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Old 01-08-2010, 09:17 AM   #26
jlb7289
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Re: What is what with Scott Sonnon's material?

I use kettlebells and bodyweight exercises, but I think it's probably a bad idea to try to use them to build frame or internal strength. Doing those (kb's and pushups) correctly (in the traditional manner) isn't consistent with internal strength and the levels of resistance would probably engage local muscle too much.

I use kettlebells and calisthenics to build overall strength for health and fitness, but I consider it completely distinct from my internal strength work. I'm not doing them to build internal strength and don't expect that work to have any impact (except this one...the stronger my legs are the more ultimate power I can generate, internal or external).

I know the arguments that you must not do any weightlifting and etc. if you want to develop internal strength, but I'm skeptical. Nothing from what I know of motor control and learning or skill development and specificity provides a rationale for that...building internal strength is very difficult and requires work every day, an active approach to re-training the body. I don't see how a couple or three days per week of specific strengthening of local muscles makes that effort much more difficult than it already is. That would almost suggest that one's muscles should be weak in order to build internal strength. Ummmm, I don't buy that. It's, imo, the habitual ways we tend to move our bodies that is the impediment, much more than specific, limited things we do to strengthen the limbs and core.

I am, in a pretty limited way, using a weightvest with some aunkai, taiji, and xingyi drills, I've chosen a resistance (5 to 10 lbs.) that, since it's distributed over my torso, doesn't load up my shoulders or impinge my breath as I work. I anticipate very gradually adding resistance but pretty closely monitoring things so I don't get off track. I think that approach, loading an additional resistance over the body, may be more productive than trying to adapt kettlebell drills.

Joseph
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:54 AM   #27
ChrisMoses
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Re: What is what with Scott Sonnon's material?

Quote:
Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
I am, in a pretty limited way, using a weightvest with some aunkai, taiji, and xingyi drills, I've chosen a resistance (5 to 10 lbs.) that, since it's distributed over my torso, doesn't load up my shoulders or impinge my breath as I work. I anticipate very gradually adding resistance but pretty closely monitoring things so I don't get off track. I think that approach, loading an additional resistance over the body, may be more productive than trying to adapt kettlebell drills.

Joseph
Hey Joseph, hope you're well.

I'll just throw this out there. People weigh a LOT more than even a heavy KB (and I'm a wuss, so I use a light one). If I can't eventually learn to use IP/frame to move a 25-35lb weight around, can I ever really expect to be able to use the same mechanics in a live resistant environment with a partner opponent? Will I be trapped in the realm of parlor tricks in the dojo? (not saying that this is where you are, please don't take this personally, this is really just something for folks to think about). I know when I'm doing push-out, I'm facing a lot more force of resistance from folks like Neil, Jeremy, John and Steve than 35lbs. Does frame/internal power only work on people or is it 'real' power?

Discuss..

Chris Moses
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:34 AM   #28
JangChoe
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Re: What is what with Scott Sonnon's material?

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Hey Joseph, hope you're well.

I'll just throw this out there. People weigh a LOT more than even a heavy KB (and I'm a wuss, so I use a light one). If I can't eventually learn to use IP/frame to move a 25-35lb weight around, can I ever really expect to be able to use the same mechanics in a live resistant environment with a partner opponent? Will I be trapped in the realm of parlor tricks in the dojo? (not saying that this is where you are, please don't take this personally, this is really just something for folks to think about). I know when I'm doing push-out, I'm facing a lot more force of resistance from folks like Neil, Jeremy, John and Steve than 35lbs. Does frame/internal power only work on people or is it 'real' power?

Discuss..
Ark told me we shouldn't train weights. He also said his stuff will only work on humans and not on inanimate objects. Maybe it's because with IS, you're messing with people's balance or crushing their weak structure. I guess IS makes humans easier to handle compared to throwing around dead weight.

I also heard stories of a decent taiji teacher struggling with his heavy luggage in the airport, but during the seminars, he throws around ppl twice their size.

OTOH, there's a legendary story of Feng Zhiqiang who supposedly saved a huge machinery that weighed a couple hundred pounds from falling.

Also, I would assume IS training should get you physically stronger as a side effect. And it should since it does work the connective tissues and certain muscles.

Furthermore, even though Ark implied that his stuff won't work on inanimate objects, he still demonstrated shiko with Jeremy Hulley on his back. That showed his frame can handle a (very) heavy load as Jeremy. I don't see why Ark wouldn't be able to do that with a heavy backpack on his back.
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Old 01-08-2010, 04:19 PM   #29
ChrisMoses
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Re: What is what with Scott Sonnon's material?

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Jang Choe wrote: View Post
Furthermore, even though Ark implied that his stuff won't work on inanimate objects, he still demonstrated shiko with Jeremy Hulley on his back. That showed his frame can handle a (very) heavy load as Jeremy. I don't see why Ark wouldn't be able to do that with a heavy backpack on his back.
Are you calling Jeremy a big dumb object?

Just kidding...

And there's always the heavy bag. I know Neil's talked about some of his CMA acquaintances being able to walk up to a heavy bag and basically fold them in half with almost no movement. I could certainly see how training with weights too early could be a bad idea, but it is kind of an interesting point. Dan or Rob, you following this? Any opinion?

Chris Moses
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:59 PM   #30
Upyu
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Re: What is what with Scott Sonnon's material?

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Are you calling Jeremy a big dumb object?

Just kidding...

And there's always the heavy bag. I know Neil's talked about some of his CMA acquaintances being able to walk up to a heavy bag and basically fold them in half with almost no movement. I could certainly see how training with weights too early could be a bad idea, but it is kind of an interesting point. Dan or Rob, you following this? Any opinion?
I'm against it, especially for the first couple of years. (This is assuming you're all for training this stuff in a goody-two-shoe fashion )
I think the vast majority of people have had varying degrees of experience with lifting weights (whether improper or not is another matter). But since the requirements needed to hold and manipulate a weight are so contrary to the habits generally incurred by people when lifting weights, I think, its detrimental to use them as previous habits generally take over, slowing down progress. Hell I thought I wasn't using shoulder, and it turned out I was wrong.

FWIW Ark claims he's never really used weights to further his training. (He's also quick to point out that he doesn't say that "weight lifting is bad" either, just that you need to think about "how" you're doing it, which is really just a condensed version of what I said above).
Using long pole weapons, etc generally take the place of using weights in his curriculum, and if you know what you're doing, will cause plenty of stress on the body, which has its own can of worms that you have to fight (are you engaging the shoulders yatta yatta yatta).

Btw, the whole point is to increase the load that your "frame"/"conditioning" can handle. The very fact that Ark can put Jeremy on his back and do Shiko using winding mechanics (given his size and weight) says a lot about how much stress his body can take...and should be a hint towards what people should be working towards
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Old 01-09-2010, 05:56 AM   #31
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What is what with Scott Sonnon's material?

lol...I was there when Ark put Jeremy on his back. Not only that, he could move around with him on his back!....yea I remember that distinctly!

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Old 01-09-2010, 09:29 AM   #32
JangChoe
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Re: What is what with Scott Sonnon's material?

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Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
I use kettlebells and bodyweight exercises, but I think it's probably a bad idea to try to use them to build frame or internal strength. Doing those (kb's and pushups) correctly (in the traditional manner) isn't consistent with internal strength and the levels of resistance would probably engage local muscle too much.

I use kettlebells and calisthenics to build overall strength for health and fitness, but I consider it completely distinct from my internal strength work. I'm not doing them to build internal strength and don't expect that work to have any impact (except this one...the stronger my legs are the more ultimate power I can generate, internal or external).

I know the arguments that you must not do any weightlifting and etc. if you want to develop internal strength, but I'm skeptical. Nothing from what I know of motor control and learning or skill development and specificity provides a rationale for that...building internal strength is very difficult and requires work every day, an active approach to re-training the body. I don't see how a couple or three days per week of specific strengthening of local muscles makes that effort much more difficult than it already is. That would almost suggest that one's muscles should be weak in order to build internal strength. Ummmm, I don't buy that. It's, imo, the habitual ways we tend to move our bodies that is the impediment, much more than specific, limited things we do to strengthen the limbs and core.
Hey Joseph, I went through this for a while, and I came to the realize that I do have to choose one or the other. One reason is because of time constraints. We're all busy people and we really don't have time to train both methods at the same time. Also, anecdotally, my IS skills finally were improving (I'm not a m4asta though) when I stopped lifting weights. Although it's probably not causative since it can be due to the fact that I started to focus on neijia practice a lot more and doing it more frequently. Who knows?

But anyway, demanding IS practice should improve your overall fitness. OTOH, demanding athletic stuff doesn't improve IS at all (maybe a miniscule bit). So might as well do IS stuff all the time. Besides, all neijia gurus agree about this, so why go against them?
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Old 01-09-2010, 11:47 AM   #33
jlb7289
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Re: What is what with Scott Sonnon's material?

Why go against them? Because they may be wrong. And notice what you've written, that you stopped because of time constraints. That isn't at ALL the same thing as arguing that the two are actively incompatible.

Coaches used to say that weightlifting was terrible for athletes in all kinds of sports. Weight training would harm your flexibility---wrong, if anything, weight training enhances flexibility. Weight training would slow you down--wrong, it doesn't slow you down. It protects from injury and can enhance your athletic performance, generally (I'm not talking about internal arts). The muscle-bound notion was, and is, a myth.

And now, back to specificity. One of the main findings of research on motor control and learning is that there is very little evidence for one skill actively interfering with another. This is so much the case that getting twice as strong in the squat doesn't translate into being able to jump twice at high, and those are two skills that share a lot in common (at least at the start).

So you're telling me that building local strength with a few exercises done at most 3 hours a week radically interferes with development of internal strength over and above the typical difficulty?

I don't think weight training HELPS internal strength (except perhaps for strengthening the legs, the prime movers), but I still don't buy that it hurts, except in the sense that doing ANYTHING else when you could be training internal strength is bad. OK, I buy that. But beyond that? How?

Joseph
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Old 01-09-2010, 11:55 AM   #34
JW
 
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Re: What is what with Scott Sonnon's material?

I'm no authority but:

Quote:
Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
Nothing from what I know of motor control and learning or skill development and specificity provides a rationale for that...
Wait, what about classic hebbian plasticity? Every time you make a movement with normal mechanics you are maintaining certain synapses that you don't want. This could be in brain, spinal cord, and at the neuro-muscular junction. (in theory.) You are also maintaining the weak state of certain synapses that you may need to strengthen for internal-type movement.

In other words, every movement is a chance to do the uphill battle of reprogramming, or if you use normal mechanics, it is a chance to make that hill taller and steeper. (or at least maintain the steepness of the hill)

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Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
That would almost suggest that one's muscles should be weak in order to build internal strength. Ummmm, I don't buy that.
Well, I don't totally buy that muscles "should" be weak either. (though it may help sometimes) But it is fun to point out that I have heard of that method-- that weakening the normal strength can help. ("ki ga nai" solved by "chikara ga nai" on these very forums ... also is "invest in loss" meant to apply to this?) And it makes sense to some degree. Now, did anyone with proven skills make that argument? That I don't know.
--JW
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:01 PM   #35
JW
 
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Re: What is what with Scott Sonnon's material?

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Joseph Brown wrote: View Post

And now, back to specificity. One of the main findings of research on motor control and learning is that there is very little evidence for one skill actively interfering with another. This is so much the case that getting twice as strong in the squat doesn't translate into being able to jump twice at high, and those are two skills that share a lot in common (at least at the start).
OK one more thing to add since your post counters mine. I am talking about totally changing the coordination of which muscles and which structures manage load across the whole body-- so 2 independent strategies of movement. That's what I mean by the synaptic weights across the whole movement control system needing to be changed. As opposed to the interaction of 2 kinds of exercise (squats vs jumping) that utilize the same control strategy.

So within one movement type-regime, there may be little learning type interactions.. but across the types of regimes, there is a conflicting set of ideal synaptic weights, and we want to switch from one to the other.

Nothing ridiculous I think. Though it is still probably without any data to support it.
--JW
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