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Old 12-21-2009, 05:00 PM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ground Defense

IMO, there are several essential ground skills that should be learned by all, the clinch, escaping the mount, dealing with the guard, rear mount, and side control and standing up in base. You don't need to perfect every single pass, sweep, or even learn 101 submissions.

I am a BJJ guy, but for aikidoka and those wanting to learn SD from the ground, I modify the curriculum to teach how to recover our balance, stand back up, and escaping the positions so you can get back to your feet.

to be honest, alot of the Judo newaza and BJJ newaza is good stuff and makes for interesting practice, but is not entirely necessary to learn the fundamental skills if that is all you are really concerned with.

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Old 12-21-2009, 05:54 PM   #27
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Ground Defense

We train ground work, as Michael said. However the focus of our ground training is weapon oriented. This makes most of the skills learned in Aikido waza still very applicable.

A little time spent on the ground will make you much more comfortable then 90% of the American population if you end up on the ground in a fight. Time spent on ground work is well worth the investment.

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Old 12-21-2009, 06:47 PM   #28
Flintstone
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
RED wrote:
If you get caught on the ground, you have failed to practice aikido effectively. If you don't trust your aikido not to fail, then it is prudent to cross train in BJJ or other ground arts, absolutely.
However, in the end for an Aikidoka, having strong enough Aikido to trust that you will not allow yourself to be taken to the ground is thegoal.
I do trust my Aikido, thanks. But I know there are a million ways for me to end up on the ground. Your assumption on the art is, again, wrong and dellusional. I hope you never get to defend yourself with your infallible Aikido.

And once again, I traing in Aikijujutsu Yoseikan Ha, don't come tell me what Aikijujutsu is all about and what its assumptions are. Please.
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:08 PM   #29
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Brian Gillaspie wrote: View Post
I'm just curious how many dojos train for defending yourself when you are on the ground. If you do, how often do you train.

I know in a perfect world you should never end up on the ground but I know I am not always perfect....my wife reminds me of that quite often.
I feel like every time I've been pinned I learned a little about newaza. I can also remember a handful of times when sempai showed me that just because I had them on their back while practicing kokyuho, they were still in control. So my newaza "studies" came about informally. Then there was growing up where my first contact with "the mount" came in the form of "the piano player" in which my large friends sat on me and poked me repeatedly in the chest. I was a little out of tune I'm afraid.
It was awesome when I realized that through relaxation and focus I could reach up with my flexible legs and pull them backwards...um, but I suppose that doesn't count since they weren't exactly what many people would called "trained," or "good."

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-21-2009 at 07:13 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:17 PM   #30
MattRice
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
What if god forbid you were being rapped. i am sure you would like to rethink your stance at that point. And also remember this combat is fluid and ugly, nothing goes as planned, i dont care how great you are at a particular martial art win or lose you will get hit.
<unlurk>

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOk: that's a bit much.
First off, if Flava Flav comes up and starts rapping her, she can probably defend against that fairly easily with a set of head phones and an iPod. No take down defense necessary.

Second, Maggie is actively giving into the argument, she is stating clearly where her interests in Aikido lie. Why continue poking at her on this point? Further why do it in such a jarring and, in my opinion, distasteful way?

People come to martial arts for different reasons. Some have no delusions that their training will save them: others are convinced that it will. I'm not sure where the truth is in there, I just "head for the light and heat"...and crosstrain.

</relurk>
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:46 PM   #31
Aristeia
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
What if god forbid you were being rapped. i am sure you would like to rethink your stance at that point. And also remember this combat is fluid and ugly, nothing goes as planned, i dont care how great you are at a particular martial art win or lose you will get hit.
I think Maggie's response was one of the best I've seen on topics such as this. What is wrong with simply saying "i don't practice Aikido to turn myself into a warrior bad ass- it's just fun". It's not combat, it's a hobby. She has enough sense to see if she was concerned about self defence she'd need to do BJJ or similar, but is cleart that that is not why she trains. Seems reasonable to me.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:59 PM   #32
RED
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
What if god forbid you were being rapped. i am sure you would like to rethink your stance at that point. And also remember this combat is fluid and ugly, nothing goes as planned, i dont care how great you are at a particular martial art win or lose you will get hit.
I took rape defense for that reason... I'm pretty good with a hand gun too lol

I do Aikido because I'm in love with Aikido. It is more than just a hobby to me, and it definitely is more than a means of self defense. It is an art to me, its beautiful, and I'm in love with the art... I not a warrior, I'm a martial artist.

