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Old 12-21-2009, 09:12 AM   #26
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

...not to be antagonistic; but after all this Mike, I would literally love to hear your nuts-and-bolts explanation. No kidding.
-----------------------------------------------

Seriously: Merry Christmas guys. This is for fun; and it is a luxury.

It is an honour to read (all!) you guys.

Wishing you all health, happiness, a sound mind, spirit and a strong body to be able to continue in your training.

and if you do go battle royale; tape it.
vid or it didn't happen.
: ]

Josh
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:23 AM   #27
MM
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I just looked at it, Mark. I must be missing it... what do you see that is "going somewhere"? I see Doc Stier is using one of my drawings without attribution, but I think some of the comments about how things work are missing the mark. Why don't you give us *your* opinion of what's valuable, how it works, and so on? Seriously.

Mike
Hi Mike,

My opinion of what's valuable? I've barely begun training these internal skills, so In the RSF thread, people are posting about what they think is going on or how it works. That's valuable to me. Not posting back and forth bickering. That's not valuable, IMO.

If you think some of the comments about how things work are missing the mark, then posting here about why is valuable. Not posting back and forth bickering. That's not valuable, IMO.

If you find something in that video at RSF that you know is similar to what you've seen in some Japanese Martial art, that's valuable. Not posting back and forth bickering. (Is that phrase getting overly tired of reading? Think of the rest of the Aikiweb readers going through all the bickering posts.) That's not valuable, IMO.

I'm not picking on just one person, I'm saying quit the bickering to both of you. If either of you can't interact online without resorting to bickering, then please quit interacting.

I would have never known of the similarities in internal skills between the Chinese Martial Arts and the Japanese ones except for a few people. And two of them keep bickering online and it's getting old. I'm asking for both of you to keep it in check. Please.
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:28 AM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
...not to be antagonistic; but after all this Mike, I would literally love to hear your nuts-and-bolts explanation. No kidding.
-----------------------------------------------
If you think back, there were some very good discussions on how-to's for basics, using drawings, detailed explanations, a few years back. That was mainly Rob John and me. And then this "greatness" began to intrude and other people, including Ueshiba, became "amateurs". The process of "The Cross" (which is very limited and comes from Southern Shaolin) began to develop into "spiralling" and a host of other things, just as I predicted things *must* go, some years back.

Back in the nineties we saw a number of systems in CMA's suddenly start "revealing things that they'd known for years" after those same topics became public on the Neijia List (which is why the neijia-type forums became so restricted, aamof). What I'm doing now is enjoying watching a deja vu scenario play out in Aikido that played out before. I'd probably still contribute more "how-to" stuff, but once the personal shots started appearing a few years back, I figured I'd let it go and watch history replay itself.

Take it all with good humor; I do. This stuff is enlightening to watch because in some ways you're seeing a part of why not only Aikido but many other arts lose these skills or have such difficulty in gaining them.

Incidentally.... it's far better for everyone to join into these conversations than to wait for someone else to explain things. I'm always willing to help someone who is making an effort. Someone who is simply waiting for people to hand him info (sometimes they *demand* it!)... not so much.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:35 AM   #29
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I've barely begun training these internal skills, so In the RSF thread, people are posting about what they think is going on or how it works. That's valuable to me.
I asked you *what* was valuable, Mark. Think of it from my point of view.... if you find all that stuff that's being posted in the RSF thread "valuable", but I don't, then your view of valuable is different from mine, in that regard. So my question is why I should say anything when you're apparently confused about what is valuable and what is not.... see my point?

That's why if you want someone to offer some pointers, you need to step up and write some how-to's and show that you're thinking and not just waiting for a handout.

Incidentally, most of that stuff on RSF is guys impressing each other with buzzwords; it's not useful "how-to" information. Go through each post and read it carefully for any "how-to" information while comparing what is said in terms of buzzwords, veiled hints of secret knowledge, and so forth. You'll see what I mean.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:48 AM   #30
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
As I've said many times, there are a number of variants: some good, some not so good, some complete, some not so complete. I've also said many times that the internet forays are meant to get basics out there... period. Since you've debriefed a few people who have been to my workshops (too bad, Joel, and others), you're aware that there is more than what I've posted ... and there's a lot more than I've shown at workshops, too. Your swipe is pointless, since you're personally aware of these things.

"Posturing"? Pooh. No person on the internet brags about himself as much as you do. If nothing else, you've cut yourself off from a number of sources of information with your egocentricity. So what's your belief... that you already know everything? If you do, I guess you're safe in alienating as many potential sources of information as you have by the things you've said about people in your posts about yourself.

Think about this. The main reason strife and contention initiates on various forums is because people with wannabe or 'established' credentials react defensively when they feel that there is a challenge to their status. I see you doing just that. Whether it's talk about "koryu", or "you have to come to my school because I can't discuss basics in public", or whatever, these are just variants of the old pecking-order psychology. The old neijia list was anomalous in that if someone entered the discussion with a claim (or if a current list-member made a claim), the discussion went to "how does it work", not into a defense of position/status. And the idea that someone in any school, koryu, whatever, can't even discuss basics is fatuous.... only a neophyte would use such an excuse when it becomes obvious that the basics are known by many people.

So the big difference between you and me is that I don't particularly care about the topic other than as an interesting discussion that leads toward further progress; you appear to be establishing a typical pecking-order with you on top and trivializing comments made about anyone you feel threatened by. That's fine, Dan, but leave me out of your ill-disguised expectations.

There are a couple of people that have an interest in keeping a file on how much you can't answer over the last 5 years, how often you have gone silent over the years when a question is asked that you can't answer, how often you have gone back and literally pulled off your posts from forums when you've become embarrassed, and so on. You might take the time to review some of your historical comments and actions and statements about I.S. and understand that you can't reinvent your expertise with each new thread, Dan. There are archives to consider.

Lastly, each time I ask you to explain something, I'm doing so from a public claim that you've made and I take you at your word that you're an expert. So, the next time I ask you a functional "how-to" question, think about your choices: you can either try to start yet another diversionary attack against me personally or you can shut me down with your expertise, which of course must be far higher than my "amateur" level, right? Your inability to answer (or to answer correctly in a number of cases) stands out like a beacon.

Mike Sigman
Mike where is the functional how to in this? Can you explain to me the the principle of the ground path when you make personal attacks at Dan?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:05 AM   #31
gregstec
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post

I'm not picking on just one person, I'm saying quit the bickering to both of you. If either of you can't interact online without resorting to bickering, then please quit interacting.
IMO. I think the bickering has a certain perverse value in a 'National Enquirer' sort of way - kind of like a soap opera appeal

Who out there is keeping the cheap shot score?

Is there a fight promoter in the house? maybe we can get a Vegas venue and have the MMA match of the year in MIke S vs. Dan H - any odds anyone? That would be a hoot

On the serious side, I have immense respect for both parties and believe that they have more similarities than they do differences. Going forward, I think that the first one to reach out with a big internet hug to the other is the winner in my book (sorry about that visual to those with a squeamish stomach )

It's the holidays guys - chill out a bit and let's have some fun

best regards to all
Greg
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:21 AM   #32
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If you think back, there were some very good discussions on how-to's for basics, using drawings, detailed explanations, a few years back. That was mainly Rob John and me. And then this "greatness" began to intrude and other people, including Ueshiba, became "amateurs". The process of "The Cross" (which is very limited and comes from Southern Shaolin) began to develop into "spiralling" and a host of other things, just as I predicted things *must* go, some years back.
During which- through phone discussion with Rob and on-line postings I made Rob asked to borrow one of my training examples of using the cross (the drive shaft with the peg) and posts it -with credit to me- right here in the training section.
Also during which I was talking with Rob- and writting before he ever met you about spiral energy and how it is essential for actual fighting with IP/ aiki.
Then after I saw the published training vid on Shiko and read the hand outs I talked with him about carrying the weight across the body and wrote about it detail on E-budo

You have a very warped sense of reality and what went on and when as well as a meglomeniacal sense of owning information.
Such as you stating you coined this and that phrase -even telling me you coined "heavy hands" a term that has been used in boxing for decades.
FWIW, you can read about sprial energy in DR from DR teachers on Aikido Journal.
Sorry to burst your bubble about being the in resident expert on everything internal.

