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Old 12-18-2009, 09:48 AM   #1
MM
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Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Over at the Rum Soaked Fist (RSF) forum, there's a thread discussing a Chinese teacher and how he's showing internal skills. Worth reading since it touches upon Daito ryu methods, also.

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7380
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Old 12-18-2009, 10:30 AM   #2
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Mark, Dan,
That is gold. Thank you.
Josh
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:03 PM   #3
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

The man in the video is Chen taijiquan teacher Li Chugong, a long time student of Hong Junsheng.

Here is a clip of him demonstrating the jin in the yilu (first routine) of Hong's line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glp1ZyERe_E

Allan
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:04 PM   #4
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

I realize that there will be another of the many archived "sudden silence when telling questions are asked" answers, but let's take this comment by Dan Harden:

Quote:
You also might want to consider that Hong considers peng to be chansi-jin, "the one jin" in the first place, and not rooting or bouncing out with the dantien or the Sigman ground path model; it's more inclusive and complex than a single path.
So, Dan, since you're the expert and you're using my name to establish your own bona fides (a very traditional keyboard tactic that goes back to the 1990's, if anyone wants to check various archives), how does "groundpath" work in relation to this comment from the Taiji classical literature:

"The root is in the feet, Jin is generated from the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed through the hands and fingers. From the feet to the legs to the waist must be integrated with one unified Qi."

Could you give us your explanation of what "the one jin" is (a term that I introduced as far back as the 1990's)? Can you for just once explain in definitive terms what the factual problem is, rather than just throw my name out on BS public forums? At least on the old Neijia List we had the habit of explaining the issues rather than just trying to trivialize via assertion, self-proclamation, and so on.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:44 PM   #5
rob_liberti
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

For the love of god, give it a rest.

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:48 PM   #6
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Sorry... I didn't bring my name up. On the other hand, looking at some of your old posts................................. there's a sort of viciousness that seems to be making a resurgence. How about simple, straight replies?

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-19-2009, 10:01 PM   #7
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Sorry... I didn't bring my name up. On the other hand, looking at some of your old posts................................. there's a sort of viciousness that seems to be making a resurgence. How about simple, straight replies?

Mike Sigman
Mike you told me on your own forum that you should stick to functional, how-to's, suggesting also that we should even if we are being personally attacked, but it looks like you can't even follow your own advice. Can you tell me where the functional/how-to is in this?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 12-19-2009, 10:04 PM   #8
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Mike you told me on your own forum that you should stick to functional, how-to's, suggesting also that we should even if we are being personally attacked, but it looks like you can't even follow your own advice. Can you tell me where the functional/how-to is in this?
Again... my name was brought up, so I asked for a how to. Unless, of course, you can provide the how-to, Lorel? I've asked you for how-to's in the past, if you remember.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-19-2009, 10:05 PM   #9
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

I'll spread it out.... Dan, Liberti, Lorel... can you provide a good how-to description of the one jin?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-19-2009, 10:08 PM   #10
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Again... my name was brought up, so I asked for a how to. Unless, of course, you can provide the how-to, Lorel? I've asked you for how-to's in the past, if you remember.

Mike Sigman
No you didn't Mike. You replied to Rob Liberti not asking for a functional-how to, but suggesting that his 'viciousness' from old posts' have made a 'resurgence'. Can you explain to me the 'functional how-to' in this?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 12-20-2009, 02:16 AM   #11
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So, Dan, since you're the expert and you're using my name to establish your own bona fides (a very traditional keyboard tactic that goes back to the 1990's, if anyone wants to check various archives),

How does "groundpath" work in relation to this comment from the Taiji classical literature:
"The root is in the feet, Jin is generated from the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed through the hands and fingers. From the feet to the legs to the waist must be integrated with one unified Qi."
Could you give us your explanation of what "the one jin" is (a term that I introduced as far back as the 1990's)? Can you for just once explain in definitive terms what the factual problem is, rather than just throw my name out on BS public forums? At least on the old Neijia List we had the habit of explaining the issues rather than just trying to trivialize via assertion, self-proclamation, and so on.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
*Note*
a. I don't respond to yu for the simple reason that your passive / agressive baiting nonsense is sophmoric, and I have no interest in your opinions on IP/ aiki. Why would I need or want to have a discussion with you?

b. Instead of peppering all of your posts to me with personal digs and ugly inuendo- then playing the fauning "victim" when I reply to you in a more forthright, honest and direct manner, why don't you follow your own advice-stick to the topic. Your'e a grown man Mike, step up and state your points.

c. This idea of yours that using your name will boost someones "standing" reveals a rather ugly and smug view of yourself, Mike.
I don't even think in those terms.