I sort of don't like a lot of people' s attitudes on the issue actually. Not you in particular, but there are some people about here sort of acting like meat heads, sort of jerking off about how they could beat some one in a fight and how bad ass they are....very Aiki!

Last edited by RED : 12-21-2009 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:09 PM   #33
Ketsan
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Certainly not the same.
Not the same but often just as good, real life isn't the octogon after all. To bastardise a phrase, "The guy that wins a ground fight is the guy who's mates show up first with steel toe caps/bar stool/broken bottle first/pint glass (although safety glass is a bitch here) pool cue/pool ball/knife/gun/size 9 new rocks with spikes and UV reactive laces(goths)/pen/mp3 leads"

It being the case that most trouble kicks off around alcohol and most of the time and that means groups of people. In that kind of situation the validity of ground work rapidly deminishes in the face of the reality of a full on bar brawl. That being the case the only thing you can really worry about is making sure the impact with the floor doesn't incapacitate you.

The reality of ground fighting is probably buying three or four seconds for your mate to arrive. If your mate isn't there by then his will be.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:21 PM   #34
aikishrine
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I took rape defense for that reason... I'm pretty good with a hand gun too lol

I do Aikido because I'm in love with Aikido. It is more than just a hobby to me, and it definitely is more than a means of self defense. It is an art to me, its beautiful, and I'm in love with the art... I not a warrior, I'm a martial artist.

I sort of don't like a lot of people' s attitudes on the issue actually. Not you in particular, but there are some people about here sort of acting like meat heads, sort of jerking off about how they could beat some one in a fight and how bad ass they are....very Aiki!
I agree with you Maggie, i love Aikido. It is an art and it is beautiful and that is why i practice it. However you yourself said that you are a martial artist. And true martial artist are prepared for all contingencies. And no offense but we all know that those rape self defense courses are not very good. But the handgun very effective though not very aiki in philosophy.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:46 PM   #35
Brian Gillaspie
 
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Re: Ground Defense

I started the thread jsut to see if other dojos trained ground defense and did not intend for it to become a discussion on whether ground defenses should be part of aikido....although I was afaid that would happen.

For me personally, groundwork is part of aikido. If it is not part of your aikido then that is fine with me. I'll keep my opinions to myself because I know everyone does aikido for different reasons.

So I hope no one is getting to worked up by this thread. Besides, we have other things to worry about this week like reamining calm and centered while dealing with stupid people while I finish up last minute Christmas shopping.
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:44 AM   #36
Flintstone
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Re: Ground Defense

Absolutely a part of Aikido in my style. Looks like a part of O Sensei's Aikido to me too.
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:47 AM   #37
chillzATL
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I took rape defense for that reason... I'm pretty good with a hand gun too lol

I do Aikido because I'm in love with Aikido. It is more than just a hobby to me, and it definitely is more than a means of self defense. It is an art to me, its beautiful, and I'm in love with the art... I not a warrior, I'm a martial artist.

I sort of don't like a lot of people' s attitudes on the issue actually. Not you in particular, but there are some people about here sort of acting like meat heads, sort of jerking off about how they could beat some one in a fight and how bad ass they are....very Aiki!
I fully understand your perspective on it. I learned long ago that people train for a variety of reasons that differ from my own. As long as you know why you train and are comfortable with that, I wish you nothing but the best, but at the same time, if that's why you train then you shouldn't offer your opinion in a thread like this one. It's certainly your right to do so, but you shouldn't get upset when the "meatheads" respond to your perspective with their own. I doubt many of those people have any illusions of being a badass. They simply want to be more prepared than you want to be.
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:50 AM   #38
Melchizedek
 
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
What if god forbid you were being rapped. i am sure you would like to rethink your stance at that point. And also remember this combat is fluid and ugly, nothing goes as planned, i dont care how great you are at a particular martial art win or lose you will get hit.
With all due respect to all posters above, We always keep reminding our self and fellow practitioners to expect the unexpected and keep on training in various Martial Arts.

Nothing happens to anyone that s/he is not fitted by nature to bear.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:02 AM   #39
Ryan Seznee
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Brian Gillaspie wrote: View Post
I'm just curious how many dojos train for defending yourself when you are on the ground. If you do, how often do you train.

I know in a perfect world you should never end up on the ground but I know I am not always perfect....my wife reminds me of that quite often.
We train for it every day. One person has a Boken to simulate a katana and no one tries any BJJ or wrestling because that would be one of the best ways to get cut. In doing so, one realizes that the best way to move is determined by the situation, not the training you take before hand. How well does groundwork work when doing a 4 man randori? By the same token, one does not draw their blade and take an Aikido stance when dealing with a sniper 200 yards away.

One does Aikido in an Aikido class because it is the best way to deal with the treat before you. Every system is unique and complete for doing what it wants to do, so you can't improve Aikido by adding BJJ or wrestling any more than you could improve basket ball by adding ice skates.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:19 AM   #40
Flintstone
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Ryan Szesny wrote: View Post
Every system is unique and complete for doing what it wants to do, so you can't improve Aikido by adding BJJ or wrestling any more than you could improve basket ball by adding ice skates.
Comparing Budo and Sports is not the wisest argument here. Also, please take a look at the pictures featuring O Sensei doing newaza, shimewaza, etc...
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:41 AM   #41
Melchizedek
 
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Re: Ground Defense

http://www.youtube.com/user/03sankyu#p/f/26/_8jyGbgjTAA

Ground Defense (Humor)
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:24 AM   #42
DonMagee
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
IMO, there are several essential ground skills that should be learned by all, the clinch, escaping the mount, dealing with the guard, rear mount, and side control and standing up in base. You don't need to perfect every single pass, sweep, or even learn 101 submissions.

I am a BJJ guy, but for aikidoka and those wanting to learn SD from the ground, I modify the curriculum to teach how to recover our balance, stand back up, and escaping the positions so you can get back to your feet.

to be honest, alot of the Judo newaza and BJJ newaza is good stuff and makes for interesting practice, but is not entirely necessary to learn the fundamental skills if that is all you are really concerned with.
Exactly, I think I could teach someone what they 'need' to know about recovering from a failure that leads to the ground in about 3 months. However it's going to be up to them to train it with resistance once I'm gone. Like anything else, if you want to be good at it, you have to actually do it. But I know you already know that

I'm just going to leave it at that before I go on a tirade about how ridiculous self defense or rape defense classes are and how useless those kind of training programs are.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:24 AM   #43
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Comparing Budo and Sports is not the wisest argument here. Also, please take a look at the pictures featuring O Sensei doing newaza, shimewaza, etc...
Just because there are pictures of Osensei doing some newaza, doesn't mean that those pictures are a part of his true vision of Aikido.

I think Ueshiba had many different ideas about his system over the years. Those things ranged from the taking of lives on a battle field, to fighting thugs in the streets, to ending violence through love etc. and many many more that I am completely unaware of as well. Anyone claiming that they have Ueshiba's one true idea of what Aikido is has to at the very least answer the question- at what time was that his ideal.

You can't defeat multiple opponents on the ground. Multiple opponents were of real interest to Ueshiba. However Martial arts in general were of interest to Ueshiba, so he probably did ground fighting and enjoyed it.

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Old 12-22-2009, 12:37 PM   #44
Brian Gillaspie
 
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
We train for it every day. One person has a Boken to simulate a katana and no one tries any BJJ or wrestling because that would be one of the best ways to get cut. In doing so, one realizes that the best way to move is determined by the situation, not the training you take before hand. How well does groundwork work when doing a 4 man randori? By the same token, one does not draw their blade and take an Aikido stance when dealing with a sniper 200 yards away

One does Aikido in an Aikido class because it is the best way to deal with the treat before you. Every system is unique and complete for doing what it wants to do, so you can't improve Aikido by adding BJJ or wrestling any more than you could improve basket ball by adding ice skates.
I train in BJJ, and other arts, because I enjoy it and I am not trying to make Aikido something different than it is. However, I will not put a limitation on what aikido is and is not.

I do think if one of a person's purpose for training is for self defense then they should have some ground game. If I, and many others, sometimes trip or lose their balance just walking down the sidewalk then I can potentially end up on the ground in a physical altercation.

Being on the ground with 4 people attacking you is bad and so is standing and having 4 people attacking you. And I agree that everything depends on the situation. So in reality ice skates may help with basketball....if you are playing on ice.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:46 PM   #45
aikishihan
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Re: Ground Defense

The goal of Aiki is our Purpose.

The path to Aiki, is quite another reality.

Gather all the knowledge, skills and tools you can, to ensure that you make it through to your destination.

Respect all, scoff at nothing, and your just humility will prevail.

In Oneness,
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:02 PM   #46
Stormcrow34
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Re: Ground Defense

Thanks Mr. Takahashi.

Happy Holidays and peace to you and yours.

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 12-22-2009 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:34 PM   #47
RED
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
I agree with you Maggie, i love Aikido. It is an art and it is beautiful and that is why i practice it. However you yourself said that you are a martial artist. And true martial artist are prepared for all contingencies. And no offense but we all know that those rape self defense courses are not very good. But the handgun very effective though not very aiki in philosophy.
Nah, not very Aiki... but that was before my Aikido days lol

MM
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:09 PM   #48
RED
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I fully understand your perspective on it. I learned long ago that people train for a variety of reasons that differ from my own. As long as you know why you train and are comfortable with that, I wish you nothing but the best, but at the same time, if that's why you train then you shouldn't offer your opinion in a thread like this one. It's certainly your right to do so, but you shouldn't get upset when the "meatheads" respond to your perspective with their own. I doubt many of those people have any illusions of being a badass. They simply want to be more prepared than you want to be.
I digressed from my opinion the moment I relayed that my purposes for training Aikido was for Aikido's sake. So no argument here.

As far as the "meatheads"... I blocked the persons in questions when I found out they were stalking me through my dojo's website to get access to my personal contact info...creeeeepy!

MM
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:37 PM   #49
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I took rape defense for that reason... I'm pretty good with a hand gun too lol

I do Aikido because I'm in love with Aikido. It is more than just a hobby to me, and it definitely is more than a means of self defense. It is an art to me, its beautiful, and I'm in love with the art... I not a warrior, I'm a martial artist.

I sort of don't like a lot of people' s attitudes on the issue actually. Not you in particular, but there are some people about here sort of acting like meat heads, sort of jerking off about how they could beat some one in a fight and how bad ass they are....very Aiki!
Well, in the end, that was wat O' Sensei and his uchi deshi trained for. They were the kind of people who could beat someone in a fight. Some of them, like Gozo Shioda shihan, were badasses. They were people who tested what they learnt by picking fights. Martial art actually means the Art of War, so if you say that you're training a martial art, it's rather normal to assume that you are preparing yourself to be able to deal with a possible assailant.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:40 PM   #50
Flintstone
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Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
As far as the "meatheads"... I blocked the persons in questions when I found out they were stalking me through my dojo's website to get access to my personal contact info...creeeeepy!
Since when looking for information in a public website is considered "stalking"? Oh, yes. Since they don't agree with your opinions. That's the passive-aggressive behavior of the typical aikiflower.
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