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Old 09-03-2000, 12:02 PM   #1
Kevin73
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I was wondering, how do you deal with a boxer's jab? I can see the applications of a committed punch whether it's a haymaker, hook, cross, or a straight. But, the jab doesn't seem committed enough that the striker would be off balance to lead him.

I would greatly appreciate some feedback on dealing with that. Thanks in advance.
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Old 09-03-2000, 02:27 PM   #2
Nick
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The best I could do is this:

atemi, and in that split second when he's off balance mentally, use it to blend with him and apply a technique.

-Nick

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Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 09-03-2000, 04:10 PM   #3
Tim Haffner
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Smile Boxer's jab

Try not to focus entirely on the jab. If you try to apply technique to the hand or wrist, it will not work. I've seen kotegaeshi applied to a very fast jab, when the instructor moved in on the side, began by putting the back of his hand on the attacker's shoulder and sliding down to the wrist. He said that if he started at the forearm or wrist he would miss.

Also, balance taking or kuzushi, is more important than applying specific technique. If you can enter deeply and turn, you will have a variety of techniques to apply, but kuzushi after entering is most important.

Tim Haffner
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"All energy flows at the whims of the Great Magnet. What a fool I was to defy Him." Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
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Old 09-04-2000, 01:02 AM   #4
George S. Ledyard
 
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Jab

Quote:
Kevin73 wrote:
I was wondering, how do you deal with a boxer's jab? I can see the applications of a committed punch whether it's a haymaker, hook, cross, or a straight. But, the jab doesn't seem committed enough that the striker would be off balance to lead him.

I would greatly appreciate some feedback on dealing with that. Thanks in advance.
There are several posiibilities... You deflect the jab with the "same side" hand while doing an atemi on the inside with the cross hand. You can deflect with the cross hand and deliver an atemi with the same side hand. You can both deflect and atemi with the same side hand (my preferred method (this is a Wing Chun Jeet Chun Choi I believe) this allows you to trap with the cross hand. This last one gives you the most choices about what Aikido technique to follow up with (ikkyo, kokyunage, modifieds figure four, sankyo)

The final possibility is to have such a light touch with the same hand delection that when the jabber pulls back his jab he actually pulls the atemi into himself.

You will notice that all these have an atemi and entering movement in common. Also, no grabbing or trapping exists separate from an atemi.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 09-04-2000, 09:44 AM   #5
Aiki1
 
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Always a tricky thing, this dealing with a boxer or kickboxer, for instance, who has a fast jab. Tricky because of the speed, the followup with the other hand, and the fact that often they are used to getting hit and won't necessarily respond to atemi - sometimes yes sometimes no in my experience.

Some things that may help to understand - deal with the whole person but don't forget the actual attack - meaning evade and enter so you have better position and can take what's offered from there, not at the range of the punch, and also deal with their mind/intention. Another thing, it's pretty well-established that you won't catch the jabbing hand, so don't try, you'll just get hit with the cross. Try practicing following the jab in and checking the elbow or just the bicep (really just below the shoulder) - that especially doesn't move through the range of the hand but stays relatively in one space that you can track easily. That is one way of actually getting a kote-gaeshi, but it's donwe tight, not with a big circle or lead. The trick is entering and not getting hit with the follow-up punch.

Last, something that may help also is the notion of dealing with the person, not the attack - this is why someone would use atemi, but there are sometimes better (in the case of someone who will not react) ways of leading the mind and interupting them for your entry - this is hard to explain - a flurry of hand movement while moving in to "beat down" any punches, things like this can be effective but you must enter fast and with total commitment - that's why it takes a lot of practice.


Larry Novick
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ACE Aikido
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Old 09-04-2000, 12:43 PM   #6
tedehara
 
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Too Close

Quote:
Kevin73 wrote:
I was wondering, how do you deal with a boxer's jab? I can see the applications of a committed punch whether it's a haymaker, hook, cross, or a straight. But, the jab doesn't seem committed enough that the striker would be off balance to lead him.
If someone is close enough to jab you, then distance (ma-ai) has already been broken. If you find yourself in that situation, then just step back.

When the boxer comes to attack, that's when you should move. Take your timing from their intention, don't focus on anything - especially their hands. There are some people who can strike faster than you can see.

The first thing you need to do, before ever attempting any technique, is get out of the way . Once you're out of his line of attack, you can try something - running away is always an option.

One thing you can do to disuade a boxer from attacking is to change your hamni (stance). Since you've been practicing your aikido on "both sides" , you can face them like a southpaw faces a right-handed boxer. Fighters generally dislike that, since it throws their perception off.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 09-04-2000, 09:09 PM   #7
Aiki1
 
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Re: Too Close

Quote:
tedehara wrote:
If someone is close enough to jab you, then distance (ma-ai) has already been broken. If you find yourself in that situation, then just step back.
Actually, stepping "back" isn't a great idea unless that's the only direction you can go in - stepping to the side and/or circling if you can is better, because often a trained fighter will take advantage of any backstep on your part.

Quote:
When the boxer comes to attack, that's when you should move. Take your timing from their intention...
That's one way to approach it, another is to be the one to intiate movement and therefore "leading" so as not to give "control" of the situation to the attacker.

Tricky thing sometimes facing this if you aren't used to getting hit etc.

Larry Novick
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ACE Aikido
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Old 09-05-2000, 07:56 AM   #8
chillzATL
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There are so many factors to train for in this type of situation though. Is this a real boxer or just some joe taking a boxers stance? There is HUGE difference in speed, power and technique between the two. As with all aikido technique, atemi is important, even moreso on this situation. The most important thing, IMO, is to deflect the jab. In classes that we've worked on this, we have always practiced parrying/slapping the jab aside for a good long time before going into actual technique. You don't want to trade atemi for punch with a boxer, you will lose. So being out of the line of attack is paramount, even if you don't manage to execute a technique on the first attack. As far as technique I would go with more Irimi techinques (irimi-nage-, ago-tsuke-age, etc) as they flow directly from an atemi to the attackers face giving little time for him to react. If you are dealing with a trained boxer and try to apply techniques that deal with controlling the punching arm, you may find yourself in a struggle because boxers train to not leave an arm hanging. so he's immediately going to retract that punching hand after throwing it and unless your atemi was extra effective he's going to be in a position to resist you controlling his arm. Ask Sensei!! hope this helps.
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Old 09-05-2000, 08:01 AM   #9
Axiom
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Another thing you should note- boxing, in general, ignores most things beneath the upper body, so while they might be too well adapted to punching, upper body atemi(and conditioned against it), they won't protect themselves instinctively against kicks and suchlike.

One technique that I was considering that I think was mentioned by Ledyard sensei(at least in passing)- try lightly touching their jabbing arm, and restrain it if you can. That way, they may overcompensate to remove the pressure of their arm, unbalancing them for an omote Iriminage, or even an omote kotegaeshi.

I suppose if you were fast enough, or they were quite slow(not likely in a boxer), you could move to their outside and do a ura iriminage.

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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
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Old 09-05-2000, 08:22 AM   #10
Paul
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Defence against a Jab

I know this may put some noses out of place, however, how many people who have answered this thread box or have boxed? The reason I ask is that some of the answers seem a little naive ( I box );

There are several posiibilities... You deflect the jab with the "same side" hand while doing an atemi on the inside with the cross hand. You can deflect with the same hand and deliver an atemi with the same side hand. You can both deflect and atemi with the same side hand (my preferred method (this is a Wing Chun Jeet Chun Choi I believe) this allows you to trap with the cross hand.

Now it seesm George has worked on this and I am sure it works for him but for those who have never tried this and then to try it for the first time against a boxer will get very hurt. As a boxer you develop automatic responses to being struck, you strike back. The jab is a feeler it isn't mean't to damage but to open up to bring about a droppong of the other fella's guard very often I am looking for my opponent to react to the jab as it will expose him in some way. Also boxers always always use combinations and what starts these comboinations is contact. I throw a punch I feel contact I throw another punch I feel contatct I throw another punch so deflecting etc will only bring about another punch ( a more commited attack which we are use in aikido ). Most trainers will teach you to "slip inside" an opponents guard; A jab is thrown don't try to touch it slip to the side/under it and throw a punch of your own. This has many advantages first of all the counter comes as a bloody big surprise! and since I ahven't hit anything with my jab I haven't even started with my follow up. In my oponion this is the safest but the most difficult way to deal with a jab. You really need to get in the ring and learn to "read" the jab.

Now most people here, I am sure, don't want to get into the ring and have no experience facing boxers. As an aikido-deshi my advice to them is very simple. TAKE THE JAB!!! put your habds up and take it on your hands and close the distance. This isn't hard, everyone has seen two boxers hugging in the ring, this is what you must do. Imagine what you could do from behind a boxer. You will take some shots on the hands as you step in, since the boxer is in jabbing range he is only a step away. Circle to the side to negate one of his hands and step in to negate both of them you can't box from here but you can do aikido at this range.

One word on ma-ai fighting ma-ai it one arms length away the same distance you need to be if you are going to apply atemi or shomen etc. It is very close alot closer than expected in my opinion.


Regards Paul

Regards Paul Finn
Edinburgh
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Old 09-05-2000, 10:42 AM   #11
BC
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Many good points here. One thing I might add about ma-ai is that one important point about maintaining proper ma-ai is that if done correctly, it can force an attacker to commit or extend an attack. Since very often a jab-like punch is used to create an opening or distraction until a more damaging strike can be applied, one can possibly stay out of range of the jab until your opponent attacks with a more committed attack. If this isn't possible or you don't want to do this, than I would most likely enter on the outside of the attacking hand, which opens up a slew of various techniques. Just my two cents worth.
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Old 09-05-2000, 03:17 PM   #12
chillzATL
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Re: Defence against a Jab

[quote]Paul wrote:
[b]I know this may put some noses out of place, however, how many people who have answered this thread box or have boxed? The reason I ask is that some of the answers seem a little naive ( I box );

That's why I prefaced my comment. the situation differs greatly depending on the attackers skill. If it's a trained boxer it's going to be a completely different situation than some joe on the street throwing a jab. The guy on the street wants to take you out with that jab. That's his weapon. The boxer, as you said, does not. He wants to feel you out with that lead jab and cross with the other hand. But then again, that's a boxer in the ring. A boxer on the street is going to have a different mindset than in the ring. He may feel that a few jabs to the nose are all he needs. I certainly hope none of us are squared off in the ring with a boxer, testing our aikido.

This brings to mind another question that I intend to post in another thread, I hope you all will offer your opinions.
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Old 09-05-2000, 04:55 PM   #13
Tim Haffner
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Triangle Kote during the retraction

Another option, that requires impeccable timing (like all techniques!) is to irimi directly to the side of the incoming jab and deflect with the lead hand. Maintain the contact as the jab begins to retract and step in with the rear foot. At the same time apply Kotegaeshi with the rear hand in a tight circle against the fist. The rear foot should be directed into the corner of the jabbing shoulder. (kind of like a second irimi for a sumi-otoshi, with the kotegaeshi. I've seen Pat Hendricks Sensei do this at a seminar with positive effect.

Tim Haffner
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"All energy flows at the whims of the Great Magnet. What a fool I was to defy Him." Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
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Old 09-09-2000, 12:08 AM   #14
chezmike
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Perhaps this is a little naive on my part, but it seems that Tenkan, opening the door to let the jab continue on it's way, is better harmony with the uke "boxer" than taking the punch or blocking. Physics is for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction, thus blocking a 100% punch with a 100% block is against physics. Although I am not a boxer, I believe that the jab and attack must still follow a line forward. Tenkan steps off the line and places you in the only position Uke cannot reach: Parallel or "Heiko" and facing the same way hip to hip with Uke, hence 100 % punch is met with 0% resistance. Obviously, there is more to it, but perhaps simpler things prevail best when nage is "surprised".
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Old 09-09-2000, 01:47 AM   #15
Aiki1
 
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Quote:
chezmike wrote:
Perhaps this is a little naive on my part, but it seems that Tenkan, opening the door to let the jab continue on it's way, is better harmony with the uke "boxer" than taking the punch or blocking. Physics is for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction, thus blocking a 100% punch with a 100% block is against physics. Although I am not a boxer, I believe that the jab and attack must still follow a line forward. Tenkan steps off the line and places you in the only position Uke cannot reach: Parallel or "Heiko" and facing the same way hip to hip with Uke, hence 100 % punch is met with 0% resistance. Obviously, there is more to it, but perhaps simpler things prevail best when nage is "surprised".
I don't advocate blocking or taking a punch. That being said, it would be great if one could do a nice tenkan and be in the perfect position. This will work in certain situations. In facing an experienced boxer, however, this is not always so easy because they are not always giving you the nice follow-through-committed attack. An inexperienced Aikido practitioner will try a nice tenkan and more often than not get hit with the other hand pretty quickly. There certainly are ways of dealing with this, but it isn't as easy as the theory itself.

Larry Novick
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Old 09-09-2000, 02:58 AM   #16
leefr
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Smile

Hi, this is my first post on this site, and I've been watching the threads here with interest. In reference to a boxer's jab, I read an interesting story written by Shioda Gozo sensei and I think it gives some good insight by someone who could truly back up what he said. I'm writing it from memory, so what I say here won't be verbatim.
Anyway, it seems shortly after WWII, Shioda sensei was doing aikido demonstrations at American military camps. At one such demonstration, which he was doing with a kohai, a big American GI challenged them, taking up a boxer's stance. The GI took on the kohai first, and KOed him with a single right hook. Of course, the crowd of watching soldiers laughed their butts off.
Then it was Shioda sensei's turn, but as the boxer delivered a fast jab with his left, Shioda leapt in at that moment and delivered shihonage to the right arm of the boxer, amazing everyone watching. The boxer got up, rubbing his sore elbow and asked much more respectfully why he had ignored the left jab. Shioda sensei said he answered that he perceived the jab to be a feint, and that the true intent of the boxer was with the right hand, so he went straight for it. Since the boxer was not expecting such a move, he was taken off guard.
Shioda sensei elaborated further in his book, going on to explain that the reason he could do this was because aikido was not competition-oriented. If he had thought in terms of countering or handling such and such an attack with such and such a move, his movement would have been blocked. His kohai, not realising this, and faced with an unknown combat art, lost his ability to cope naturally with the situation and got hit smack with the follow up punch. Making excuses by saying he was not familiar with boxing was not acceptable, since that would mean he would have to learn every martial art in the world to cope. The essence was to incorporate the opponent's movement into his own, and perceive his intention at its beginning. Waiting would only ensure his defeat.
Of course, it would take all of us a good deal more training to get to where Shioda sensei is talking about, but I thought it could be relevant to where we should really be heading.
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Old 09-09-2000, 10:57 AM   #17
ze'ev erlich
 
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Do symbol

for all of those who compare aikido to other martial arts, and ask if aikido is useful or if aikido is practical...

the purpose of the aikidoka is to win harmony
body and mind
with the surroundings
with the universe

when you achieve it you have gained he most important victory.

who will fight you then?


this is what i try to keep in mind whenever i can.

masakatsu agatsu

Ze'ev from Masatake Dojo Rehovot
www.aikikai.org.il
Israeli Aikido Organiziation (Aikikai)

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Old 09-09-2000, 11:05 AM   #18
ze'ev erlich
 
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Cool

if you chose aikido as a tool for gaining quickly the ability to cope with street fights, you have done the worst step.

aikido's self defense amazing abilities can not be ignored but it has something much higher for you.

learn Krav Maga or any other real situation fighing method.

keep in mind the essense of the sentense
masakatsu agatsu

the purpose of the aikidoka is to win harmony
body and mind
with the surroundings
with the universe

when you achieve it you have gained he most important victory.

who will fight you then?


this is what i try to keep in mind whenever i can.

masakatsu agatsu


yours

Ze'ev

Ze'ev from Masatake Dojo Rehovot
www.aikikai.org.il
Israeli Aikido Organiziation (Aikikai)

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