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Old 12-31-2009, 11:12 AM   #1
Asiatic Budoka
 
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Question "Principle" of Gokyo

Greetings to all,

As I understand the Aikido terminology, the "kyo" in Ikkyo, nikyo etc. refers to a "concept" or "principle".

Again, AS I UNDERSTAND IT...

Ikkyo = Ude osae
Nikyo = Tekubi mawashi
Sankyo = Kote Hineri
Yonkyo = Tekubi osae

What is the "concept" or "principle" of Gokyo?

Shareef Muhammad

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Old 12-31-2009, 11:38 AM   #2
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

What do those japanese phrases mean? Isn't gokkyo a knife disarming technique?
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Old 12-31-2009, 11:41 AM   #3
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Gokkyo is "ude nobashi"

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Old 12-31-2009, 11:44 AM   #4
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Gokkyo is "ude nobashi"
Ude nobashi ?????

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Old 12-31-2009, 11:47 AM   #5
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
What do those japanese phrases mean? Isn't gokkyo a knife disarming technique?
Ude osae = arm pin
tekubi mawashi = wrist (turn)around (sorry, exact translation is probably off).

kote hineri = wrist twist (i think)

Tekubi osae = wrist pin

But again this is "as I understand it"! I could be wrong.

And yes gokyo is commonly used as a knife disarming technique but the "kyo" there represents a "principle" if I'm not mistaken

Last edited by Asiatic Budoka : 12-31-2009 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Forgot to answer second question.

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Old 12-31-2009, 12:07 PM   #6
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Gokkyo is "ude nobashi"
OK! Nobashi is something like "stretch", if that's the case, I don't see how that applies to the gokkyo technique.

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Old 12-31-2009, 12:49 PM   #7
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Shareef Muhammad wrote: View Post
OK! Nobashi is something like "stretch", if that's the case, I don't see how that applies to the gokkyo technique.
Cf this post: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...50&postcount=6

Also gokkyo is referred to as "ude nobashi" in this book by the Nidai Doshu:


As can be seen in the table of contents, Gokkyo is referred to as "Ude nobashi"



I think the "stretching" reference is due to the reversed grip on uke's wrist, tori can't "cut" down as in "ikkyo". Instead, tori stretches out uke's arm and controls the elbow with the hand at the elbow.
Also in the tanto dori version, most people are familiar with the pin with uke's arm in a "Z" form.. pressure downwards forces uke's fingers to open and the tanto can be taken..
However, I have seen a video where the Sandai Doshu demonstrates another knife disarm from gokkyo where uke's arm is kept straight and stretched out on the mat and instead, pressure is applied to the base of uke's thumb to loosen the grip and take the tanto.

Hope this helps.

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Old 12-31-2009, 01:07 PM   #8
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Yoshinkan have a technique that is similar called "hiji osae." There are differences in how its done, though (ie, uke hand in middle of sh'te chest, uke palm up, energy goes to rear vice down.).

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Old 12-31-2009, 01:25 PM   #9
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Techniqueschart
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Old 12-31-2009, 01:29 PM   #10
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Shareef Muhammad wrote: View Post
Tekubi osae = wrist pin
Interesting, the focus with yonkyo the way I practice it is an elbow/shoulder pin.

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Old 12-31-2009, 01:37 PM   #11
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

The gokkyo I am referring to is illustrated below:


I believe that Yoshinkan's hiji-osae or hiji kime osae is known as ude-hishigi (at least in the book by Nidai Doshu that I cited above) and is also called "rokkyo" in a lot of dojos.

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Old 12-31-2009, 01:46 PM   #12
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Hiji shime (the last photo above) is also taught as a reclining pin in some yoshinkan dojo (and other places as well).

Best,
Ron

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Old 12-31-2009, 03:23 PM   #13
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Yes It does! Thanks!

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Old 12-31-2009, 03:24 PM   #14
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Thank you Michael! I didn't know that existed! Shows how much I pay attention huh?

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Old 12-31-2009, 03:27 PM   #15
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Yes, my sensei does Hiji Kime Osae and we call it rokkyo as well. But when I was part of another organization, they called it gokkyo!
Hey, go figure...

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Old 12-31-2009, 03:46 PM   #16
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hiji shime (the last photo above) is also taught as a reclining pin in some yoshinkan dojo (and other places as well).

Best,
Ron
Ron, would the reclining pin resemble the waki-gatame in judo?



Happy New Year to all!

Cito

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Old 12-31-2009, 03:56 PM   #17
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

very much like that....but you can also do it like the standing pin with palm up, but on the ground. I think one of the differences with wakigatame is the positioning of the palm. I think Larry pointed that out the last time...or Peter....or one of the shodo thugs.
B,
R

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Old 12-31-2009, 04:05 PM   #18
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Wakigatame is usually performed with the armpit while rokkyo with (a bent) elbow.

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Old 12-31-2009, 05:54 PM   #19
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

I've seen hijishime performed both ways (and done it both ways myself), but the forth dans in my dojo always correct me when I do it with the elbow, reminding me that the armpit is better...

I tend to agree with them.

Best,
Ron

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Old 12-31-2009, 06:48 PM   #20
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

I teach gokyo with my rokyo often. I would call the elbow controlling part of the technique rokyo, and the wrist folding part gokyo.

That illustration from Aikido and the dynamic sphere is the way I originally learned gokyo, and had a hard time distinguishing it from ikkyo, with a strange grip. I never bought into the knife cutting idea, because if gripped correctly ikkyo can do the same thing.

As I started looking at Daito Ryu waza I opened up my definition of what I would call gokyo. The folding of the wrist seems to be it's key distinguishing characteristic.

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Old 12-31-2009, 06:58 PM   #21
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Ron,

That's pretty much how we do hiji shime in our dojo. We definitely make a distinction with waki gatame and gokyo as their are multiple arts in our dojo. The difference with the hand-drawn picture up above is that we would normally keep our back straight, and, in relation to the lady, would have our left hand grabbing our right lapel, plus uke's arm would be up in the armpit. We don't really use kime in a technique name since its already understood what the technique is (ie, we don't call kotegaeshi, "tekubi kime" or "kotegaeshi kime"

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Old 01-01-2010, 04:24 AM   #22
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

In the videos below Ando Sensei of Yoshinkan Hombu demonstrates "Kata Mochi Hiji shime".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLkXFNNS2TU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spU3iHLpehQ
Here's a screen cap from the video:

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Old 01-01-2010, 12:53 PM   #23
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

In "Budo" by M. Ueshiba and "Budo" by M. Saito gokyo is called ippo and ikkyo but later the name is changed by M. Ueshiba to gokyo.

Seems like putting the principle in the pin is not quite clear so the distinction between ikkyo and gokyo must be fairly subtle.

I learned another pin in Iwama style but cannot find that pin in the "Takemusu Aikido" series by M. Saito. Basically just prior to pinning the arm flat on the mat the inner knee is down out the outer knee is up and uke arm is captured but the raised knee and pressure is put on the elbow. Mush faster than going to the mat and then to the 'Z' pin. Both pins are very effective.

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Old 01-01-2010, 02:40 PM   #24
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Hi

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
What do those japanese phrases mean? Isn't gokkyo a knife disarming technique?
Ikkyo through gokyu build up the basic system of katame waza or osae waza in most of aikido styles.
First they are used in tai jutsu. So gokyo first and foremost is not a disarming technique but the fifth of the basic pins.

Second all of those pins are also used in buki dori i.e. tanto dori (not nikyo and yonkyo in our aikido), jo dori (not gokyu in our aikido), tachi dori (not gokyo in our aikido).

Quote:
Shareef Muhammad wrote: View Post
OK! Nobashi is something like "stretch", if that's the case, I don't see how that applies to the gokkyo technique.
Gokyo is a derivat of ikkyo. It's not only that the grip at the wrist is reversed but gokyu much more debends on the stretched elbow.
So gokyo is doing ikkyo with a streched elbow. It can be done omote and ura.

Corresponding:
Hiji kime osae or rokkyo ist doing nikyo ura with a stretched elbow. So the palm is up.

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I learned another pin in Iwama style but cannot find that pin in the "Takemusu Aikido" series by M. Saito. Basically just prior to pinning the arm flat on the mat the inner knee is down out the outer knee is up and uke arm is captured but the raised knee and pressure is put on the elbow.
We end up this way in ikkyo ura from chudan tsuki.

That's how see the things.

Carsten
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Old 01-01-2010, 05:17 PM   #25
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Re: "Principle" of Gokyo

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Hi

Ikkyo through gokyu build up the basic system of katame waza or osae waza in most of aikido styles.
First they are used in tai jutsu. So gokyo first and foremost is not a disarming technique but the fifth of the basic pins.

Second all of those pins are also used in buki dori i.e. tanto dori (not nikyo and yonkyo in our aikido), jo dori (not gokyu in our aikido), tachi dori (not gokyo in our aikido).

Gokyo is a derivat of ikkyo. It's not only that the grip at the wrist is reversed but gokyu much more debends on the stretched elbow.
So gokyo is doing ikkyo with a streched elbow. It can be done omote and ura.


Corresponding:
Hiji kime osae or rokkyo ist doing nikyo ura with a stretched elbow. So the palm is up.

We end up this way in ikkyo ura from chudan tsuki.

That's how see the things.

Carsten
I know what ikkyo through gokkyo means, but I didn't understand the descriptions My Japanese limits itself to some loose words mainly. Nice to know that rokkyo is a synonym to hiji kime osae (which is by far one of the most dangerous techniques in aikido imo).

Last edited by Maarten De Queecker : 01-01-2010 at 05:19 PM.
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