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  #26  
Old 12-10-2009, 06:32 PM
Peter A Goldsbury AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
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Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

INTERLUDE:
VII: Hidden in Plain Sight: Tracing the Roots of Ueshiba Morihei's Power
By Ellis Amdur

A Review Essay
Part 1: Chinese Influence and the Beginnings of Daito-ryu

The last...
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Last edited by akiy : 12-15-2009 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:32 AM   #25
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Actually, Tohei's approach did not take Ki out of his techniques. Granted, he did take Ki to another perspective outside of that, but Ki was always a central focal point with all of his martial techniques. At least that was the way it was when I first trained in the early day's of the Ki society back in the 70s.

Greg
Hi Greg,
That's why I had the quotes. I don't think he took the "ki" out of his techniques either. But, in an overall view, he separated "ki" out into another program, or training approach. So, in some essence, he made "ki" separate to stand on its own, without martial validity. Yes, I think the idea is valid in that you have solo training and paired partner training. I just think something went wrong with Tohei's approach or implementation. IMO. I can look at two of Kodo's students and see aiki skills. Sagawa supposedly stated that people were "getting it" once he started to teach it. But, from Tohei's approach ... ???

Again, not saying Tohei didn't have skills or that he was a bad teacher, etc, etc. I'm just saying something doesn't add up somewhere in that environment.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:01 AM   #26
gregstec
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

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Hi Greg,
That's why I had the quotes. I don't think he took the "ki" out of his techniques either. But, in an overall view, he separated "ki" out into another program, or training approach. So, in some essence, he made "ki" separate to stand on its own, without martial validity. Yes, I think the idea is valid in that you have solo training and paired partner training. I just think something went wrong with Tohei's approach or implementation. IMO. I can look at two of Kodo's students and see aiki skills. Sagawa supposedly stated that people were "getting it" once he started to teach it. But, from Tohei's approach ... ???

Again, not saying Tohei didn't have skills or that he was a bad teacher, etc, etc. I'm just saying something doesn't add up somewhere in that environment.
Hi Mark,

I think what happened with Tohei's approach was the same thing that happened to the mainline's approach - some students got it and some did not. Therefore, as time progressed, the skill had become diluted to an extent.

As far as Tohei's aikido skills, he was definitely respected by the honbu students when he was still there. I was at a Saotome seminar where he stated that Tohei had very strong ki skills and that no one was able to put him down. However, I believe he did not take it to the next level, this has become very evident from what I have seen and felt from my time with Dan. But, I also believe, his four principles of mind and body coordination are an excellent way to get your foot in the door in the IP/aiki stuff - of course, further training with the likes of Dan, Mike, or the Ark will take you further.
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Old 12-21-2009, 05:07 PM   #27
Charles Hill
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

"It is the opinion of this reviewer that IHTBF does indeed apply to this power, but also that the power, and the training necessary to acquire it, can be discussed with profit, as at least one dedicated website (not AikiWeb) has shown."

Could Prof. Goldsbury or anyone else in the know tell me the name of the website noted here? I can not figure any reason for the ellipsis, so my apologies if I am missing something here.

Charles
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:34 AM   #28
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
"It is the opinion of this reviewer that IHTBF does indeed apply to this power, but also that the power, and the training necessary to acquire it, can be discussed with profit, as at least one dedicated website (not AikiWeb) has shown."

Could Prof. Goldsbury or anyone else in the know tell me the name of the website noted here? I can not figure any reason for the ellipsis, so my apologies if I am missing something here.

Charles
There are a number of dedicated websites, but the one I had in mind when I wrote the above is Mike Sigman's QiJin forum. I am a member (though not particularly active), but I have learned very much from simply (and carefully) following the discussions. AikiWeb is not a forum dedicated to the study of Chinese internal arts.

PAG

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Old 12-22-2009, 11:47 AM   #29
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

http://rumsoakedfist.org is focused on the Chinese internal martial arts (many other martial arts are discussed too). However, the subject of internal strength and connection is only one topic among a broad range of martial arts (and non-MA) subjects discussed, so the conversation and explication tends to be in individual threads (sometimes scattered among individual threads) rather than the primary topic that the forum is dedicated to. Like Prof. Goldsworthy, I would recommend the QiJin forum (contact Mike Sigman at mikesigman@earthlink.net to sign up) for a look on both the what and the how-to aspects of internal strength. There is a definite perspective at QiJin that is helpful to consider, although there are other sources that are very useful as well.

It is important to look far and wide as well as deep in figuring internal strength out. Aikiweb and before that the e-budo.com forum have had very illuminating (for me) discussions. The CIMAs have useful ideas and training practices, but high levels of internal skill are as rare among Chinese internal martial artists as elsewhere.

That's what is so exciting about the discussions on open forums, in that people who might not otherwise be exposed to discussions about internal principles and training can obtain some idea of what it involves--and find out where to look further.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:33 PM   #30
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Bending the discussion a bit back toward the original topic, one of the things I always look for in an information source is the level of functional "how-to", particularly in regard to internal strength parameters. Many books and websites talk *about* things in a superficial "here's my take on it" way, but rarely do the superficial sources give in-depth discussions of the mechanics.

As someone becomes more skilled they can spot who really knows how to do something and who is just maundering in the general area by dropping buzzwords, guesses, personal interpretations, and so on. One of the interesting things I found, as my own skills progressed (and that's not to say that I'm at any pinnacle) was that even though Kisshomaru Ueshiba was sparse in his descriptions, they're actually pretty accurate and reflect some knowledge of ki skills and how they work. Since he (K. Ueshiba) probably got most of his knowledge from his father, I'd posit that Morihei Ueshiba was teaching some degree of these skills, as opposed to the idea that 'for some reason Ueshiba didn't pass on these skills'. In other words, there's some good information to be had via traditional Aikido sources, despite some current perceptions that all the stuff about I.S. skills was hidden.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:53 PM   #31
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

I've been out of town and am late to the party so belated thanks to the Professor for an in depth treatment of Ellis' book.

I think it is shown in Ellis' book and Mike really has a point when he says above, "One of the interesting things I found, as my own skills progressed... was that even though Kisshomaru Ueshiba was sparse in his descriptions, they're actually pretty accurate and reflect some knowledge of ki skills and how they work."

There are several things that could be highlighted in the above statement, but the first is the strange effect of retrospect when looking at information about these skills and knowledge. "One of the interesting things I found as my own skills progressed..." That is the crux of it. One could have read Kisshomaru's descriptions for any length of time, but until "one's own skills progress" they are meaningless.

I think Gurdjieff told Ouspenski that if he had truly understood what he had written in his own book there would be no need for Gurdjieff to teach him.

On Mike's question about "ki" in the aikikai after Tohei: It has always been my impression since my early days training in the 80s (ie. before the internet when hearsay and oral culture was king) that "ki" curriculum was tainted because of its association with Tohei. My impression was very strong that "ki" was Tohei and so out it went with Tohei no matter its utility or lack thereof.

-Doug Walker
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:22 PM   #32
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

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Doug Walker wrote: View Post
I

On Mike's question about "ki" in the aikikai after Tohei: It has always been my impression since my early days training in the 80s (ie. before the internet when hearsay and oral culture was king) that "ki" curriculum was tainted because of its association with Tohei. My impression was very strong that "ki" was Tohei and so out it went with Tohei no matter its utility or lack thereof.
It is my impression as well. If you look at the books that came out of the Aikikai before the split, all of them had they same view on ki; not just Tohei's books. However after the split, ki was noticeably absent from anything coming out of the Aikikai. Also, during my training in the early days of the Ki Society back in the 70s we were told that there was no ki being taught at the Hombu and that is why Tohei left - of course today, we know that there was more to the reason for the split than just no ki, etc.

Greg
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:46 PM   #33
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

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Doug Walker wrote: View Post
There are several things that could be highlighted in the above statement, but the first is the strange effect of retrospect when looking at information about these skills and knowledge. "One of the interesting things I found as my own skills progressed..." That is the crux of it. One could have read Kisshomaru's descriptions for any length of time, but until "one's own skills progress" they are meaningless.
Reminds me of the old Mark Twain line: "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."
Quote:
On Mike's question about "ki" in the aikikai after Tohei: It has always been my impression since my early days training in the 80s (ie. before the internet when hearsay and oral culture was king) that "ki" curriculum was tainted because of its association with Tohei. My impression was very strong that "ki" was Tohei and so out it went with Tohei no matter its utility or lack thereof.
Well, I can see that as a possibility. However, for some reason Tohei felt like he was showing the uchi deshi new information (which he'd learned outside of Hombu Dojo so therefore it wasn't in Hombu Dojo, right?). So regardless of the stigma of Tohei, there's still something interesting going on that I don't think we see the full picture of at the moment. There are too many factors. K.Ueshiba could have had some level of academic understanding but not much skills, or etc., etc.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:04 PM   #34
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Hello,

Ellis stated:

"Two things: That's what I've been told by Toby Threadgill - AND - Akiyama as well as the founder of Yoshin Koryu, in particular, traveled to Southern China."

I think I need to clarify something here. Takamura sensei told me many things over a whisky, but how many of these things would hold up under academic scrutiny is difficult to say. He was not the most forthcoming when it came to differentiating between those things that were his personal opinions, versus those things passed to him by way of someone closer to the source, like his grandfather Ohbata Shigeta. Frankly, I would prefer we find much more authoritative support for Yoshin ryu's connection to southern China martial traditions than what Takamura sensei told me over drinks in casual conversation.

Akiyama Yoshin ryu and Nakamura Yoshin Koryu present several interesting mysteries. Some budo historians dismiss the stories of a Chinese connection to Yoshin ryu as a modern creation, meant to bolster their reputation. Others historians point out that these stories are actually old, and even the idea of an art as influential as Yoshin ryu being closely connected to a non-Japanese source is rather convincing on its own, especially given the Japanese tendency towards ethnocentrism. Frankly I believe the Yoshin ryu lore surrounding a "Chinese connection" to be accurate but I am certainly no authority on CMA. It will take a serious investigation by many knowledgeable people to better evaluate this possibility.

FWIW, Outside my personal experience in Yoshin ryu, I hold in my possession many of the devices needed to make a more authoritative determination on this topic. I have in my possession a diverse collection of densho from Yoshin ryu and related schools. I recently acquired a very rare one I've never heard mention of before. It is dated Meiwa 2 (1765) and titled Yoshin ryu Seikan (or Shizuma) maki (静間巻). Budo historian Shingo Ohgami believes the title refers to the Yoshin ryu's core teachings. This densho's contents and age could provide unique insight into the Yoshin ryu prior to the influences that occurred during the late Edo period.

I am in the process of producing a DVD of TSYR's omote Nairiki no Gyo (not the ura or gokui). Although this DVD is intended for the TSYR membership, I could be persuaded to make it available to uniquely knowledgeable individuals interested in evaluating any similarities that might exist between the TSYR Nairiki no Gyo and IT training methods in CMA.

Regards,

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 12-22-2009 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 12-23-2009, 08:02 AM   #35
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Wow. Toby, even without the gokui, that would be quite a boon in the right hands! I hope you find someone worthy.

Best,
Ron

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Old 12-23-2009, 03:58 PM   #36
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Hi,

Do these concepts sound familiar to anyone in CMA? They are only a few of the doka associated with Akiyama Yoshin ryu.

"With roots reaching into the earth and leaves reaching for heaven, the purple willow sways in harmony with the forces of nature, flexible but strong"

"The flow of ki is in and out, up and down, left and right, inward and outward. In these eight planes divine movement manifests itself.

"The purple willow like the harmony of nature is never still, Even in apparent stillness is movement.

"The purple willow gathers great power by yielding to the forces of nature."

_______

FYI....The character for yo ( 楊 ) in Yoshin ryu refers to a type of upright branching willow tree commonly found along the Yangtse river (楊子汢)in southern China. Many people mistakenly assume yo refers to the ryu/yanagi character(柳)that instead refers to the the weeping willow tree. This is another subtle hint of Yoshin ryu's origins in China.

Toby Threadgill
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Old 12-23-2009, 04:56 PM   #37
Mike Sigman
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Hi,

Do these concepts sound familiar to anyone in CMA? They are only a few of the doka associated with Akiyama Yoshin ryu.

"With roots reaching into the earth and leaves reaching for heaven, the purple willow sways in harmony with the forces of nature, flexible but strong"

"The flow of ki is in and out, up and down, left and right, inward and outward. In these eight planes divine movement manifests itself.

"The purple willow like the harmony of nature is never still, Even in apparent stillness is movement.

"The purple willow gathers great power by yielding to the forces of nature."

_______

FYI....The character for yo ( 楊 ) in Yoshin ryu refers to a type of upright branching willow tree commonly found along the Yangtse river (楊子汢)in southern China. Many people mistakenly assume yo refers to the ryu/yanagi character(柳)that instead refers to the the weeping willow tree. This is another subtle hint of Yoshin ryu's origins in China.

Toby Threadgill
Hi Toby:

I'm assuming the "Purple Willow" is a style-specific reference to a member/person/man of that sect, in which case the purple-willow quotes would be the usual general Chinese quotes from cosmology about using the qi/forces of Heaven and Earth, harmony with the forces of nature (use the forces; no resistance), and movement within stillness (be interested to compare notes on that one, but don't want to write an exposition).

The comment about ki seems to be one of a number of legitimate variations of front-back (in and out), up-down, sides, and contract/expand.

I.e., I don't see anything other than the usual vague, legitimizing, statements that are pretty much the same in many martial arts. They're a sort of "we know the secrets, too" commentary that is ubiquitous in Asian martial arts.

I tend to like to separate the general ki-skills discussion into a jin/kokyu and qi/ki/breath/fascia dichotomy (for ease of discussion only), but the above quotes cover both of those.

Incidentally, in Ueshiba M.'s writings, he also refers to a lot of these general ki-skills comments from the classical Chinese, but he includes a reference to the Eight Gates (although he appears to have inverted two of them from the original saying). I don't have the book in front of me (donated it to a dojo in need), but the Eight Gates comment cleaned of various embellishments goes roughly:

Hard - Soft
Powerful - Relaxed
Motion - Stillness
Contraction - Extension

I'd be curious if your style has a reference to those eight because I was a little surprised to see them in Ueshiba's writings (it's part of what clued me that Ueshiba may have known more stuff than we can see in the occasional film).

BTW, seeing you post reminds me... I'll probably go to Denver in January during the week that ends on the 23rd. If you've got any time we can try once again to meet up. With my luck that'll also be the week of the most vicious snowstorm seen in Colorado in 40 years, but that's the only thing that will stop the trip probably.

Best.

Mike
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Old 12-23-2009, 05:52 PM   #38
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

re: The purple willow like the harmony of nature is never still, Even in apparent stillness is movement.

The "purple" in this context is interesting - if there is no other explanation for it, it might be a reference to the circle that surrounds Polaris, the pole star. The circle is called the "Palace of the Purple Tenuity" in Chinese, and is named after the central part of the imperial palace where the Emperor himself resides. The image of polaris and the circumpolar stars is an important one that is often associated with "stillness within movement" in Chinese writings (and, later, I'm assuming, in Japanese writings) because it seems not to move while everything else moves around it. The image is of the Emperor - the central pivot of the kingdom who sits in the center in stillness. The image of a central pivot of stillness around which/within which everything moves is a pretty standard idea.

Also, given the connection between Polaris and Marishiten, and the importance of Marishiten to many koryu, it's an avenue worth exploring. Even if it is just an off-the-cuff theory. Lots of other possibilities, though, I'm pretty sure.

Josh
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Old 12-23-2009, 05:53 PM   #39
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Hi Mike & Josh,

The purple willow reference is pretty mundane..LOL

The purple willow is a reference to a specific variety of willow tree with upright branches and purple buds. The Nakamura Yoshin Koryu uses a very similar but different "yo" character that symbolizes raising or upright in reference to the same tree; one with upright or rising branches.

I figured the other stuff in the doka was fairly ubiquitous which Mike simply confirmed......

As for the eight planes/gates, yes. All those you mentioned are related in a similar but also multidimensional fashion. The eight planes also represent the four seasons and four elements, eight mental / emotional states, as well as other propriety spiritual teachings from Minzoku Shinto.

Mike, I look forward to a visit but my January is pretty unsettled right now as I need to make two trips out of state. Right now I don't know which weeks I'll be in Colorado. I'll let you know when I know.

Toby

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 12-23-2009 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:04 PM   #40
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Hi,

Do these concepts sound familiar to anyone in CMA? They are only a few of the doka associated with Akiyama Yoshin ryu.

"With roots reaching into the earth and leaves reaching for heaven, the purple willow sways in harmony with the forces of nature, flexible but strong"

"The flow of ki is in and out, up and down, left and right, inward and outward. In these eight planes divine movement manifests itself.

"The purple willow like the harmony of nature is never still, Even in apparent stillness is movement.

"The purple willow gathers great power by yielding to the forces of nature."

_______

FYI....The character for yo ( 楊 ) in Yoshin ryu refers to a type of upright branching willow tree commonly found along the Yangtse river (楊子汢)in southern China. Many people mistakenly assume yo refers to the ryu/yanagi character(柳)that instead refers to the the weeping willow tree. This is another subtle hint of Yoshin ryu's origins in China.

Toby Threadgill
That is an interesting allusion. Some related background information:

The Chinese character 楊 is also used to refer to poplars.

The Yangtze River is often viewed as the traditional "boundary" between northern and southern China.

The (Chinese) purple willow, Salix sinopurpurea, is common along the Yangtze as well as other rivers in Gansu, Hebei, Henan, Hubei, Shaanxi and Shanxi provinces.

The weeping willow, Salix babylonica, used to be thought to have originated in Sumeria (hence the name), but now is traced back to China.

Daoist sects in China, often but not always accurately associated with Chinese martial arts, would confer names with rich natural allusions like "Purple Mist" (Ziyan) on members, and such names were also adopted by poets and scholars.

*****************************************************************

Like Mike S. suggested above, "Purple Willow" could thus have been a reference to a specific person. But the physical characteristics of willow's resilience--something that Ellis calls out in HIPS when he discusses how a willow branch yields then springs back under a load of snow--seem to relate more directly to the references in the doka you quote about the purple willow "moving in harmony with the forces of nature," "flexible but strong," "gathering great power by yielding to the forces of nature" and, most interesting to me, "like the harmony of nature is never still/Even in apparent stillness is movement."

That last reference seems to key in on a primary characteristic of "internal" Chinese martial arts, the ability to neutralize and/or generate great power with little externally overt movement. The movement is internal, inside. It ties in to previous discussions about fascia, breathing and qi--albeit (as noted before) in a very general way, not in any concrete "how-to" sense.

So perhaps the doka is/are providing an idea of the overall quality to be aimed for through training the "how-to" specifics of the internal exercises of the various Yoshin ryu.

Just some random mental droppings.
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Old 01-02-2010, 05:33 AM   #41
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
BTW -
I just read Shiba Goro's REMEMBERING AIZU: The Testament of Shiba Goro, a memoir of Aizu after the defeat in the Boshin war. It is such a sad story, including an ethnic cleansing for several years, where many were moved to the north of Japan to an utterly desolate area where survival was almost impossible - many starved. Many of the men spent time in prison camps before being released. I wonder what happened to the Takeda family during that period. Is it possible that Takeda Sokaku was either separated from his family - all or in part - for a few years after the Boshin war, or if the whole family spent some years scrabbling among the rocks of that desolate landscape trying to survive. Who else died in his life during this period?

Ellis
Hello Ellis,

Akemashite omedetto gozaimasu. Kotoshi mo yoroshiku onegai shimasu.

I have read Shiba's memoir, in Japanese and English. In fact, as you will see from TIE 17, I think it makes an excellent point of comparison with Tokimune's memoirs of his father. The English translation has an excellent introduction by Teruko Craig, whose husband Albert, incidentally, wrote a definitive study of the Choshu han during the Meiji Restoration. It is unfortunate that Mr Craig stopped with the downfall of the Shogunate and did not tell the story--from the Choshu side--of the Boshin War and the campaigns in the northeast.

Tokimune records in Part 2 of his biography of Sokaku that Saigo Tanomo escaped from Aizu castle before it fell, in order to contact the army outside the castle. He was accompanied by Sokichi Takeda, who stayed in Sendai when he heard that Aizu castle had fallen. Tokimune mentions that Saigo travelled to Hakodate and took part in the Battle of Goryokaku with Kamajiro Enomoto. This Enomoto (if it is the same man) is also known as Takeaki and surrendered Goryokaku to government forces on 27 June 1869. Enomoto was imprisoned, but pardoned in 1872. Saigo surrendered with Enomoto, but I am not sure what happened to him immediately afterwards.

Since Tokimune records that Sokatsu, Sokaku's elder brother, also assisted his father during the siege of Aizu castle, but had clearly returned to Aizubange-cho before his death in 1876. As had Sokichi, according to Tokimune's memoirs (Part 5). I think the reason why the Shiba volume is important is that it shows the big difference between high-ranking samurai, like the Shibas, and those of much lesser rank, like the Takedas, who were not important enough to be sent into exile.

When examining Tokimune's memoirs, I think it is very important to have a good grasp of the entire Boshin Civil War, which also entails a knowledge of the geography of northeastern Japan.

Best wishes,

PAG

PS. Anyway, I am still working on TIE 17 (which I am afraid will not be ready in time to meet Jun's deadline for January) and am waiting for the Japanese text of Aizu Han Kyoiku Sho, used by Kono Yoshinori in his Aiki News article on Kanenori Dengoro Kurokochi.

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 01-02-2010 at 05:42 AM.

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Old 01-03-2010, 04:39 AM   #42
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Ellis,

As a footnote to my previous post, I have discovered that Saigo Tanomo was indeed imprisoned in Hokkaido after the surrender of Enomoto's forces at Goryokaku in 1869. After his release, the Tsutsukotowake Shrine in Shirakawa gun, was the first shrine (of a number of shrines) where he was employed. This is where Takeda Sokaku became his deshi in September 1876.

Best,

PAG

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Old 01-03-2010, 08:38 AM   #43
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Thanks Peter -

It would be intriguing to contact/visit the various shrines where he was employed - I wonder what records remain.

Best
Ellis

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Old 01-05-2010, 07:19 AM   #44
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Thanks Peter -

It would be intriguing to contact/visit the various shrines where he was employed - I wonder what records remain.

Best
Ellis
Hello Ellis,

Well, I have looked at the website of Aizu-Wakamatsu, for example, and the city is clearly interested in its history. So, I suspect that a disinterested researcher who could handle the Japanese would be able to gain access to families with histories.

Similarly with Tanabe in 2008. I met quite a number of people, unconnected with the Aikikai, whose older relatives knew and remembered O Sensei.

Yet another retirement project...

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 01-08-2010, 03:32 AM   #45
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Thanks Peter -

It would be intriguing to contact/visit the various shrines where he was employed - I wonder what records remain.

Best
Ellis
I'm pretty sure Hoshina served at the Kotoni Shrine in Sapporo. My Sensei is friends with the current priest and we have a honno embu there each year. I'll ask about it.
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Old 01-09-2010, 06:33 PM   #46
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Hello Oisin,

Happy New Year!.

Please give my best wishes to Iida Sensei. I suspect he might be an interesting person to talk to about Takeda Sokaku. Actually, I have just discovered that a colleague of mine comes from Aizu-Wakamatsu and so I have a contact, should I go to visit when the weather improves. It is quite a long way from Hiroshima and so I will have to do things properly and include Hokkaido as well.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-13-2010, 07:48 PM   #47
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

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Hello Oisin,

Happy New Year!.

Please give my best wishes to Iida Sensei. I suspect he might be an interesting person to talk to about Takeda Sokaku. Actually, I have just discovered that a colleague of mine comes from Aizu-Wakamatsu and so I have a contact, should I go to visit when the weather improves. It is quite a long way from Hiroshima and so I will have to do things properly and include Hokkaido as well.

Best wishes,
Akemashite omedeto gozaimasu!

I passed on your regards to Sensei last night at practice. He would have like to talk to you a little more last time you met but you were very busy.

Summer is beautiful up here. We're having a little embu and seminar in May. I'm sure he'd love to see you. I'm wary of getting too much into historical discussions involving documents as when the obscure terminology starts I begin to make small whimpering noises

I'll try to talk a little more to the current shrine priest, but you might make a better fist of it.

Regards,

Oisin

Last edited by oisin bourke : 01-13-2010 at 07:50 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:39 AM   #48
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 16

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Akemashite omedeto gozaimasu!

I passed on your regards to Sensei last night at practice. He would have like to talk to you a little more last time you met but you were very busy.

Summer is beautiful up here. We're having a little embu and seminar in May. I'm sure he'd love to see you. I'm wary of getting too much into historical discussions involving documents as when the obscure terminology starts I begin to make small whimpering noises

I'll try to talk a little more to the current shrine priest, but you might make a better fist of it.

Regards,

Oisin
Hello Oisin,

Kochira koso.

Please send me the dates and details of your event in May and if it is possible (given my teaching commitments), I may well be able to hop on a plane to Sapporo. There is a direct flight from Hiroshima (though it is operated by JAL, which might not be operational by next May). There is a wonderful train, the Twilight Express, which connects Osaka and Sapporo, via the Japan Sea coast. I would like to take it once in this lifetime, but the journey will probably be too leisurely to manage in one weekend. Anyway, we will see.

I am now writing TIE 17, in which Takeda Sokaku figures much more prominently than he did in TIE 16, where he appeared largely as an afterthought (I think I added some discussion there, in order to allay the suspicions of Ellis and others that my review was going to be longer than the book itself).

The main source for Takeda Sokaku's activities are the essays written by Takeda Tokimune and the interviews with his students, all published by Stan Pranin. Sagawa's Tomeina Chikara also needs to be considered. I have searched some of the Japanese sources on which Ellis bases much of his second chapter, but the only person who figures with any prominence is Takeda's maternal grandfather, Kurokochi Dengoro, who is as much of an enigma as Takeda was himself.

On the other hand, the Boshin Civil War was clearly a very exciting time and the issue for Ellis--and for me as the reviewer of his book, is the extent to which this civil war conditioned or influenced Takeda's attitude to his son and students. In this respect Ellis's discussion breaks new ground.

Best wishes,

PAG

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