have yet to see anything that impressed me. Why he enjoys some sort of reputation is beyond me. I wonder if it is the "one eyed man is king" analogy.

Quote:
Interesting point-- this is why aikido has so many pretzley locks, isn't it? They are ways to spool your uke's tension in specific ways, so that he isn't as free to relax here or generate force there. They are pretty direct ways to interact with (take control of) a person's body tension, huh?
Externally that may be true, but mores the point you can capture uke's center quite well without the aid of a lock. I think that should be a requirement of all aikido.
Secondly, I think absorbing and cancelling lock attempts and then reversing them (with aiki-not waza reversals) should be taught along side doing them. Learn to do and to undo; to throw and to not be thrown, to lock and to be unlockable, to hit and kick and to absorb the same punishment. It gives a different, more wholistic view, a more complete package.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 09:59 AM   #13
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Quote:
Allan Featherstone wrote: View Post
Another principle at work here is "tun, tu" (or swallow and spit out), when he does it with one hand the swallow is very small and the yin ru yang chu principle is 3 tight small circles. Later he shows it more obviously with 2 hands.

best
Allan
At a recent I Liq Chuan seminar, Sam Chin also demonstrated tun tu in different ways as part of what he calls "absorb and project." I'll see if I can find a video clip where he demonstrates this overtly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2010, 07:30 PM   #14
AllanF
Location: Shenyang
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 56
China
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
At a recent I Liq Chuan seminar, Sam Chin also demonstrated tun tu in different ways as part of what he calls "absorb and project." I'll see if I can find a video clip where he demonstrates this overtly.
That would be cool to see Tom.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2010, 07:49 PM   #15
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Quote:
Allan Featherstone wrote: View Post
That would be cool to see Tom.
Ermmmmm.... there's an old saying in CMA's that says qi does 3 things: float, sink, and 'swalow and spit'. There are examples of 'swallow and spit' in many places, even on YouTube (which ain't in China). Of course if you're looking for a Dalmatian and you don't know what a Dalmatian looks like, you may be looking a long time.

Best.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2010, 08:04 PM   #16
AllanF
Location: Shenyang
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 56
China
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

You presume too much!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2010, 08:57 PM   #17
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 692
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Quote:
Allan Featherstone wrote: View Post
Josh,
Just a little more on yin ru, yang chu; yang ru yin chu...the principle can be applied to the point of contact (yin being the external flesh yang being the bone marrow) it is also a small circle from the point of contact to the dantian and opposite 'yao' (waist) and thirdly a large circle from opposite foot to the small circle at the dan tian and then over the opponent (It should be yin going down the chest and yang going up the back). Another principle at work here is "tun, tu" (or swallow and spit out), when he does it with one hand the swallow is very small and the yin ru yang chu principle is 3 tight small circles. Later he shows it more obviously with 2 hands.

best
Allan
Allan,
This is very interesting (thank you very much), and I've been thinking about this for a while. Any chance you can point to a drawing or schematic? I want to make sure i'm tracking your meaning...i think i am...but ...
Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2010, 02:07 PM   #18
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: YouTube: Li Chugong teaching taiji usage

Quote:
Allan Featherstone wrote: View Post
That would be cool to see Tom.
Allan, I haven't been able to find a clear video example of Sam Chin describing and then demonstrating tun/tou the way he did at the Portland seminar. There may be something close on one of Sam's many DVDs, but I left all of mine with a Portland guy to encourage him in his training.

Sam often uses his own ILC terminology to explain a martial principle in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHuDb9Ou3Kk

Note this is not what Sam referred to as "swallow and spit" at the seminar, but is just an illustration of how Sam explains a principle of application. This is an example of a principle applied to the training partner or opponent, i.e., what is happening to the other person.

Sam will complement that with an explanation of what is happening in his own body (the example here is in another context, producing a wave by absorbing and projecting):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8doU3yMheU

"Float, Sink, Swallow, Spit" is often referred to in southern CMAs, like in these Bak Mei drills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-kbWU7H0vs

and in Lung Ying (the art of the older man in the clip)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-tRnNOhPRE

While southern CMAs seem to have influenced the Chin family art, what Sam demonstrated in Portland was more subtle, powerful, and swifter at touch than the two examples shown above.

Regardless, in demonstration the four are sometimes shown as aspects of the same circle: Swallow = deflecting and adhering, sinking = grounding of the force, taking and moving under the opponent's center, floating = beginning to return the energy, extending into the opponent (the effect can make the opponent feel like they are literally floating), and spit = short pulsing of force (strike). In a very basic sense, swallow and sink might correspond to the "absorbing" concept of Sam's ILC, and float and spit to the "projecting" phase (my very limited and possibly inaccurate understanding of what Sam showed). So much for words . . . hands-on is definitely the way to learn and understand.

It is cool to see subtle and effective demonstrations of jin in other martial arts like Li Chugong demonstrates with his Chen taijiquan--an art that often seems afflicted with belching jin.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Teaching Aikido to Children 2008 Seminar Aviv Teaching 3 10-14-2008 01:23 PM
Teaching Aikido to Children Workshop wmreed Seminars 2 09-06-2008 04:33 PM
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 01:35 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 3 Peter Goldsbury Columns 16 05-28-2007 06:24 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 2 Peter Goldsbury Columns 3 04-19-2007 04:53 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:33 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate