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Old 09-17-2009, 06:57 AM   #76
Stormcrow34
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Nice post on the jab, Kevin.

I also think it's a great idea to take up some form of striking where you actually make some contact, because nothing prepares you for getting hit, like getting hit! And if we learn to occasionally eat a jab without panic setting in, we can focus on more important issues like getting inside, setting up a throw, etc. Perhaps training our body to absorb a jab is easier and more likely than devising some fancy defense against a lightning fast, uncommitted punch?

I think it was Mike Tyson who said it best when being interviewed about his opponents plan to defeat Iron Mike: "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face".

Fortunately, there aren't too many people out there that hit like Mike Tyson.

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 09-17-2009 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:15 PM   #77
Ben Tang
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Hi Reuben,
Thanks for the insight.
I would like to share my personal thoughts..

Aikido is not meant to be compared to other forms of martial art used for self defense. Many has tried to pit Aikido against other MMA fighting i.e. KDTA, CMD, Karate..

The essence of fighting is totally different

The most basic rule of Aikido is establishing the threat and moving away instead of receiving punches /kicks; hence the irimi tenkan and kaiten movement. If you compare this with other "receiving" martial art ..it will involve some blocking; be it kickboxing, CMD, KDTA, karate etc..

Aikido trains someone to avoid conflict. Thats the philosophy built into it ..the way of harmony..

If a student of Aikido expects to be a street fighter upon completing their dan or higher ranks I think he is looking in the wrong place to start with.

katate tori, shomen and yokomen technique were all simulated attacks of the sword..
the hand as explained before is an extension of the sword hence vice versa

No doubt, no one will rush at you with a samurai sword in this century but we have to understand that Aikido was created by Osensei based on aikijiujitsu which is a samurai art widely used when everyone was wielding sword.

They dont jab or kick, they cut !! SO the inherent danger was the sword and not the arms or legs.. so aikijiujitsu protects life...

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Old 09-18-2009, 09:10 AM   #78
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Ben Tang wrote:

Quote:
The most basic rule of Aikido is establishing the threat and moving away instead of receiving punches /kicks; hence the irimi tenkan and kaiten movement
Irimi is not moving away, but entering. tenkan is a turn, and kaiten well, not good and really defining it, but it also involves entering and turning as well. The whole prinicple is not so much moving away or avoidance but about entering at the right vector/angle and spiraling in and turning at a decreasing radius.

Ben wrote:

Quote:
Aikido trains someone to avoid conflict. Thats the philosophy built into it ..the way of harmony..
Disagree here as well. Avoidance is not what it is about, that does not authentically resolve conflict. In fact, we don't need a martial practice at all to teach avoidance. No, The way of harmony is learning to embrace it, and change it. Facing it and dealing with it in a skillful manner.

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Old 09-18-2009, 12:24 PM   #79
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Facing it and dealing with it in a skillful manner.
Yeah.
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:40 PM   #80
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

FWIW, I have the same reaction as Kevin.

I recognize not everyone trains in the same fashion, but it would not accurately describe my practice to say I have been taught to always "establish[] the threat and mov[e] away [from it] instead of receiving."

Preempting the attack, whether called "sensen no sen" or (if you're Osensei) something else or more, conceptually seems to involve a higher order of "harmonizing" than reacting to an attack and avoiding it.

YMMV

cdh
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:40 PM   #81
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Mr. Yap

Thanks for the insight into Aikido as it applies to the world of MMA and real life situations. I wondered how it was viewed by fighters like yourself.
I too have found in Aikido training the lack of realistic "street" fighting for self-defence and have come across guest instuctors (no disrespect towards Sensei's intended) who bring their own assistants that offer no resistance and assist the instructor in their techniques without resisting or attacking in an unpredictable manner, and I found myself wondering about real-life situations.
I have a background of some hard style martial arts (just dabbled and by no means am I an expert or proficient) and I've been in real fight situations as a younger man and it seems to me that it all comes down to WHY one is training in Aikido.
If one is training to be an aggressor than he's there for the wrong reasons. This is more than opinion as O' Sensei said himself not to casually teach Aikido techniques to anyone in case it is used by thugs.
I understand that you're talking about strikes or the lack thereof in Aikido and I agree...but if I could go back in time and learn JUST Aikido, no other martial arts, then I think I would apply the fluidity and adaptiveness of Aikido as O'Sensei intended and my mind would not be occupied by thoughts of "what if" and "should I". I would react with pure Aikido and keep myself AND my opponent unharmed.
As it is I am a beginner and my cup still has some emptying to be done. If I were confronted at this stage I would no doubt strike out first because I know my capabilities: on the other hand, the reason I started Aikido was to be the civil, empathetic person that I truly am, devoid of ego and strive to be the the loving person that O'Sensei envisioned people of peace loving character to be. I have no desire to knock teeth out...it's reprehensible to me. Once again am I fighting for pride or protection? If there's a child involved than I guess anything goes.
Now I know you're a MMA guy so you're coming from a livelihood angle in a way and I respect that.
As you said; O' Sensei was in real, potentially deadly fights and it honed his skills immeasureably and the development of Aikido benefitted.
Perhaps O'Sensei did the real fighting for all the younger people in generations to come who need not know real violent aggression in their life. Some younger Kohei and Sempai I have come into contact with probably couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag...but the development of character and in time technique will make these youngsters into men that an aggressor will be sorry to confront, regardless of strikes or no.
The rejection of ego and the love of peace are paramount to Aikido proficiency as it pertains to O'Sensei's vision.
Once again WHY does one train in Aikido?
Hopefully for the DO to KI and AI.

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:54 PM   #82
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post

I also think it's a great idea to take up some form of striking where you actually make some contact, because nothing prepares you for getting hit, like getting hit! And if we learn to occasionally eat a jab without panic setting in, we can focus on more important issues like getting inside, setting up a throw, etc. Perhaps training our body to absorb a jab is easier and more likely than devising some fancy defense against a lightning fast, uncommitted punch?
After rereading this thread I just have to agree with this somewhat...
(somewhat).
It goes back to the reason one takes Aikido...If it's for self-defense then I am bound to agree with Mr. Crowell.
When I was a young 14 year old football player our (poor) coach had us run plays and positions, never wearing our gear....when our first game came up we got crushed BECAUSE we had never been hit before....
a good analogy as any but if you're training for scrapping purposes than YES. punch me first so i know what to expect in a real fight and I won't panic or freeze.

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:30 PM   #83
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Ben Tang wrote: View Post
Hi Reuben,
Thanks for the insight.
I would like to share my personal thoughts..

Aikido is not meant to be compared to other forms of martial art used for self defense. Many has tried to pit Aikido against other MMA fighting i.e. KDTA, CMD, Karate..

The essence of fighting is totally different

The most basic rule of Aikido is establishing the threat and moving away instead of receiving punches /kicks; hence the irimi tenkan and kaiten movement. If you compare this with other "receiving" martial art ..it will involve some blocking; be it kickboxing, CMD, KDTA, karate etc..

Aikido trains someone to avoid conflict. Thats the philosophy built into it ..the way of harmony..

If a student of Aikido expects to be a street fighter upon completing their dan or higher ranks I think he is looking in the wrong place to start with.

katate tori, shomen and yokomen technique were all simulated attacks of the sword..
the hand as explained before is an extension of the sword hence vice versa

No doubt, no one will rush at you with a samurai sword in this century but we have to understand that Aikido was created by Osensei based on aikijiujitsu which is a samurai art widely used when everyone was wielding sword.

They dont jab or kick, they cut !! SO the inherent danger was the sword and not the arms or legs.. so aikijiujitsu protects life...

Thanks Ben Good to see a fellow Malaysian here! I totally agree that Aikido is a different sort of martial art than the other martial arts you mentioned.

Aikido is also often promoted as a self defense and I'm not expecting an Aikidoka to go out in the street and fight everyone, but I do hope that an Aikidoka should at least be able to neutralize an attack or avoid confrontation when confronted in the street.

Avoiding confrontation is something that can be taught without the Aikido movements. The Aikido movements do reinforce and cultivate this concept but such techiques should also deal with the the former, the 'neutralizing an attack' part which is what makes Aikido a martial art with a philosophy rather than just a philosophy.

I also understand Aikido's origins and the reason behind somewhat traditional attacks that are not seen 'on the street'. However there is no reason why Aikido should not be updated to reflect the modern world where people do not attack with swords (most of the time) nor in a single strike manner. A lot of Aikido is still relevant and applicable, in fact I recently pulled off a classic irimi nage in a MMA sparring session. It's just adapting and getting people aware of the randomness and unpredictability of real situations which is something randoori in my opinion does not address to a sufficient extent.

There's a difference between becoming a streetfighter (which I'm not saying is good) and being able to defend yourself on the street (basically, real world applications).
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:41 PM   #84
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Very good point Mr. Tang.
Aikido comes from an age when swords were the weapons of choice and that is a very good point when comparing Aikido w/ other martial arts. Anyone can take a beating, but Aikido can save a life by not getting cut, or having your head cracked on the pavement by rolling, or sidestepping a thrusting knife and countering, etc..

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:44 PM   #85
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

i am not sure of this is what you mean by realistic sparring

but

i spent many years in karate before comng to aikido, I still go and play with the karate oy sometimes and try to throw in some aikido if we have agreed it is ok before hand

i have notice many of the same thing as you mentioned, it can be difficult to do a techniques of a 'tester jab' but it is a different sort of fight, outside i wouldn;t be softing up people with jabs so much as going in to do as much damage as possible and so would my opponent at the time i guess

on attcking, yes many many aikidoka need to leanr to attack better, I sometimes (depending on grade) start really going for the attacks, sometimes bobbing and weaving before hand so i don;t telegraph the punch, really changes the feel of the training
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:57 PM   #86
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Eugene Leslie wrote: View Post
Mr. Yap

Thanks for the insight into Aikido as it applies to the world of MMA and real life situations. I wondered how it was viewed by fighters like yourself.
I too have found in Aikido training the lack of realistic "street" fighting for self-defence and have come across guest instuctors (no disrespect towards Sensei's intended) who bring their own assistants that offer no resistance and assist the instructor in their techniques without resisting or attacking in an unpredictable manner, and I found myself wondering about real-life situations.
I have a background of some hard style martial arts (just dabbled and by no means am I an expert or proficient) and I've been in real fight situations as a younger man and it seems to me that it all comes down to WHY one is training in Aikido.
If one is training to be an aggressor than he's there for the wrong reasons. This is more than opinion as O' Sensei said himself not to casually teach Aikido techniques to anyone in case it is used by thugs.
I understand that you're talking about strikes or the lack thereof in Aikido and I agree...but if I could go back in time and learn JUST Aikido, no other martial arts, then I think I would apply the fluidity and adaptiveness of Aikido as O'Sensei intended and my mind would not be occupied by thoughts of "what if" and "should I". I would react with pure Aikido and keep myself AND my opponent unharmed.
As it is I am a beginner and my cup still has some emptying to be done. If I were confronted at this stage I would no doubt strike out first because I know my capabilities: on the other hand, the reason I started Aikido was to be the civil, empathetic person that I truly am, devoid of ego and strive to be the the loving person that O'Sensei envisioned people of peace loving character to be. I have no desire to knock teeth out...it's reprehensible to me. Once again am I fighting for pride or protection? If there's a child involved than I guess anything goes.
Now I know you're a MMA guy so you're coming from a livelihood angle in a way and I respect that.
As you said; O' Sensei was in real, potentially deadly fights and it honed his skills immeasureably and the development of Aikido benefitted.
Perhaps O'Sensei did the real fighting for all the younger people in generations to come who need not know real violent aggression in their life. Some younger Kohei and Sempai I have come into contact with probably couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag...but the development of character and in time technique will make these youngsters into men that an aggressor will be sorry to confront, regardless of strikes or no.
The rejection of ego and the love of peace are paramount to Aikido proficiency as it pertains to O'Sensei's vision.
Once again WHY does one train in Aikido?
Hopefully for the DO to KI and AI.
Thanks Eugene, that was an excellent post.

I can understand where you are coming from.

To be honest, Steven Seagal was the reason I joined Aikido way back some 16-17 years ago. I'm sure many of us can say the same with Aikido enjoying a huge surge in popularity while he was in fashion. Who wasn't attracted by the fluidity, dynamisn and basically the effortlessness of Aikido against a physically stronger opponent? I'm not a 'MMA fighter' as you put it, as I actually started with Aikido and only have been training in MMA for a year.

I was also the more passive type, didn't really like to start trouble and all these combined made Aikido seem to be an ideal form of self defense to take up.

There are those that do Aikido purely for its philosophy, the way it changes your world view or just for some good ol fun. In fact, I still practice Aikido because I still enjoy doing so despite knowing its limitations.

However a significant percentage of Aikido practitioners also do it because they believe it's applicable as a self defense and is often marketed as such.

The thing is O'Sensei probably came up with a viable art that could be used in self defense. For him and many others, Aikido works in real life situations as well. Perhaps someone who studied Aikido a little could counter it but generally, if you didn't know what he was doing, Aikido works. In fact, Aikido once protected me when I was attacked at knife point on the street where I disabled the attacker (somewhat ungracefully I might add) but in this scenario I had the element of surprise + a static knife target. It was still an unnecessary risk but that's another story.

Nowadays, the way Aikido is being taught does not prepare one for such real life scenarios. I was lucky that the target was static in my real life application but most of the times, your target will be a moving, raging, unpredictable opponent.

Aikido requires you to remain calm in a confrontation, something that cannot be developed unless you've been in a real fight yourself where you truly fear for your life. Sparring is a close approximation which still is for the most part safe. Randoori is on a step lower where you are generally limited to a certain preset kind and rhythm of attack and to me is insufficient to develop that sort of calmness.

O'Sensei, Gozo Shioda (in fact I heard Gozo Shioda actively looked for fights in his youth to test his skills) had acquired the necessary calmness and understanding of fight mechanics to make Aikido work. If u were just in an average dojo, these things would not be picked up.

Okie one instance where I tried using Aikido where I allowed my friend to attack me anyway he wanted. I quickly realized that ma-ai was not something that can be grasped from randoori or class. After getting hit several times in the face, I then truly had an 'ah ha' moment where I understood what it meant by ma-ai and the whole purpose of having your hands out. Occupying the space, and distancing yourself properly made it difficult for him to attack me unless he made a truly committal attack. I eventually got taken down through a mad bull rush takedown which I was ill prepared for :P but throughout the session both parties weren't' getting any headway, I wasn't pulling off any techniques (my friend knew Aikido too so he knew exactly what i was doing) but he wasn't landing any punches in either.

So in short, what I'm saying is that there are new tools that SHOULD be introduced into Aikido. To me sparring is NOT competition, it's about learning. In a sparring match, there's no real 'winner or loser', sure you may realize you have been 'outplayed' but I generally come out feeling hey, I learnt something even when I was 'outplayed'. As such, I really don't see why more realistic training cannot be introduced into Aikido at least at a brown belt level.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:57 PM   #87
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Hey guys correct me if I'm wrong but "attack" and Aikido are not compatable. Jab, punch, smash? Situational, family defense... maybe; But to intentionally seek out your opponent's blood doesn't jive with Osensei's vision of what Aikido should be.
I'm not trying to be anal here...just reconciling the philosophy, which a high level, proficient practitioner can possibly apply, making Aikido the ultimate peacemaker through neutralization.