Quote:
Incidentally.... it's far better for everyone to join into these conversations than to wait for someone else to explain things. I'm always willing to help someone who is making an effort. Someone who is simply waiting for people to hand him info (sometimes they *demand* it!)... not so much.
No this is where you opt out and say nothing or offer more baby step nonsense like your famous post on breathing. With people asking for breath power exercises and you told them to breath in and relax. I called you on that BS then and there.
This isn't a real discussion Mark and never has been.
At least I finally got him to admit...after pages of insults and innuendo...that I was right along in posting that his stuff is only basics.
See how easy that was instead of all the huff and puff.
Dan
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:37 AM   #33
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
IMO. I think the bickering has a certain perverse value in a 'National Enquirer' sort of way - kind of like a soap opera appeal

Who out there is keeping the cheap shot score?

Is there a fight promoter in the house? maybe we can get a Vegas venue and have the MMA match of the year in MIke S vs. Dan H - any odds anyone? That would be a hoot

On the serious side, I have immense respect for both parties and believe that they have more similarities than they do differences. Going forward, I think that the first one to reach out with a big internet hug to the other is the winner in my book (sorry about that visual to those with a squeamish stomach )

It's the holidays guys - chill out a bit and let's have some fun

best regards to all
Greg
That's all well and good Greg, I am well aware of the spread the guilt around idea.
Lets review. Go back and find me who was the one to start calling me a fraud in public, and then keep after it. Who got pursued for information then chastised for not giving it and told I didn't know what I was talking about. Hell just read the posts above.
Its all a ploy he uses. He wrote about it on the Neijia list and E-budo. Its all an act, a lie, set up to get people to talk and spill information by his own admission!
Lets call it for what it really is and stop being polite. I got worse from him in some very serious private letters. These are things he is known for by the way and why he has been banned from places.

You know me and know I have a hard time ever being serious; if I'm talking I'm joking right? Now imagine me pissed-off. I don't ever want to be in the same room with this guy.
I can understand Mikes process -an ICMA guy thinking his arts are all that and then finding out there is a lot of it in the JMA as well. I just cannot imagine telling everyone they're full of it to get the information. There are nicer ways to get information that work quite well.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-21-2009 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:14 AM   #34
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Just having spoken off line with a few people I think it is best that Mike and I simply avoid each other. It does nothing to forward the discussion and throws one big wet blanket on something which is becoming near and dear to them in their own training.
Not the least of which is there are guys who like us both and they hate to see this keep happening.
So happy holidays to one and all.
Dan
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:24 AM   #35
gregstec
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Just having spoken off line with a few people I think it is best that Mike and I simply avoid each other. It does nothing to forward the discussion and throws one big wet blanket on something which is becoming near and dear to them in their own training.
Not the least of which is there are guys who like us both and they hate to see this keep happening.
So happy holidays to one and all.
Dan
Overall, this appears to be as close to an 'internet hug' as can be expected concerning this issue - maybe not directly to Mike, but at least to the rest of us - sounds like a winner to me

Greg
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:38 AM   #36
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No this is where you opt out and say nothing or offer more baby step nonsense like your famous post on breathing. With people asking for breath power exercises and you told them to breath in and relax.
Show me the famous quote. I've never said that.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-21-2009, 01:36 PM   #37
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Show me the famous quote. I've never said that.

Mike Sigman
Give it up, Mike. You won't get a quote, much less a context.

You will discover an agenda, however..., glad-handed though it may be.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:33 PM   #38
MM
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I asked you *what* was valuable, Mark. Think of it from my point of view.... if you find all that stuff that's being posted in the RSF thread "valuable", but I don't, then your view of valuable is different from mine, in that regard. So my question is why I should say anything when you're apparently confused about what is valuable and what is not.... see my point?

That's why if you want someone to offer some pointers, you need to step up and write some how-to's and show that you're thinking and not just waiting for a handout.

Incidentally, most of that stuff on RSF is guys impressing each other with buzzwords; it's not useful "how-to" information. Go through each post and read it carefully for any "how-to" information while comparing what is said in terms of buzzwords, veiled hints of secret knowledge, and so forth. You'll see what I mean.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Well, let me take portions and give you the opportunity to show where it misses the mark or you don't find it valuable and why.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I would tend to agree about the knee winding translation. but he might be showing some deeper things (I don't know Chinese).
Twining the knees is indicative of the hips being tied to them, (this is how most people move, and it is more pronounced in western fighters)all in all it's something which I would avoid. Coiling or winding is an accurate statement but mores the point is what is coiling from where. I think it's very important to understand that the legs are coiling and the feet are stable and grab the earth. The feet rock most often because the knees pull them out of line. and its the hips that pull the kness out of line. The bones of the legs need to remain stable and the muscles are pulled coiling up and opening on one side and coiling and winding down on the other. But the bones stay straight and therefore the feet are stable. If anything the knees may go back and forth (like in and out from front to back) but never are they pulled with the coiling as to sway side to side with the hips. Twining the knees weakens the peng and in training it also can hurt the knees over time. Proper coiling makes VERY strong and stable knees that function independant from the hips. they are held stable by opposing spirals from the feet up through the kua drawn by the dantian, turned by the waist and supported be the lower back (with the psoas). Trainng this way stabilizies the entire chain, so walking and being "rocked" by uneven terrain (like he comically tries to demonstrate at the end when he is mimicing a stumble) is less likely.
That pretty much goes into some detail on spirals and windings through the legs and to watch for the knees in particular. Granted, it doesn't give a specific "how-to" but then again, most would agree IHTBF to be trained.

If you disagree, where would that be? Why? I can't see it to be the spiral portion because here, you state:

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The process of "The Cross" (which is very limited and comes from Southern Shaolin) began to develop into "spiralling" and a host of other things, just as I predicted things *must* go, some years back.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
I took that to mean you know about spiraling. So, I'm confused as to where you think things miss the mark.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
And then this "greatness" began to intrude and other people, including Ueshiba, became "amateurs".
FWIW

Mike Sigman
Even you have trivialized Ueshiba's knowledge and skills, Mike. And you've readjusted your views of what he knew over the years.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
And a last thing to think of: It's unclear how much of the complete hara/dantien usage that Ueshiba had. My opinion of what he knew has grown over the last 4-5 years.

Best.

Mike
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Watching the pattern of my speculations/observations about Aikido and I.S. over the years, the trend is that I have to amend to allow that Ueshiba, Tohei, and a few others new more than I originally estimated, but less that "full banana" level of some of the so-called "internal martial arts". Aikido, as done by Ueshiba, appears to be an art that uses "neijin" (internal strength) and "neigongs" (internal exercises via misogi, breathing techniques, etc.), but it is not one of the "neijia" (internal family of martial arts) because it doesn't have the full-blown Six Harmonies movement.... but there are caveats too complicated to go into on this forum.
FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:58 PM   #39
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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That pretty much goes into some detail on spirals and windings through the legs and to watch for the knees in particular. Granted, it doesn't give a specific "how-to" but then again, most would agree IHTBF to be trained.
Right... it doesn't go into any details on "how to". That's the main point, Mark. Also, that quote describes something that could be called "spiralling", but it doesn't describe classical spiralling at all.
Quote:
If you disagree, where would that be? Why?
Honestly, think back to how much stuff you read about in posts in the past about how to do I.S. stuff. At a certain level at least the written description can give people an academic idea of in which direction to look/think. Past that elementary level, though, it's pretty hard to describe something without showing it first. Conversely, people who try to learn things (figure them out) from descriptions almost always wind up doing something wrong (hasn't that been your experience, too?). So where I disagree is fairly easy to show but difficult to explain in writing. What I've been doing is making sure that people who are progressing nicely learn how to do these things and so they'll be available to show them to a wider audience pretty soon (plus I'm sure a number of them will get beyond what I've been able to do).
Quote:
I took that to mean you know about spiraling. So, I'm confused as to where you think things miss the mark.
A lot of people think they know what spiralling is, Mark. I run into people all the time who "teach spiralling". You see what a mess that discussion can be. Look at how many people on AikiWeb said just a few years ago that they teach ki/kokyu skills.
Quote:
Even you have trivialized Ueshiba's knowledge and skills, Mike.
I didn't trivialize his skills in that quote you supplied. I simply said that it's unclear how much dantien usage he had. That's not a trivialization at all, since most of the Japanese martial arts appear to have a southern Shaolin origin (look at their practice method similarities) and southern Shaolin (Nanquan) uses a different approach than the so-called "neijia" arts which use a lot of dantien control. As I've stated a number of times, the differences between those two do not mean better or worse. My opinion rising on Ueshiba's level actually has nothing to do with your statement. So I assume you must mean some other word than "trivialize", unless you were just doing a reach for some sort of equivalency to toss back at me? BTW... why haven't you been publicly asking Dan all these questions?
Quote:
And you've readjusted your views of what he knew over the years.
Let's be clear, Mark. You have posted a number of posts about Ueshiba that diminish his role in Aikido. The comment of mine you quoted doesn't diminish but simply states something is unclear. My readjustment of Ueshiba's skills is part of an ongoing attempt to see what he knew, not an attempt to make him pale in comparison with Daito Ryu or anything else.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:27 PM   #40
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

BTW, Mark, let me re-emphasize a point. If *you* (or someone else) want a discussion to progress about a topic, why not post your own understanding? As I noted before, too often I see posts from someone who wants to start a discussion or get casual information, but that sort of approach has never really inspired me to offer much. The person who is really working on something must have some input or starting impression based on their own work, so they should have something to put into the discussion. I've contributed a lot of discussions over the years (note again the humorous part that Gary Stier used one of my illustrations on RSF as part of the discussion you think is so good) that turned out to be nothing more than satisfying someone's afternoon whimsical thought and which had nothing to do with anything that they're really working on. It sort of gets tiring, after a number of years of it.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-21-2009, 05:06 PM   #41
phitruong
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

"The bones of the legs need to remain stable and the muscles are pulled coiling up and opening on one side and coiling and winding down on the other. But the bones stay straight and therefore the feet are stable. If anything the knees may go back and forth (like in and out from front to back) but never are they pulled with the coiling as to sway side to side with the hips."

pull out the quote. isn't this the same as sanchin stand, i.e. walk like a duck? question though, if the coiling/winding goes up one side and goes down the other side, where is the middle, where the up and down meet? wouldn't the up on one side then down the other side creates a loop, with your body and the earth as two opposite poles? just thinking out loud.

you know, you guys can bicker all you want about who is the expert and so on; however, it's a common knowledge that Asian DNA has the decoder algorithm for IS.
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:03 PM   #42
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
[snip]
you know, you guys can bicker all you want about who is the expert and so on; however, it's a common knowledge that Asian DNA has the decoder algorithm for IS.
They've got the knees for it too.
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:35 AM   #43
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

I understood there to be a difference between peng and peng jing ('the jing'), so am somewhat confused as to the classification of chansi-jin as 'the jing'. Always thought that meant 'reeling energy', which - whilst the hallmark of Chen style - wasn't the hallmark of IS.
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:53 AM   #44
MM
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Let's be clear, Mark. You have posted a number of posts about Ueshiba that diminish his role in Aikido.
As you have said, "Show me the famous quote. I've never said that."
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:26 AM   #45
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
I understood there to be a difference between peng and peng jing ('the jing'), so am somewhat confused as to the classification of chansi-jin as 'the jing'. Always thought that meant 'reeling energy', which - whilst the hallmark of Chen style - wasn't the hallmark of IS.
There is no such classification. There were other statements of differentiation as well; to support that the classics were mistinterpreted and misunderstood by other prevous masters. Like their comments about double-weighting, it's deliberate - and meant to be controversial.
In perspective-have you ever been in a room with a master level teacher of the JMA, who states that other Master class teachers of a single style got it wrong?
Dan
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:52 AM   #46
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
As you have said, "Show me the famous quote. I've never said that."
Er... you've never said what? I didn't give a quote for you to ask for, so that's a bizarre statement to ask for the quote. Do you mean an example of one of the numerous posts where you've talked about how Ueshiba owed everything to Takeda.... posts which have been mentioned a number of times, as you well know? Any particular flavor you want? What you started doing after those posts was say that they weren't meant to trivialize and that you really respected Ueshiba, yada, yada, but that doesn't change the fact that you have made a number of them and we all know it. Of course, you'll then want to discuss whether you were really trivializing Ueshiba, so if that's the sort of discussion you want, start a thread that says "I've never trivialized Ueshiba" and let's see how many people can contribute various posts of your, without derailing this thread.

