Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Language

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-27-2009, 07:58 AM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: "Shinto" or "Shin Tao"?

Quote:
Exploding is just an accelerated painful expansion.
Yeah, but if you have the skilz no one can make you explode....you are invincible! (as one of my best friends said last night while dodging his son's snowballs...)

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2009, 08:15 AM   #27
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: "Shinto" or "Shin Tao"?

Hi Maggie, I guess perhaps it wasn't clear to some of us (perhaps a lack of reading skills on our part) that you had acknolowged the mistake. I at least, had the impression that in the face of mounting evidence, you were still defending your original position.

One thing I will often do, is to pose questions, avoiding statements of fact unless I'm sure, as I did here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...90&postcount=5

Best,
Ron
Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I believe you. I'm willing to admit I was wrong(I've said this 5million times) but I gave my source for why I chose to spell it the way I did.


I have a really high tolerance for misspelling and grammar issues actually. It may come from working with children. I also used to work in Brazil as missionary with children, and their English was worse than my own. Either way, I've grown to be cool so long as I understand what some one is saying.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2009, 01:28 PM   #28
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 905
United_States
Offline
Re: "Shinto" or "Shin Tao"?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Maggie, I guess perhaps it wasn't clear to some of us (perhaps a lack of reading skills on our part) that you had acknolowged the mistake. I at least, had the impression that in the face of mounting evidence, you were still defending your original position.

One thing I will often do, is to pose questions, avoiding statements of fact unless I'm sure, as I did here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...90&postcount=5

Best,
Ron
I would have to admit, I know nothing. So,I'm cool with respectful rebuke.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2009, 09:03 AM   #29
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 816
United_States
Offline
Re: "Shinto" or "Shin Tao"?

What Ellis described happens to me constantly with my Japanese in-laws.

The r/l thing is the best example of the flip-side of this. I have exchanged thousands of emails with my wife over the years and it always strikes me as weird that she will mis-TYPE words the same way she mispronounces them. In particular, she'll replace Ls with Rs. You wouldn't think a pronunciation issue would occur in text but there you have it.

Also, Japanese speakers with English as a second language seem to be more comfortable with the salutation "Dera Mr. ..." I imagine it the word "Dear" just don't look right, or perhaps typing two vowels right alongside each other doesn't feel right.

Someone should also point out that it is apparently very very difficult for English speakers to get the proper non-inflection right in Japanese. I think I am pretty good at supressing my urge to stress the middle syllable of the word "Aikido" but my wife tells me I get it wrong all the time; apparently I let the last syllable drop too much. We've got a dog named Tomoe - I wonder how confused she is over what her name is.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2009, 09:19 AM   #30
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 607
United_States
Offline
Re: "Shinto" or "Shin Tao"?

Hey Maggie,

I'm not sure, but I read Ron as gently suggesting a different way of opening up the conversation (asking questions), rather than making declarative statements when he wasn't really sure about something.

I'm also not sure if you read it that way.

Did you?

In any event I think its a good suggestion generally, particularly when there so often are folks here with detailed knowledge about particular subjects.

FWIW

cdh
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2009, 11:50 AM   #31
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: "Shinto" or "Shin Tao"?

Thank you David, you made my point exactly. I was hoping to be gentle and clear...somehow you did both, better.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 04:38 PM   #32
Rennis Buchner
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 60
Japan
Offline
Re: "Shinto" or "Shin Tao"?

Quote:
Doug Walker wrote: View Post
It really doesn't make sense to me as so much in Japanese is context driven with lots of aisatsu and inference. Why is it that slight mispronunciation seems so often to be catastrophic?
Or, is it just me being wrong again...
In my experience much of it is the "deer in headlights" panic situation of many having to deal with us outlanders as it were. In some cases they are so worried about having to "hear" the English they think is coming that they simply seem to turn off any listening skills in their native language with the end result being something like when you catch a tune on the radio on the wrong beat and you know you know the song, but it is just all wrong until something changes to resent the rhythm back to what you are used to. I remember back in my first semester of uni I went to Tokyo to meet up with some people and the annual Yasukuni embu was happening so I decided to check it out. The map I had was a bit unclear (as Japanese maps usually are) so while I knew I had to take one of two major roads branching out from the station, I couldn't tell which one. I asked an older lady selling food at a stand at the station in Japanese which street Yasukuni jinja was on. She freaks out and starts saying "Eigo wakaranai! Eigo wakaranai!" After going back and forth she finally "hears" Yasukuni jinja. I show her my map (written in Japanese) and ask which of the two streets we are facing is the one on the map with Yasukuni jinja on it. She freaks out again "Eigo yomenai!! Eigo yomenai!" Eventually she runs off and brings back an old man to help me instead. Thinking the problem is finally solved I repeat my original question (keeping in mind this entire discussion has been in Japanese from the start). His reply..... "Nnnnn.......Eigo wakaranai ne." Eventually I just went to the police box across the street and asked the officer standing there who just grunted and pointed me in the right direction.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2009, 02:21 PM   #33
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
In response to complaints on my phonetic spelling of "shinto", I've been spelling it as "Shin Tao" which has been annoying some people.

A source:
Shinto is an ancient Japanese religion. Starting about 500 BCE (or earlier) it was originally "an amorphous mix of nature worship, fertility cults, divination techniques, hero worship, and shamanism." Its name was derived from the Chinese words "shin tao" ("The Way of the Gods")
http://www.religioustolerance.org/shinto.htm

People got upset privately and publically with my spelling of "Shinto".. in the end we are taking non-English characters and trying to translate in a phonetic language. So in the end I don't even think the spelling matters, but it was a big point to some to discredit my intelligence in general LOL
Too add:


"Shinto" originated in an early Chinese term pronounced Shentao. Shinto wasn't an organized religious tradition and practice that owes allot to its organization and content to Chinese and Buddist influences. It really isn't a indigenous religion of Japan, as many think, and reasonably so. Prior to it organization it was loosely organized around family lines having no central organization, without a common name, inferes an absense of a common accepted spelling in English. So when Buddhism and Chinese culture pop on scene before Shinto (or Shen tao per your prefer of spelling in English) in Japan was there a reason for distingushing the old traditional stuff from the new forign stuff. That includes language, a centralized or common name etc. The Japanese took up the Japanese expression of "kami no michi" a.k.a Shinto. It is despite the influences from the Buddists and Chinese on "kami no michi" that they kept the understood expression of "kami no michi."

So if anything, Shinto is Shentao or Shin tao ( heck we haven’t even talked impacts of native Japanese accents or dialects on the word, we just talkin’ spellin’ Cuz) can be acceptable spelling in the English language. Though many academic types use Shinto, and those McArthur pissed off, and the fall out from that results in the most frequent spelling of "kami no michi” as Shinto, it’s not the only one. That is why in English we do thing like use parenthesizes when we write as such, “The Shentao (Shinto) tradition….” That isn’t the only way we do it either, sometimes we use the word, “or” or a.k.a. explain it. Like for example, Shin tao, or also known as Shinto, etc. But, we don’t have toooo. Especially, here since this isn’t a publish text or anything. People, well most have brains, to figure it out.

And what we should really be typing furiously at our warrior keyboards in our bunny slippers is the more accurate and intended Japanese expression of "kami no michi" instead of Shinto or variations of spelling. Something which initially and originally lacked a common or central name. I am sure there where hundreds of other names for the old religious traditions of Japan before someone decided they needed a common name for it so it wouldn't get mixed up with the Buddist and Chinese stuff that it eventually was influenced and did get mixed up with it. Ouch! Someone did their hoooooomeworrrrrk, all in their bunny slippers. I bet I get an A+ LOL I know am going to be flammed, at least I will have my aikibunny flame retardent swimsuit on.

Last edited by Buck : 12-31-2009 at 02:27 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2009, 02:37 PM   #34
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: "Shinto" or "Shin Tao"?

Shinto or Shentao or Shin Tao by any other name....well you get. If it wasn't apparent in my post to some, Shinto does reflect the Chinese influence and is a Japanese-ization of the Chinese word, in the Chinese English translation spelling is spelled "Shentao." But I see no reason for a more accurate spelling of Shin tao to reflect the Chinese influence on "kami no michi." Shinto (the spelling) is really for us guijing types anyways. And who says in a 100 years ther' ain't gonna be a different spellin'. That does happen.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2009, 02:38 PM   #35
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: "Shinto" or "Shin Tao"?

Cough...did you READ the posts in this thread?

What was written was just plain wrong. The person who wrote it has acknowledged it was wrong. It was not a crime to be wrong, but I fail to see why someone would continue to try to defend it now that it has been clearly identified as wrong.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2009, 02:47 PM   #36
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: "Shinto" or "Shin Tao"?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Cough...did you READ the posts in this thread?

What was written was just plain wrong. The person who wrote it has acknowledged it was wrong. It was not a crime to be wrong, but I fail to see why someone would continue to try to defend it now that it has been clearly identified as wrong.

Best,
Ron
I know Ron. I know....it's ok....am very subtle sometimes and it is hard for some to know what am getting at, at times. It's a fault of mine and I know. One of my points is it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. What matters is everyone but Maggie was wrong! And when Maggie used Shin Tao instead of the common spelling, I knew what she meant with the spelling. I got it. I wasn't posting to defend, but to add to, as stated in the first line of my post.

Happy New Year to you, and keep safe this holiday. And take care of that cough.

Last edited by Buck : 12-31-2009 at 02:50 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2009, 02:49 PM   #37
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: "Shinto" or "Shin Tao"?

Thanks Buck, I'm gonna stay warm and inside with my SO and a good meal and a good wine! Off the roads feels safest this time of year

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Mugendo Budogu - Official Aikikai Hakama now available!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:11 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate