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Old 02-02-2010, 09:28 AM   #101
Mike Sigman
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Here's a direct question : Ignatius please show a diagram of the hard, articulated muscle-like dantien. Preferably from a reliable medical source.
How about that picture of O-Sensei where he was portrayed as a Kami with a protuberant belly area? Would that do? Going back all the way into the murky past of India, the development of the Hara was a sign of people doing the breathing exercises and manipulations and was considered one of the hallmarks of an enlightened/cultivated man. The idea of a developed hara is fairly common and old.... it's just that most people in the West didn't understand what it meant.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:30 AM   #102
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Hi Joep,

Fair dues for the explication on Kokyu ho. In terms of tension: How do you find your breathing integrates with the dispersal of tension through the body (If at all?)
Very good question, Oisin.

Mike
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:22 AM   #103
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
How about that picture of O-Sensei where he was portrayed as a Kami with a protuberant belly area? Would that do? Going back all the way into the murky past of India, the development of the Hara was a sign of people doing the breathing exercises and manipulations and was considered one of the hallmarks of an enlightened/cultivated man. The idea of a developed hara is fairly common and old.... it's just that most people in the West didn't understand what it meant.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
That may be a good illustration of the dantien or hara. I wouldn't know. But it doesn't fit Ignatius' description. Is it a specific "hard articulated muscle-like" structure, or is it a broader concept involving multiple tissues in the area of the belly. This could include several muscles, that might be hard when contracted.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:50 AM   #104
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
There's something interesting happening here. You're posting under the assumption that if you put caveats in your post, you'll be cut some slack. I'm posting under the assumption that everything that's posted is open for discussion. I think we're both correct in our assumptions, but if we continue for too long in this way, we'll find the quality of discussion going downhill quite quickly. You'll be doing the best job you can to find the right words, only to find me critiquing everything you say. Result: we both lose.
So instead of mostly commenting on what you write, I'll focus more on adding my view on things.
This post of yours is more usefull as it adds information to the discussion. I put the caveats in the hope that you will get a better understanding of where I'm coming from. Context is important.

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Something that has worked for me is not moving my arms at all, but just doing the weight shift. That way you're sure the only power that's being generated is coming from the legs and the only thing you have to worry about is how to get that power to the hands. When that's in order, one can start moving the arms.
I haven't been working on the snapping yet. Am building up to it, but at the moment it results in too much involvement of the muscles in my arms and shoulder.
Interesting. This matches up with my experience. These days I'm more concerned with whatb the snap/bounce at the end should feel like. I'm not quite sure what I'm aiming for.

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
What do you feel when you receive a push without tension in arms or shoulders? I'm happy with myself if I don't feel any tension anywhere in my body and I do feel more weight resting on my lower legs. (When standing up, I'd feel more weight resting on my feet.)
IMO, stage one for kokyu-ho would be to gound uke's push and then to come up and forward by unbending the legs without introducing any tension in the body. (Feeling the leg muscles do some work is unavoidable, of course.)
Stage two would be not to ground uke's push dead-on, but at an angle, so that he pushes himself away. (This will not work if uke realizes in time you're messing with the angles, btw. But that's not a big issue: it just means that it won't work when uke has more skill than you and is not allowing you to have it work.).
Not much to add here. I can't say I've ever really managed removing all tension. Certainly not when faced with a strong push. One difference, I rarely push up with the legs. I am more likely to try to keep my center low and raise uke's center.

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
By straightness you mean head over hips, right?
I wasn't trying to imply you thought those two as the same thing. I linked the two together: straight back means relaxed lower back, which improves ones groundedness.
I agree. You're very far from convincing me that Claude's not a good example though.

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Re: the counter-example: you want a video from someone who I'd consider as someone with a relaxed lower back and little to no isolated arm movement? I can't think of one at the moment. Perhaps I can find one of an older O-Sensei doing bokken suburi, but that would be somewhat a cheap move, as videos of O-Sensei are part of the definition of Aikido.
Secondly, wouldn't it be better if I just explained why I think these things are important? See the rest of my post for this..)
Explain away. But I am a fan of visual aids. Feel free to use O-sensei if you want, especially if you can explain what to look for and that the thing is visible.