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:00 AM   #88
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
i am not sure of this is what you mean by realistic sparring

but

i spent many years in karate before comng to aikido, I still go and play with the karate oy sometimes and try to throw in some aikido if we have agreed it is ok before hand

i have notice many of the same thing as you mentioned, it can be difficult to do a techniques of a 'tester jab' but it is a different sort of fight, outside i wouldn;t be softing up people with jabs so much as going in to do as much damage as possible and so would my opponent at the time i guess

on attcking, yes many many aikidoka need to leanr to attack better, I sometimes (depending on grade) start really going for the attacks, sometimes bobbing and weaving before hand so i don;t telegraph the punch, really changes the feel of the training
I think you hit it right on the nail. Basically REALLY going for the attack, not telegraphing it and having an attack that you'll have something to be fearful about rather than just a small 'ouch' does change the feel of the training. This combined with more random attacks rather than traditional ones would be the sort of sparring I would like to see become more mainstream with the higher grades.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:03 AM   #89
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Eugene Leslie wrote: View Post
Hey guys correct me if I'm wrong but "attack" and Aikido are not compatable. Jab, punch, smash? Situational, family defense... maybe; But to intentionally seek out your opponent's blood doesn't jive with Osensei's vision of what Aikido should be.
I'm not trying to be anal here...just reconciling the philosophy, which a high level, proficient practitioner can possibly apply, making Aikido the ultimate peacemaker through neutralization.
You know what I mean .

Uke is also meant to be a representation of your 'ATTACKER' and hence he does attacks. If 'uke' is not meant to attack and his tsuki and yokomen uchis are not 'attacks'...then Aikido would be simply an art to be only used in the dojo.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:14 AM   #90
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

I was referring more to Mr. Mcdonald's comments, but yes I know what you meant.
I guess it really comes down to "faith" in Aikido.
What was Osensei? under 5' and 120lbs?
What about the power of Ki?
Tell me Reuben (you've been training for quite awhile) do you think an Aikidoka can be as fluent and as devastating as Steven Seagal with enough training? (I too was a big fan at the time and he has been quite the ambassador).
The question is a two-parter:
- Against a common thug
- Against a trained fighter (unusual circumstances to be sure).

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:21 AM   #91
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Well I wouldn't know how devastating Steven Seagal is in real life but

1) Against a common thug:

This is what I am hoping to answer, and I am tending towards yes with more realistic training.

2) Against a trained fighter:

No, but Aikido wasn't intended as such and I don't see it as a failing.

In Aikido we learn to train without resistance but we must train for a common thug's resistance (at higher grades) if we are practicing Aikido also for its self defence element.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:36 AM   #92
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

The "appearance" of devastation by Seagal and hollywood. LOL!
Osensei was one in a trillion..a gift from the universe itself; he harnessed ki and self-awareness and I find myself desiring those mystical powers but I'm a speck compared; I know humility and sincere understanding are more important and must come first.
I've been corrupted and hard-wired by western egotistical thinking...I must conquer myself. the real fight is with me.

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides
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Old 01-05-2010, 03:51 PM   #93
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
Well I wouldn't know how devastating Steven Seagal is in real life but

1) Against a common thug:

This is what I am hoping to answer, and I am tending towards yes with more realistic training.

2) Against a trained fighter:

No, but Aikido wasn't intended as such and I don't see it as a failing.

In Aikido we learn to train without resistance but we must train for a common thug's resistance (at higher grades) if we are practicing Aikido also for its self defence element.
Strange...I was told multiple attackers, with bladed weapons.

"Even through surrounded by a great number of enemy
View them as one person
And so fight on!"
-from O'sensei's Doka
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:43 PM   #94
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Lethal intent and trained fighters are different tho...
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Old 01-06-2010, 02:52 AM   #95
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
Perception of an Attack

In Aikido, most students aren't really good attackers.

However, CMD removed my fear of being punched. I no longer flinch and got used to the faster punch speeds.

You can't expect to apply Aikido to every attack

When I swapped these sloppy attacks with more realistic quick punches, you realized that there are punches that you can't do a technique on (for example a crisp jab),

Realistic Sparring changes your Mindset- you can't always be passive

CMD also introduced me to realistic sparring where you don't really know how the other guy is going to attack. Aikido randoori or jiyuwaza isn't really 'free' in that there are still predetermined attacks and...holds....
Heh, cant believe I didnt add my 2 cents.
[not missing much, and I pretty much agree with what you have said and believe many might share similar sentiments who have had a similar experience.]

As was pointed out in this thread, many fear that they have wasted their time so do not choose to look at the options that challenge their pre-held beliefs concerning what they have been involved in. [i.e. Aikido] But as what is pointed out, it actually allows you to go deeper.

This principle goes for anything really.
Same in my religious/spiritual life.
You get to a point in that which is the excepted norm, where you reach its limits, and see the shortcomings of the structure which really was never part of the structure... but you mistook it for just that.

You either go away bitter in delusionment, and thus loosing access to any of the key truths of said teaching/training, or it evolves on a new level all together. [i.e. the reptile did not learn to walk more efficiently but learned to fly thus bypassed walking altogether.]

Anyway valid points you brought up with the live training in Aikido.
Cant speak for every dojo, but it seems many would benefit from adding randori as a key element to their advanced training. [perhaps many do]

But as hinted at, people have at times [very] sloppy attacks.
Take a bit of boxing and you will realize that certain techniques in Aikido have to be applied differently - and your really relying on the core principles that you either picked up or didnt... and no, your Aikido will not look like something you do on your test.

I pulled kotegaeshi at my Thai-boxing/MMA class on a guy when we had a grappling session. But we both were on the ground, and not suwariwaza style either and I took the principle and got it to work.

Can I reproduce this? Again, its not about one set way of doing it... next time we might not be in that situation/position, etc. Its about taking the core principles and working with it... [it may be I never get it to work again... but then I will have other things to draw upon as I expand my arsenal as it were.]

As for the part of not being afraid to be hit... truth is Im not to keen on it. Used to be where it didnt phase me to get my head knocked around back when I did my short training in kickboxking. But, like with sk-8 boarding on ramps... I found as I aged, things hurt more.

[years back in my late 20s I went on a ramp and slammed... never experienced pain like that before, yet I had slammed quite a lot in my younger years and it had no affect on me.]

Ideally I suppose the best option for people aging would be to learn BJJ on the side of their Aikido... if they ever got into a fight [competition, etc.] they can minimize the punches perhaps and take it to the ground. [What do I know, I dont really watch that much MMA despite my interest in the concepts behind cross-training, etc.]

Anyway, sometimes we just dont really relate to something till we try it out... at times this may not be practical or wise, but its good to remember that things are sometimes a bit more than what we can actually relate to despite how much we think we get it.
[and no, I am not claiming to have gotten it... but I am happy with what I have learned in almost the past 3 years]

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 01-06-2010 at 03:00 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

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Old 01-06-2010, 06:15 AM   #96
DonMagee
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
i am not sure of this is what you mean by realistic sparring

but

i spent many years in karate before comng to aikido, I still go and play with the karate oy sometimes and try to throw in some aikido if we have agreed it is ok before hand

i have notice many of the same thing as you mentioned, it can be difficult to do a techniques of a 'tester jab' but it is a different sort of fight, outside i wouldn;t be softing up people with jabs so much as going in to do as much damage as possible and so would my opponent at the time i guess

on attcking, yes many many aikidoka need to leanr to attack better, I sometimes (depending on grade) start really going for the attacks, sometimes bobbing and weaving before hand so i don;t telegraph the punch, really changes the feel of the training
It really worries me that so many martial artists think that a 'street thug' or 'angry attacker' is going to always be a rage blinded idiot who just runs at you throwing wild haymakers trying to kill you. It worries me even more that not only do they think this, they absolutely count on it.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-06-2010, 07:00 AM   #97
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Worries me too Don. That mind set might give you comfort in that you have a particular scenario in your head and you've already played out the roles with the actors.

In reality that Thug, In economic terms, as calculated the cost/benefit ratio risk/return in his head and has a game plan and is actually fairly surgical in his attack. Don't confuse it with skill, as he may have none other than suprising you and overwhelming you with whatever to get to what he wants, acheive his objective and exit.

If you can weather his attack, regroup, and turn the tide in your direction...that is the key IMO and something we probably need to practice over and over from positions of failure.

Counting on him being off balance, in a rage...yeah...sure, that is one scenario for sure...but it is jus that, one scenario.

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Old 01-06-2010, 07:18 AM   #98
Stormcrow34
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Worries me too Don. That mind set might give you comfort in that you have a particular scenario in your head and you've already played out the roles with the actors.

In reality that Thug, In economic terms, as calculated the cost/benefit ratio risk/return in his head and has a game plan and is actually fairly surgical in his attack. Don't confuse it with skill, as he may have none other than suprising you and overwhelming you with whatever to get to what he wants, acheive his objective and exit.

If you can weather his attack, regroup, and turn the tide in your direction...that is the key IMO and something we probably need to practice over and over from positions of failure.

Counting on him being off balance, in a rage...yeah...sure, that is one scenario for sure...but it is jus that, one scenario.
Amen...I think you hit the nail squarely.

To anyone interested in the topic of self defense, I highly recommend a book titled: "Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence," by Rory Miller.

The author is a prison guard who has significant experience with "street thugs" and insists that these type of attacks are almost always faster, harder and more surprising and coordinated than we could anticipate.

I'm no expert on the subject, but I think this is why it's important to be able to take a shot or two without freezing up.

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 01-06-2010 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 01-06-2010, 07:20 AM   #99
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
Well I wouldn't know how devastating Steven Seagal is in real life but

1) Against a common thug:

This is what I am hoping to answer, and I am tending towards yes with more realistic training.

2) Against a trained fighter:

No, but Aikido wasn't intended as such and I don't see it as a failing.

In Aikido we learn to train without resistance but we must train for a common thug's resistance (at higher grades) if we are practicing Aikido also for its self defence element.
Reuben,

In light of the conversation about fighitng, I disagree that our objective is to learn to fight without resistance. In my experiences that has been a failing proposition for me as a strategy. Resistance implies "defense only" without offensive countermeasure being applied as "resistance" would be anything that is offensive. You simply cannot control a fight without seizing the iniative and controlling your opponent, this is offensive in nature and hence you must dominate and control.

Personally what I think gets lost in perspective is that Aikido is a methodology for learning certain aspects of a martial pracitce...it is not a "fight strategy" per se....so when I hear "Aikido is about fighting without resistance". That implies that it is a particular way/strategy for fighitng...and I personally feel that is where we get into trouble and folks start looking at aikido as a flawed methodolgy, when in fact it is not, it is simply being looked at in the wrong way.

Fighting is my life. It is what I do. As such, I have found a place for aikido as a methodology for mastering some very key and important concepts, and frankly, It is challenging slow, but does a good job in doing what it is designed to do which is to teach you how to move your body in very efficient ways.

Integrating this into a "fight strategy"...i.e "cross training" or "MMA", is the correct perspective I think....at least it is the one that works best for me. How do you take your basic fight plan and strategy, ie clinch, kicking, punching, weapons, pushing, shoving, use of mass etc....and make it more efficient?

To me, it requires looking at all the elements and aspects of fighitng and diving in on the spectrum and training each of them under methods of control. Randori is one element, Waza is another element..etc.

I think if we loook at aikido more as a methodology to learn some very important elements of fighitng and less of a method of fighting, it changes how we perceive and judge aikido as a success or failure.

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Old 01-06-2010, 07:30 AM   #100
dps
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Hello Don,

Does boxing give you a different perspective on atemi?

David
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