How to hold Uke's wrist in Shiho-nage?

I have a question about how to hold Uke's wrist in Shiho-nage. What position do the thumbs ago? I think you are supposed to torque the wrist a little before pivoting to complete the throw. Any help would be appreciated.

Mr. Davis,

Have you ever heard shihonage referred to as " tenkai kotegaeshi "?
Just curious, and this may help.

Although, it is not necessary to achieve this positioning to execute shihonage.

Train well,

Mickey

I can't say that I have heard it called "tenkai kotegaeshi"

Daniel Davis wrote: I have a question about how to hold Uke's wrist in Shiho-nage. What position do the thumbs ago?

Here is a good video on shiho nage;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cEIQW7eM-s

Daniel Davis wrote: I think you are supposed to torque the wrist a little before pivoting to complete the throw. Any help would be appreciated.

Not anymore than your body movement does.

David

Hold uke's wrist as if it were the tsuka (hilt) of katana..

Hello Daniel,

Your question isn't completely clear to me, and I suspect it might be better answered with a picture. But see if this explanation helps.

Let's assume you are applying shiho nage to uke's left arm. Ideally, your right hand should grasp uke's left hand with your thumb in uke's palm, your fingers on the back of his hand, and his thumb trapped under your hand. Your left hand will grip uke's wrist with your thumb roughly on his pulse, and the base of your index finger on the inside of his ulna (similar to yonkyo). You will express kokyu through your left hand, which will begin the outward rotation of the arm, but I wouldn't necessarily say that you torque it.

Also, remember that your hands must stay in front of your centerline as they move up and down, and should not go above your forehead as you turn.

A good friend of mine has a website with quite a few videos. It might be of some use to you.

www.aikidostudent.com

Better to have your sensei show you in person. I've been told to grab the wrist like holding a baseball bat.

Inocencio Maramba wrote: Hold uke's wrist as if it were the tsuka (hilt) of katana..

This is the correct and most easy to understand explanation without being able to show you in person.

Daniel Davis wrote: I have a question about how to hold Uke's wrist in Shiho-nage. What position do the thumbs ago? I think you are supposed to torque the wrist a little before pivoting to complete the throw. Any help would be appreciated.

As for torquing the wrist, if you're talking about the initial entry, when you have uke's elbow pointing away from you, before you bring it around your head, yes, you should torque it a little to lighten them up and further take their balance.

This is one of the areas where we actually have instructional kuden from Ueshiba so it should be more clear than any number of other matters.

Grasp your partner's right wrist with your right hand and the base of his right thumb with your left hand.

You should consider your opponent's right arm as a sword when you move. Also, it is necessary to control your opponent's wrist with your right thumb.

Grasp the wrist of your partner in such a way that the thumb side of his hand is led out in front of you.

I don't have this one exactly, but something like both thumbs cross the pulse area of opponent's wrist.

Daniel Davis wrote: I have a question about how to hold Uke's wrist in Shiho-nage. What position do the thumbs ago? I think you are supposed to torque the wrist a little before pivoting to complete the throw. Any help would be appreciated.

I take the wrist and twist it like in kotegaeshi, the elbow of uke is by their head, and perhaps my head on their elbow, and then its like throwing a fishing line you take it down. [better to show and demonstrate with feeling than the description I gave, but play around you will get it.]

I will say for more effectiveness to pull ukes arm away from them like ripping out a chicken wing, but this is dangerous if you both dont know whats going on, hence why its not usually done like that in training.

Peace

dAlen

Michael Varin wrote: Hello Daniel, Your question isn't completely clear to me, and I suspect it might be better answered with a picture. But see if this explanation helps. Let's assume you are applying shiho nage to uke's left arm. Ideally, your right hand should grasp uke's left hand with your thumb in uke's palm, your fingers on the back of his hand, and his thumb trapped under your hand. Your left hand will grip uke's wrist with your thumb roughly on his pulse, and the base of your index finger on the inside of his ulna (similar to yonkyo). You will express kokyu through your left hand, which will begin the outward rotation of the arm, but I wouldn't necessarily say that you torque it. Also, remember that your hands must stay in front of your centerline as they move up and down, and should not go above your forehead as you turn. A good friend of mine has a website with quite a few videos. It might be of some use to you. www.aikidostudent.com

I like that site, lots of good tips

Here is another another video showing shiho nage Katate dori omoto and ura.

http://rutube.ru/tracks/1001696.html

This is Chiba sensei on the developement of shiho nage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC_Uctj1CyE

David

While all styles of aikido do mostly the same techniques.. it seems that most styles have slight (or not so slight) variations on how they perform those techniques. Thus, I would ask your sensei what he/she wants you to do.

Otherwise you may take something from here and go to our dojo just to have your sensei tell you that it is "wrong". There are many ways to cross the same river.

Daniel Wilson wrote: There are many ways to cross the same river.

everyone knows that the best way to cross the river is a human cannon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGLArX6eD1M

of course if you want me to do that, you have to twist my wrist in a nasty shiho-nage and shove me down the tube. of course, the ukemi will be hell.

From a slightly different perspective - after nearly 28 years of aikido, my thumbs are quite weak, and rather painful in cold weather and when I wake up. This, I believe, is from the amount of leverage that shiho-nage puts on uke's thumb. These days as tori begins to apply the technique fold my thumb over their wrist, rather than leaving it to be levered against. You can still feel if the technique is being applied effectively, and years down the line you'll have less pain.

Daniel Wilson wrote: While all styles of aikido do mostly the same techniques.. it seems that most styles have slight (or not so slight) variations on how they perform those techniques. Thus, I would ask your sensei what he/she wants you to do. Otherwise you may take something from here and go to our dojo just to have your sensei tell you that it is "wrong". There are many ways to cross the same river.

It's not just styles of Aikido, different teachers from within the same style will have different ways. Ultimately you will find one (or more) method that works for you and it doesn't necessarily have to be exactly as your sensei does it.
Aikido centers on principles, the techniques are the execution of those principles and are subject to many interpretations/variations.

It is good to ask about and experience other variations. As you mention there are many ways to cross the same river and I doubt many senseis believe their method is the only method, so unless you (OP) are doing something really wrong, I doubt your sensei will call you out on it.

FWIW I don't think I have seen shiho-nage done the same way by different instructors, ever.

I think it is one of the most effective, yet diverse in application, techniques in Aikido.
It can be applied from any attack, open handed, tanto-dori, bokken-dori, jo-dori, hanmi-handachi, etc. Truly a great technique but challenging (for me) in that the application varies greatly across different (uke) body types.

Daniel Wilson wrote: I would ask your sensei what he/she wants you to do. Otherwise you may take something from here and go to our dojo just to have your sensei tell you that it is "wrong". There are many ways to cross the same river.

Good point. OTOH, the Plano Aikido website shows a video loop of Christian Tissier performing shiho nage, so I'd guess the dojo where the OP practices teaches a similar form.

FWIW

David

Dalen Johnson wrote: I take the wrist and twist it like in kotegaeshi, the elbow of uke is by their head, and perhaps my head on their elbow, and then its like throwing a fishing line you take it down. [better to show and demonstrate with feeling than the description I gave, but play around you will get it.

That sounds rather painful for uke! In order to make any throw effective, it is best to take uke's balance rather than relying on pain compliance. Somebody bigger and stronger than me (and there are many!) will not allow me to twist their wrist for them, so I rely upon movement and timing to take their balance. As for the ending, dropping my own centre while connected to my own arms will put uke on the floor more effectively than fly fishing or yanking down the toilet chain

Dalen Johnson wrote: I will say for more effectiveness to pull ukes arm away from them like ripping out a chicken wing, but this is dangerous if you both dont know whats going on, hence why its not usually done like that in training.

How exactly will this work on somebody who is built like a brick outhouse? If you can guarantee that all your of attackers will be phsically weaker than you, then fair enough, but I wouldn't risk that!

Ruth

I think of it as - I've attempted to shake the uke's hand, but am holding it at the wrist. Thumb and middle finger encircling the wrist, pinky and #4 applying some bending to the joint through the 5th metacarpal...
W

If you go on the principle that the body's core should drive the technique, then the grab should be just an attachment. That connection should be firm but should not be hard. I personally favor base of thumb (fleshy part) pressed onto uke's wrist and only last three fingers holding gently. thumb and first finger is straight. Katana is mostly held that way, right?

Another thought... One way I've been shown to do shihonage from either kose-dori or shomen is to cut across the abdomen with a sword (while stepping through), turn, and then cut down on the neck as the partner topples forward from the cut.
Replace the sword with the partner's wrist. (right hand-right hand or lefthand-lefthand).

Walter

Ruth Rae wrote: How exactly will this work on somebody who is built like a brick outhouse? If you can guarantee that all your of attackers will be phsically weaker than you, then fair enough, but I wouldn't risk that! Ruth

Perhaps we have a similar approach...

How Im doing it works against any attacker, larger and smaller.
[I kind of figured it out awhile back after being frustrated with another technique, kote-gaeshi, not working on resistant/stronger ukes... now I get it to work everytime]

Not sure how to explain the technique more clearer now, but Im sure a better analogy will come to me.

As for the pain, I am mindful with how I do the technique with the uke.

A lot of times people are frustrated that the technique is not working against a 'resisting' opponent and they want to 'feel' it work. Its one way to help reveal 'sloppy technique' by adding resistance, or rather to show where there is missing 'control' in the the 'flow', as it were. [Do rolls out of ikkyo, etc. - and help them focus on the center point and pinning, etc.]

[At each point uke should be in 'check', as it were.]

Another way, which you must be mindful of and is typically shown but not really practiced for safety, is ukes arm once elbow is up by the ear - if your on the street, etc. and you pull it out its like popping a wing off a chicken. [You only have to do it lightly for someone to get the point of this version, and then you focus on something that is less detrimental to an attacker, but gives you control]

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
you did bring up a very valid point about someone being a brick house though...... the fact of the matter is if you get someone in shape, [and MMA trained at that] - if your not in shape and cross-trained as well, Aikido is going to give you one heck of a time regardless of who you are, and what rank you have.
[The safest, and really only bet, is to avoid/head away from the situation.]

If you can stretch, [yoga], have balance/cordination, [i.e., ballet], have strength, as well as know ground fighting and a striking art - Aikido can be a nice finishing art, as it were. [again, there is a time and place for everything, but since you mentioned the brick house bit I saw that as a valid point and basically the above is what will 'deal' with it. [I started MMA on the side a couple months back so Im playing with both the yin and yang of martial arts, and trying out my aikido in those type of situations to get 'real time feedback', and that is my opinion based on what I have experienced thus far.]