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Thirdly, why ask for my experience? Discussing the two points I raised and seeing if I have anything meaningful to say about them seems to me more productive.
Finally, I don't think I can provide any worthwhile verifiable information on my experience or knowledge. I've practiced Aikido for about 7 years, my grade is Shodan. I've been to one Akuzawa seminar and two of Mike Sigman's. And I've been practicing Taikiken for about three years now. So what does that tell you? (I'm truly curious.)
Just to know where you are coming from. It tells me we're probably in a similar stage of learning aikido wise (I am an Aikikai (USAF) shodan with 11 years of training who should be testing for nidan soon), but that you've had direct exposure to proponents of IS/IT.

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Tension in the shoulder creates an easy lever for the other guy to manipulate your upper body. If you can relax your whole body and let the power pass to the ground (grounding a push) or come up from the ground (pushing) through your body, there is no easy lever for the other guy to manipulate you with. Either there is no lever (you're 'stronger' than he is) or your whole body is the lever (he's 'stronger' than you are).
That would fit with my experience. One thing I'm trying to improve on is "grounding a push". My main problem is that I'm not quite sure how to go about it.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 02-02-2010, 12:38 PM   #105
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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I agree. You're very far from convincing me that Claude's not a good example though.
Take this with the following cautions: I'm a beginner at IT, the video of "Claude" is a training vid, the vid is short, and I've never trained with Claude Berthiaume.

This is what I noted as sticking out. Around 4:13-4:16, especially at the 4:15 area, as he turns he does two things.
1. His shoulders move exactly with his hips
2. He appears to weight his left side right before he cuts.

NOTE!!! See cautions above. I'm not stating that Claude Berthiaume isn't capable, isn't a good instructor, etc, etc, etc. It's a training vid and he seems to be going over physical details of suburi.

I am just pointing out things that I don't do in my Internal Training. Those two things I noted are things I wouldn't do. My upper body is just a ribcage that rotates around my spine. My upper body connects to the lower "V" portion (the groin area) of my body. When I turn, I turn from the waist (which includes that lower V portion) but I don't turn with hips/shoulders as one unit.

I don't put weight all on one side. And I try to keep my spine straight in the middle. Imagine the spine being on a pivot point at the bottom of it. Spine straight but can pivot on that point. If I put more weight on one leg to turn on that leg, the pivot point tends not to move, but the spine does, which causes it to be curved or bent.

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That would fit with my experience. One thing I'm trying to improve on is "grounding a push". My main problem is that I'm not quite sure how to go about it.
I started out by having a partner push on my extended hand (out to the side) and trying to let that push go into my opposite foot. It helps if the partner pushes towards that direction initially. Later, the push can go straight across the shoulders. If you tip over, you're probably using too much upper body muscle.

Then, start with contradictory forces. Have a force go out your arms/hands from your spine while at the same time, a force is coming in through your arms/hands into your spine. Getting both of those going was tough, but it definitely changes the quality of how you receive a push. Course, you have to have contradictory forces going elsewhere, too, not just the arms.

Think of it this way. Let the energy of the push come through your arm, into your spine, down, and into the ground under the opposite foot. Then, think of Tohei's push test where people think of the arm as a water hose and water is flowing out the arm and out the hand. Combine the two and have them going at the same time.
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Old 02-02-2010, 12:48 PM   #106
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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That may be a good illustration of the dantien or hara. I wouldn't know. But it doesn't fit Ignatius' description. Is it a specific "hard articulated muscle-like" structure, or is it a broader concept involving multiple tissues in the area of the belly. This could include several muscles, that might be hard when contracted.
Well, actually my point was that these probably ARE the same thing and the concept is not new.... it's been around a long time. When the dantien is used to control the whole body, it develops muscularly because it has to. You can't use a part of the body a lot without it developing in strength.

The physical development of the hara is such a recognized phenomenon in Oriental martial-arts that there are old jokes about being able to discern what a person's skills are by the way his hara is developed, and so on. The way an expert calligrapher does characters was also supposed to be an indication of his hara and interenal strength development (which is why in the movie "Hero", Jet Li wanted to see how 'Broken Sword' did a certain character with a brush).

Maybe the point is this conversation and some of the conversations over the last five years is that there's still a lot of new things to discover about Asian martial-arts that many 'ranked' teachers simply didn't know?

From an interview with Seiseki Abe
http://www.page.sannet.ne.jp/shun-q/INTERVIEW-E.html

Quote:
4、INFLUENCE OF AIKIDO ON CALLIGRAPHY

What influence did practicing both misogi and aikido eventually have on your calligraphy?