Mike
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:09 AM   #47
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There is no such classification.
Since your vague assertion is sloppy with its pronouns, let me ask, to be clear: are you saying that there is no difference between peng and peng jing as descriptors in Taijiquan? If that's what you're saying, I can quote from several books to show you that "peng" is used to indicate a directive jin while peng jing is used within Taiji to indicate the basic neijin itself. What is your assertion?

BTW.... don't forget that you have a number of questions in the thread that you haven't been able to answer yet.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:22 AM   #48
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

That's not what I meant.
You have avoided real answers to both Mark's and Josh's questions and not answered points in several of my posts.
Don't bother.

Mark,
Did you actually expect an answer? He is not going to answer, he can't answer. He sidesteps direct and truly informative answers to questions of his own statements "That this or that person is wrong or partally right but there is something deeper, or missing" and yet he never offers clear and detailed amplification and answers.
It's a cat and mouse game he plays with people..
Call him on it and he states, "Well I could help but_____________insert reason of the day, then he goes on to misrepresent why others don't answer.

Stop and consider, is it possible to be so informed of such a wide ranging topic encompassing many arts and then have real ability in all of them?
Or is it just havng enough outsider information you can quote to BS your way around others who don't. The same can be said for a couple of guys I know who are extremely, well read in various JMA, but....

Again, I encourage people to.go meet the real master level guys and cross-hands with them.
Happy holidays
Dan
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:32 AM   #49
MM
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Er... you've never said what? I didn't give a quote for you to ask for, so that's a bizarre statement to ask for the quote. Do you mean an example of one of the numerous posts where you've talked about how Ueshiba owed everything to Takeda.... posts which have been mentioned a number of times, as you well know? Any particular flavor you want? What you started doing after those posts was say that they weren't meant to trivialize and that you really respected Ueshiba, yada, yada, but that doesn't change the fact that you have made a number of them and we all know it. Of course, you'll then want to discuss whether you were really trivializing Ueshiba, so if that's the sort of discussion you want, start a thread that says "I've never trivialized Ueshiba" and let's see how many people can contribute various posts of your, without derailing this thread.

Mike
Um, Ueshiba does owe his martial skills to Takeda. That's fact. Just as Sagawa owed his martial skills to Takeda. You might still be searching for that holy grail of the Chinese connection via Deguchi, but it's pretty obvious to anyone doing the in depth research in Daito ryu where Ueshiba got his martial skills. Where aiki came from. That would be Takeda. Fact. And aiki isn't a trivial matter at all. It's what gave Ueshiba the base to branch off into the spiritual side of things.

But I didn't say Ueshiba owed everything to Takeda. I've stated numerous times Ueshiba had a spiritual side. I've stated numerous times that Ueshiba created something new in aikido, but that in video he's still seen doing Daito ryu techniques. It's all fact for anyone to see. Doesn't trivialize what Ueshiba had done. And unlike you, I always knew he had the "skills". I've never had to readjust my view of Ueshiba's skills. Quite a few people have had to readjust their views of Daito ryu and Aikido because of certain people being able to use Takeda's aiki in a live environment. Huh. Isn't that a kicker.

Way too off topic for me. I'll leave things at that.
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:40 AM   #50
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That's not what I meant.
You have avoided real answers to both Mark's and Josh's questions and not answered points in several of my posts.
Don't bother.
Hey, I'm quite happy to start a separate thread and begin filling it up with posts from both you and Mark (it will be a big number, total) that spend time on trivializing Ueshiba. I'll start today.

"Answering peoples' questions" is quite different from "making a bold, wrong assertion and then refusing to back it up with facts". I'm not under any compulsion to answer questions at whim, but if I'm factually challenged on a statement I publicly made, I answer it. When you're challenged on off the cuff and incorrect assertions that you can't support, you go quiet.

I'll start a thread this afternoon and start filling it up with posts from you and Mark that spend a lot of time trivializing Ueshiba. Anyone want to start a raffle on how many posts the total will be? I'll shoot from the hip and place my guess at the total for Dan and Mark will be 30. Other guesses?

I'll start the thread in Open Discussions.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
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