The three converged into one for me. Aikido, for example, is ultimately not really about twisting wrists, causing pain, or throwing people; it is about cultivating "ki," which is something distinctly different from these things. The same is true of calligraphy. There are five or ten thousand characters we can brush in learning about form and line, but ultimately we are pursuing something beyond these, and that something is none other than "ki".So calligraphy and aikido became the exact same pursuit for me and I began to practice both as hard as I could.

 

You once remarked that "the essence of calligraphy lies in kokyu. (lit. breath)." Is this the same sort of kokyu we find in aikido?

The very same.
Mike Sigman
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:39 PM   #107
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
In terms of tension: How do you find your breathing integrates with the dispersal of tension through the body (If at all?)
Exhaling deeply helps relaxing the muscles and thus removing muscular tension. Getting a massage would have a similar relaxing effect, so I don't think this particular fact is very interesting.
More interesting is how breathing exercises can condition the suit, so that the suit can carry more of the load (besides the bones and a small amount of muscle). Basic idea behind these exercises is to adopt a posture that stretches the suit and then do deep abdominal breathing or reverse breathing. (Are you familiar with the concept of the 'suit'? The word has seen some use on this forum before, so I'm assuming you are.)
Of course, you can do the same thing during kokyu-ho to make as much use of the suit as possible to carry the load. Engaging the suit in this manner can be seen as a way of dispersing the tension as it makes your body better at bearing a load. Otoh, stretching the suit also results in a particular kind of tension and so does reverse breathing, although pressure might be a better word than tension when referring to the relation between the suit and breathing.
To be honest, I don't really focus on my breathing while doing kokyu-ho; there are more important things for me to focus on at this point. During solo practice I do actively work with my breathing and I have noticed there is some carry-over to partner work.
I can also imagine that you can do more complicated things with the breath, although I would be careful not to become too dependent on having to time your breathing with what you want to do. Don't know if that would be an issue.
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:26 PM   #108
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
I put the caveats in the hope that you will get a better understanding of where I'm coming from. Context is important.
Agreed.

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I can't say I've ever really managed removing all tension. Certainly not when faced with a strong push.
It's a lot harder with a strong push. No question there.

Quote:
I am more likely to try to keep my center low and raise uke's center.
But how does that work?
If I take the 'mess with the angle' approach, my center staying low and uke's center raising is one of the possible outcomes. It's just a matter of choosing the right angles.

Quote:
Explain away. But I am a fan of visual aids. Feel free to use O-sensei if you want, especially if you can explain what to look for and that the thing is visible.
Check out the beginning of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GBuNOrE6WY. Notice how Yamaguchi's hips are slightly tilted back, making his back form an almost straight line.

Quote:
That would fit with my experience. One thing I'm trying to improve on is "grounding a push". My main problem is that I'm not quite sure how to go about it.
Stand with your feet shoulder width apart. Have someone push gently (very important!) from the side on your hip in the direction of your opposite foot (so left foot if push comes from the right). Relax as much as possible and allow the push to go straight into your foot. The person pushing should feel as if he's pushing against the ground. Then let him push on your shoulder from the side, then on your extended elbow, then etc.
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Old 02-02-2010, 05:39 PM   #109
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
please show a diagram of the hard, articulated muscle-like dantien. Preferably from a reliable medical source.
You're looking for something structurally concrete - like an anatomically identifiable "object"? Well, until such time as western medicine catches up, and an autopsy is performed on someone with a well-developed hara, I'd say, you've got Buckley's.

The Taoist classics speak of the dan tien as a cavity. That, in itself should provide a big clue... (quick, dig out your 1918 1st Ed. of Henry Grey's seminal work and see if you can find it!).

For more info, see section E @ http://duversity.org/elixir/
And an enlarged diagram here:
http://www.alice-dsl.net/taijiren/neijingtu_MingLiu.htm

Look for the words 正丹田 on the diagram.

Unfortunately, that's the best I can do, since I don't have those fancy letters in front or at the end of my name.

Ignatius
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Old 02-02-2010, 07:03 PM   #110
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, actually my point was that these probably ARE the same thing and the concept is not new.... it's been around a long time. When the dantien is used to control the whole body, it develops muscularly because it has to. You can't use a part of the body a lot without it developing in strength.
Which was my initial point as well - you can't develop it unless you exercise it - just like any other muscle in the body.

I read somewhere on some reiki site that the hara simply refers to the "belly", and that the term "big hara" refers to someone who is spiritually developed/enlightened. Hara is sometimes used as a "shortcut" to refer to the seiki tandan/lower dantien. IOW, it is used to point to the same thing. So, by implication, a developed hara is indicative of a developed dantien - which, of course, is not to be confused with such "development" by copious consumption of the liquid amber...

Ignatius
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:35 PM   #111
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Thanks Mark and Joep for the ideas on grounding exercises. Just tried a bit with my wife (an advantage of having a spouse who also trains in aikido). Also did some kokyu-ho. Lots of room for improvement, but isn't there always.

Mark, had to smile with all your caveats about Claude (I presume to make sure I or others don't get upset). I'm not that easily upset. I didn't choose a clip of Claude (it's an exerpt from a weapons seminar and not a training vid per se) because of any link to the world of IT/IS discussed here. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard him use the terms ki or aiki when instructing. But back a few posts, we were discussing posture and bokken suburi. Claude, and other students of Kanai sensei such as my direct teachers here in Quebec City, are the source of just about all my weapons work. So this is what I strive for in my training. I find the differences mentioned from those of you in the IT world (even if your not experts by your own reconning) interesting. It gives me things to think about when analysing my own movements. Which brings me to a specific question. Why would you not move your shoulders with your hips on a sword cut of the type shown? What is the down side in your opinion?

Joep, Yamaguchi also has very nice posture. I think this may be a little too subtle for my eyes.

And for all those attempting to describe the dantien, your descriptions are hard to follow (a hard, articulated, muscle-like cavity? A muscle with a cavity?)

Jonathan Olson
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:33 PM   #112
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Ths.

And for all those attempting to describe the dantien, your descriptions are hard to follow (a hard, articulated, muscle-like cavity? A muscle with a cavity?)
dude. "scientist guy". it's like a 'hole' in electron-hole theory. it is a virtual construct. It is not a muscle exactly; but the absence of muscle (i.e. specifically: YOu manipulate the boundary layer of muscle) Since it is defined that way it has some weird properties. Such as the ability to create torque (/a million pounds per square inch; but in rotation: over short distance/angle; marrionette-connected to the structure + suit to all points in the body (i.e. think very heavy cannonball swallowed to the pit of the lower basin; which carries no mass (i.e. for it does not displace(etc/often)) but rather it 'rotates', 'revolves', torques or whatever. it feels. IT connects. IT couples. IT torques. it moves strong. it moves skeleton, strong. it is the answer to dan's question of why Ueshiba taught pushing (IMO; all of this is in fact just my opinion). Because; it is the essence of 'putting your body behind a push'. The specific way in which the sacrum and pelvis lock up at the SI joint in a body achieving force-closure of the joint. 'Standing Erect'. The setting of just that one alignnment of the body (posit: ) pre-defines many potentialities and eventualities. Anyhoo... The hole can 'migrate' in the theory, but it best does (/actuate) this activity in the body by connecting to the 'whole body connected changed body' in that the suit is active (e.g. "nomex on" (/suit "on"); as he said). It couples by balancing the 'structure' that many have written on; and the 'energy - suit' ;(i.e./ as mediated by flex of muscles (/posture/programmed practiced movement/leaning into the wing). It is about being able to naturally (i.e. as you do, now, but in a differen way). Float the body upon the Dantien. Some people feel that thought is best expressed as "Dantien Region", as that is more specifically what it is. I think. As a 'virtual' construct; you can change it's size. You can 'lock' the body onto the dantien. This is what you do when you see a 250lb guy's gonna hit you. Pavel Tsatsouline calls it "Zipping Up" your body. I think. He's good too.

and on and on. I should say; though I think that is my original writing on it in that way. i do not know that it is 'right' in any way; in that i have confirmed it. but anyway that' s waht I was thinking.

just for fun : ] whatduya think? i put lots of those 'etcetera's up there; just so you know's i knows what i'm talking about. Just to be clear: I don't . This was just training idears. That is alll my opinion. IMHO. And of course I would love to hear your (or anyon'es) reactions to it, thoughts, corrections, addendums, no maths erick. : ]
good luck bro; keeps coool. Check out this
< This , for some good ideas. It's not Aikido; but I think there are some lessons there, to be sure. I like what they said about th GrounND strength and internal and external stuffs. definition-wise.
&

http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/XY_SanTiShi/XY_SanTiShi.html under the general sentiment that it's good to know what other guys, who want to be strong, are spending theirselves's time doing in training. i don't really know about all that stuffs.

http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/articles.htm

good Luck; hope this helps.

My only advice; Don't get carried away. Seriously. It is something cool you can do with your body. It is a bunch of thoughts all at once and you can't figure them out; and IT is a very deep study. But it is about Intent, Effort, Flexing,Movement, Life and Spirit. I read in Ellis Amdur's book "Hidden in Plain Sight", (which is a good book *Great and you should read it), but i'll probably butcher the quote; It is about making the body into a precision slide rule of an instrument. . .. or something like that. you know that quote

p.s. speaking of books; i was looking at this. Chen Zhonghua. Looks pretty neat. good luck bud.
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:36 PM   #113
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

p.s. yeah ; that was irritating. you guys should help (i.e. Actually Help™) whenever you can! You coulda helped better; but whatever. i don't mean to harsh yer buz. cheers dudes. it's fun talking with other weird people that obsess about what you think. and for that i am grateful. : ]
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:55 PM   #114
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

oh yeah.. and this is probably just me being silly; but 'for kokyu development' i thought this,, or, if you prefer this. the visual; tactile etc/ feedback is instantaneous an unequivocal when oscillating it. http://bodyblade.com/bodyblade-home/
you have not been spammed. stand *down* : ]
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:10 AM   #115
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
...the feedback is instantaneous an unequivocal when oscillating it. ...
no jokes.
that's not what I meant when I wrote that. Get your minds out of the gutter.
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Old 02-03-2010, 02:25 AM   #116
Michael Douglas
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Now I understand your description of a "hard, articulate muscle-like structure", thanks Ignatius.
In other words, it isn't?
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Old 02-03-2010, 04:49 AM   #117
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

My pointing out the tanden and the relationship to the hara was to specifically answer Dirk's question on what it means to "move from center". It was not to be drawn into a baited request for specific anatomical musculature supported by reliable medical sources.

IF it was a muscle, I would have merely referred to it as a muscle - and not "muscle-like". It's not some specific anatomical structure, despite the fact that it represents a fixed locale within the body. If it were, do you not think that Grey's Anatomy would have listed it, with a big fat red arrow pointing to it's Latin nomenclature...? And just because it isn't referenced in some authoritative (western) medical textbook, doesn't mean it doesn't exist either. After all, a cavity, or a black hole for that matter, doesn't exist in and of itself... does it?

So, you can either take the information presented prima facie, ignore it, dismiss it out of hand as pure unadulterated baloney, or try and figure it out for yourself - like everyone else who has had to.

But until you can feel your tanden, and understand how to articulate it, what purpose that articulation serves, what relationship does that have with breathing (kokyu) and pressure manipulation, etc. etc. - any further discussion is fruitless. At least for me. ;o)

Ignatius
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Old 02-03-2010, 06:56 AM   #118
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Mark, had to smile with all your caveats about Claude (I presume to make sure I or others don't get upset). I'm not that easily upset.
You have to be very careful here on Aikiweb when discussing pictures or videos. Other people who have given critiques have been threatened with lawsuits. Sad, but true. The thread is still here somewhere.

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Which brings me to a specific question. Why would you not move your shoulders with your hips on a sword cut of the type shown? What is the down side in your opinion?
This is something that you'd have to experience to really understand or believe... but I'll try to describe it. (None of this came from me, btw. I learned it from someone else, so if I butcher the idea, it's my fault.) This is only an example and not kata or a drill or any of that. Just something to try to get the idea across.

Stand with two people in front of you. Each person is 45 degrees off your center, one to the left and one to the right. Each person is within one-step cutting distance so that you only have to take one step straight forward to reach either one.

Now, go through the motions of cutting each person using your method of keeping the shoulders/hips together. Keep a very critical eye towards what your body has to do to cut the second person. You'll find that you have to actually move at least one leg a second time to cut the second person.

Now, reset the positions and try this ... step straight forward once. Leave your hips facing forward (important to keep them forward) and rotate your shoulders to the left and cut person 1. Then rotate your shoulders the opposite way (to the right) and cut person 2. You only have to take one step to cut both people.

Course, if you're like me, you'll find that you're movement is stiff and muscled and lacks power because you haven't trained that way at all. It doesn't "feel" natural at all. And it doesn't seem or feel effective.

But, given the right training (Internal Training) and you find that this type of movement and cutting is:

1. Very, very quick. A lot quicker than the hip/shoulder together movement.
2. Powerful. Much more power generating through a straight spine with spirals, ground, and hara.
3. Less movement.
4. Gain of time. You actually cut quicker because you don't have to reset and/or move your hips to cut a second time.
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Old 02-03-2010, 07:12 AM   #119
jss
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Now, reset the positions and try this ... step straight forward once. Leave your hips facing forward (important to keep them forward) and rotate your shoulders to the left and cut person 1. Then rotate your shoulders the opposite way (to the right) and cut person 2. You only have to take one step to cut both people.
Just wanted to add that the above makes more sense when keeping the following in mind:
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
My upper body is just a ribcage that rotates around my spine. My upper body connects to the lower "V" portion (the groin area) of my body. When I turn, I turn from the waist (which includes that lower V portion) but I don't turn with hips/shoulders as one unit.
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Old 02-03-2010, 07:57 AM   #120
bulevardi
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

First of all, thank you all for your advices and explanations (and funny argues).
I already have tons of stuff to read for now, links provided, references to other topics on this forum etc...
So when I have further questions I'll reply, but for now I haven't read all yet (I'm running out of time).

Anyway, keep on going discussing ;-)

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Old 02-03-2010, 01:17 PM   #121
MM
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Now, reset the positions and try this ... step straight forward once. Leave your hips facing forward (important to keep them forward) and rotate your shoulders to the left and cut person 1. Then rotate your shoulders the opposite way (to the right) and cut person 2. You only have to take one step to cut both people.
Wanted to clarify the part in bold and underlined. That "one step" was the very first initial straight forward step, not more steps as you cut.
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Old 02-03-2010, 02:43 PM   #122
Fred Little
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
You have to be very careful here on Aikiweb when discussing pictures or videos. Other people who have given critiques have been threatened with lawsuits. Sad, but true. The thread is still here somewhere.
Oh Mark,

That claim of threatened lawsuit was a nonsensical assertion made by a serial abuser of the English language posing as an innocent victim when it was first made, and it's no less nonsensical when you repeat such a fundamentally silly claim as if it ever had any credibility whatsoever.

FL

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Old 02-03-2010, 03:36 PM   #123
MM
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Fred Little wrote: View Post
Oh Mark,

That claim of threatened lawsuit was a nonsensical assertion made by a serial abuser of the English language posing as an innocent victim when it was first made, and it's no less nonsensical when you repeat such a fundamentally silly claim as if it ever had any credibility whatsoever.

FL
I know that. But at the time, quite a few people took it seriously. If I remember correctly, I think there was even some "time outs" given for that little "spat". I could be wrong, though.

Still, history has a way of repeating itself, some people don't know about the incident, some don't remember it, and lastly I don't want to give the impression that I'm denigrating anyone's abilities considering I think my abilities suck.
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Old 02-03-2010, 04:18 PM   #124
Janet Rosen
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
That may be a good illustration of the dantien or hara. I wouldn't know. But it doesn't fit Ignatius' description. Is it a specific "hard articulated muscle-like" structure, or is it a broader concept involving multiple tissues in the area of the belly. This could include several muscles, that might be hard when contracted.
The concept of hara harkens to a very different conception of what comprises a humn body then the classical Greek conception based on muscle and sinew. I would refer you to "The Expressiveness of the Body and the Divergence of Greek and Chinese Medicine" by Shigehisa Kuriyama for a very readable explanation of this. It is not a muscle or muscles.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 02-03-2010, 05:02 PM   #125
JW
 
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Josh, that was one of your best stream-of-consciousness posts yet. I don't know if those are meant to be taken literally but they always leave me with a certain feeling.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
It is not a muscle exactly; but the absence of muscle (i.e. specifically: YOu manipulate the boundary layer of muscle)
My favorite part. Again don't know how literally that should be taken.. I think of it more like poetry, and the point of view is perfect for me.
--JW
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