The topic
So...I'm an "expert" now because I offered some advice on a forum, interesting.
I was quoting Hong's position.This is what I said:
Quote:
You also might want to consider that Hong considers peng to be chansi-jin, "the one jin" in the first place, and not rooting or bouncing out with the dantien or the Sigman ground path model; it's more inclusive and complex than a single path.
For the most part the advice you have offered here and elsewhere continues to be very limited baby step stuff, Mike; mostly focused on breathing and simple pushing. The "translation" I offered on that thread on RSF (while still basic) is more in-depth than anything I have ever read from you...anywhere. Which might explain why you are always asking me to talk about how I train.

Since you disagree with him, and he wrote it, and some of his students have explained it- why don't you try explaining how a real expert like Hong, is so off-base.
Dan
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:09 AM   #12
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
[BThe "translation" I offered on that thread on RSF (while still basic) is more in-depth than anything I have ever read from you...anywhere. Which might explain why you are always asking me to talk about how I train.
Well, you have your opinion about your knowledge and skills, Dan. Each to his own. Here's what you said, using my name gratuitously:

Quote:
You also might want to consider that Hong considers peng to be chansi-jin, "the one jin" in the first place, and not rooting or bouncing out with the dantien or the Sigman ground path model; it's more inclusive and complex than a single path. [/quote] Obviously Hong didn't use my name, so you've indicated an opinion (via your assertion) about "chansi-jin", telling us that Hong considers chansi-jin (the reeling-silk jin/skill) to be the "one jin". The problem is that the core/one jin in Chen's taiji is "peng jin", which is there name for the neijin. The groundpath is, as I pointed out in my quote, the basic jin that goes from the foot, is controlled by the waist, and expressed by the hand. Hong knows that. The core variant of neijin/pengjin that the Chens style uses is chansi-jin, but it is not the core/peng jin.

Since you made an assertion about what Hong believes and tossed my name into the pot, I asked you to explain. I doubt seriously that Hong or his people need you making misstatements/misunderstandings about what Hong knows. But I guarantee you that Hong understands that chansi-jin is simply an offshoot of the neijin. Anyone with basic knowledge knows that.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:11 AM   #13
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
[BThe "translation" I offered on that thread on RSF (while still basic) is more in-depth than anything I have ever read from you...anywhere. Which might explain why you are always asking me to talk about how I train.
Well, you have your opinion about your knowledge and skills, Dan. Each to his own. Here's what you said, using my name gratuitously:

Quote:
You also might want to consider that Hong considers peng to be chansi-jin, "the one jin" in the first place, and not rooting or bouncing out with the dantien or the Sigman ground path model; it's more inclusive and complex than a single path.
Obviously Hong didn't use my name, so you've indicated an opinion (via your assertion) about "chansi-jin", telling us that Hong considers chansi-jin (the reeling-silk jin/skill) to be the "one jin". The problem is that the core/one jin in Chen's taiji is "peng jin", which is their name for the neijin. The groundpath is, as I pointed out in my quote, the basic jin that goes from the foot, is controlled by the waist, and expressed by the hand. Hong knows that. The core variant of neijin/pengjin that the Chens style uses is chansi-jin, but it is not the core/peng jin.

Since you made an assertion about what Hong believes and tossed my name into the pot, I asked you to explain. I doubt seriously that Hong or his people need you making misstatements/misunderstandings about what Hong knows. But I guarantee you that Hong understands that chansi-jin is simply an offshoot of the neijin. Anyone with basic knowledge knows that.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:00 AM   #14
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
No you didn't Mike. You replied to Rob Liberti not asking for a functional-how to, but suggesting that his 'viciousness' from old posts' have made a 'resurgence'. Can you explain to me the 'functional how-to' in this?
Hi mike. can you reply to this?

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Old 12-20-2009, 11:20 AM   #15
stan baker
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Hi Mike,
Who is the real expert that we can ask, who are you referring to.

stan
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:21 AM   #16
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, you have your opinion ...
Since you made an assertion about what Hong believes and tossed my name into the pot, I asked you to explain. I doubt seriously that Hong or his people need you making misstatements/misunderstandings about what Hong knows. But I guarantee you that Hong understands that chansi-jin is simply an offshoot of the neijin. Anyone with basic knowledge knows that.
FWIW
Mike
I still haven't offered an opinion, and you can "guarantee" nothing-you're not qualified.
I offered a description of someone else, coupled with what has been explained by a couple of his top people (which for some strange reason lined up with what I later read of Hong's stated view). By their own deliberate choice- it differentiated itself from any discussion of a single path -into a duality that must exist at all times-as one. It's their interpretation; your opinion, or mine was neither asked for, or required.

Attempting to disqualify anything that doesn't agree with your own limited understanding as an "outsider," is a dicey game. I don't agree with everything I read, hear and feel-particularly the results of what it did for some people, but that's different from a presumption of knowing what every master level teacher of the ICMA thinks, believes, interprets and teaches within their own lineage.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-20-2009 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 12-20-2009, 01:02 PM   #17
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I still haven't offered an opinion, and you can "guarantee" nothing-you're not qualified.
Always the personal shots, Dan. No answers; personal shots. I just laid it out for you, direct from the Taiji classical literature that everyone uses: The jin that starts from the feet, is controlled by the waist and is expressed in the fingers. That's the basis. If you want to pretend that you know more about how that applies to reeling-silk, go for it. If all you can do is cheapshot anyone and everyone as not being as great as you, it gets the discussions nowhere. Remember the disgusted posts from people over the years about how all your posts seem to be advertisements for Dan Harden's greatness? You haven't changed. If you have any knowledge, try showing it by debating a point rather than trivializing everyone.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-20-2009, 01:19 PM   #18
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

The jin that starts from the feet, is controlled by the waist and is expressed in the fingers

Incidentally, that very well known classical statement is not just unique to Taiji; variations are found in a number of arts. It is the path from the ground to the hands. What I call the "groundpath". The people who don't understand the "groundpath" don't understand the basics of I.S. more than superficially. It's worth it to note how often someone puts his foot into it by belittling the idea of the oh-so-obvious term "groundpath". Granted it's not a Chinese term like neijin or pengjin... but it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Even though Chen Xiaowang's English is limited, he refers to the one jin that goes from the point of contact to the ground.

So in line with the discussion topic about similarities in I.S. between CMA's and Japanese MA's, someone give me an example of where Tohei, Ueshiba, etc., were standing against a push or pull and *not* using a groundpath.

Moving with a groundpath/jin? Linear movement is called "chou ssujin" (pulling silk). Spiralling movement is called "chanssujin" (reeling silk). They are both built from the static one-jin of the groundpath.

There it is and no one can logically argue it, so probably the conversation will go back to the personal.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-20-2009, 01:34 PM   #19
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Always the personal shots, Dan. No answers; personal shots.
Who gave the cheap shots Mike?
Let's examine that -including the one above- and let everyone decide.
I stated a topic related and accurate comment on another board:
Quote:
You also might want to consider that Hong considers peng to be chansi-jin, "the one jin" in the first place, and not rooting or bouncing out with the dantien or the Sigman ground path model; it's more inclusive and complex than a single path.
It was a neutral statement that highlighted your (self admitted and agreed to) view for comparison.
To which I received (bold notations added by me):

Quote:
I realize that there will be another of the many archived "sudden silence when telling questions are asked" answers, (Cheap shot 1) but let's take this comment by Dan Harden:

So, Dan, since you're the expert(Cheap shot 2) and you're using my name to establish your own bona fides (a very traditional keyboard tactic that goes back to the 1990's,(Cheap shot 3) if anyone wants to check various archives), how does "groundpath" work in relation to this comment from the Taiji classical literature:

"The root is in the feet, Jin is generated from the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed through the hands and fingers. From the feet to the legs to the waist must be integrated with one unified Qi."

Could you give us your explanation of what "the one jin" is (a term that I introduced as far back as the 1990's)? Can you for just once explain in definitive terms what the factual problem is, rather than just throw my name out on BS public forums?(Cheap shot 4) At least on the old Neijia List we had the habit of explaining the issues rather than just trying to trivialize via assertion, self-proclamation, (Cheap shot 5)and so on.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Stop guaranteeing things you are not qualifed to address and I'll stop reminding you of that fact.

Quote:
I just laid it out for you, direct from the Taiji classical literature that everyone uses:
And I just laid it out for you what i read, was told and shown.

Quote:
The jin that starts from the feet, is controlled by the waist and is expressed in the fingers.
That can exist in a duel form at the same time.

Quote:
That's the basis. If you want to pretend that you know more about how that applies to reeling-silk, go for it (cheap shot 6).
I'm not the one pretending to know the basis for all that is internal-you are.

Quote:
If you have any knowledge, try showing it by debating a point rather than trivializing everyone
.
I do it often, just not with you. Talking with you is a waste of my time that I enjoy occasionally- like today on a beautiful snowing day here in New England.
Quote:
If all you can do is cheapshot anyone and everyone as not being as great as you, it gets the discussions nowhere.
(Cheap shot 7) and totally off topic context. I didn't discuss me at all.

Remember the disgusted posts from people over the years about how all your posts seem to be advertisements for Dan Harden's greatness? (cheap shot 8)
You haven't changed. If you have any knowledge, try showing it by debating a point rather than trivializing everyone. (cheap shot 9)

Again, do you think you are capable of making a post and not personally attacking me with this passive / agressive nonsense and then playing "the sensitive victim" when I respond to it in a very direct manner?
Good luck in your search
Dan
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Old 12-20-2009, 01:43 PM   #20
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The jin that starts from the feet, is controlled by the waist and is expressed in the fingers

Incidentally, that very well known classical statement is not just unique to Taiji; variations are found in a number of arts. It is the path from the ground to the hands. What I call the "groundpath". The people who don't understand the "groundpath" don't understand the basics of I.S. more than superficially. It's worth it to note how often someone puts his foot into it by belittling the idea of the oh-so-obvious term "groundpath". Granted it's not a Chinese term like neijin or pengjin... but it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Even though Chen Xiaowang's English is limited, he refers to the one jin that goes from the point of contact to the ground.

So in line with the discussion topic about similarities in I.S. between CMA's and Japanese MA's, someone give me an example of where Tohei, Ueshiba, etc., were standing against a push or pull and *not* using a groundpath.

Moving with a groundpath/jin? Linear movement is called "chou ssujin" (pulling silk). Spiralling movement is called "chanssujin" (reeling silk). They are both built from the static one-jin of the groundpath.

There it is and no one can logically argue it, so probably the conversation will go back to the personal.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Well, I will conitnue to point out to people the questionable veracity of an amateur disqualifying everyone's view that doesn't line up with his.
The "ground path" is your term not theirs. Although it's not bad; it is simplistic in it's scope and what it can mean (sort of like Tohei's).
The use of a single ground path instead of the duality in the body at the same time is and has been disputed by men far more accomplished than you or I.
Again I advise people to dismiss the arguing of morons on the net and go pursue the real experts. IP/aiki is much more in depth than what you are going to find in Aikido or those who want you to focus on breath power and pushing or even Tohei's own limited understanding.
And there are methods that can be used for "actual fighting" and all that entails, though it apears many just are not capable of doing or teaching those aspects.
If you want it-it's there to discover.
Good luck in your search
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-20-2009 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 12-20-2009, 02:07 PM   #21
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well, I will conitnue to point out to people the questionable veracity of an amateur disqualifying everyone's view that doesn't line up with his.
Holy smoke.... "amateur"? You're the one that wanted to come visit me... I didn't want to come visit you.
Quote:
The "ground path" is your term not theirs. Although it's not bad; it is simplistic in it's scope and what it can mean (sort of like Tohei's).
The use of a single ground path instead of the duality in the body at the same time is and has been disputed by men far more accomplished than you or I.
Oh wait.... do you mean the ground + weight paths that I have discussed many times over the years and which is archived a number of times on this very forum? It's odd how you talk knowledgeably about so many things like this "duality" that were there for the picking in posts, videos, archives, etc. You still haven't addressed the question and it appears that you're now trying to use the idea that it wasn't your words (except the comparison with me, of course) and that you were just saying what someone else on the video said. They said nothing about me.... you did. So why put my name and "groundpath" in except to trivialize it? If you're going to trivialize it, then explain it. Why do you think the old saying only mentions the path from the ground and not your "duality"???
Quote:
Again I advise people to dismiss the arguing of morons on the net and go pursue the real experts. IP/aiki is much more in depth than what you are going to find in Aikido or those who want you to focus on breath power and pushing or even Tohei's own limited understanding.
And there are methods that can be used for "actual fighting" and all that entails, though it apears many just are not capable of doing or teaching those aspects.
If you want it-it's there to
Tsk. Let's go back to a past question that you went silent on, Dan. Speaking of "real experts", why is your method so different from Ueshiba's and Tohei's? What is it that you know that they didn't know? I.e., are you the "real expert" you're referring to?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:40 AM   #22
DH
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Holy smoke.... "amateur"? You're the one that wanted to come visit me... I didn't want to come visit you. Oh wait.... do you mean the ground + weight paths that I have discussed many times over the years and which is archived a number of times on this very forum? It's odd how you talk knowledgeably about so many things like this "duality" that were there for the picking in posts, videos, archives, etc.
More baiting and bruised ego stuff eh? Run out of meaningful things to say?
Nice dodge of the cheap shot post.
That was when you first drew my attention. Whatever made you think I wanted to come visit you to *learn* anything? I've visited a lot of people for different reasons.

The Internet
I've never once seen you even begin to adequately address the way we move. Not even close. In fact all of your posturing, and beating of your chest about your posting history, and drawings and explanations both here and on the neijia list has resulted in what?
Nothing more than beginner level stuff with a few drawings.
And your Tohei one-legged-army ground vector stuff you go on about ad nauseum is so simplistic and rudimentary that it fully explains why he looked and moved like he did. You may be impressed by him, but I sure as hell never was.

Your comments about the duality being the ground path+ gravity doesn't even begin to cover what we do, nice try though. Your ground path idea-while correct- is too simplistic. Why did I reference it? Since your Neijia list, ground path model is known and out there, it was a good starting point to address; sort of like the hip-tied-to-shoulders is the well known and accepted way many martial artists move; yours is a good starting point to show where to begin and then to get away from, for better power and stability and better fighting movement later on.

If you know more or have more, and I presume you do (I always like to think the better of you) you have yet to write it down anywhere. Past all your rhetoric, your shtick seems to be to get others to talk than you follow with comments.


While I have appreciated your efforts to get the word out-you continue to overplay your hand.
Good luck in you search
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-21-2009 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:39 AM   #23
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I've never once seen you even begin to adequately address the way we move.
As I've said many times, there are a number of variants: some good, some not so good, some complete, some not so complete. I've also said many times that the internet forays are meant to get basics out there... period. Since you've debriefed a few people who have been to my workshops (too bad, Joel, and others), you're aware that there is more than what I've posted ... and there's a lot more than I've shown at workshops, too. Your swipe is pointless, since you're personally aware of these things.

"Posturing"? Pooh. No person on the internet brags about himself as much as you do. If nothing else, you've cut yourself off from a number of sources of information with your egocentricity. So what's your belief... that you already know everything? If you do, I guess you're safe in alienating as many potential sources of information as you have by the things you've said about people in your posts about yourself.

Think about this. The main reason strife and contention initiates on various forums is because people with wannabe or 'established' credentials react defensively when they feel that there is a challenge to their status. I see you doing just that. Whether it's talk about "koryu", or "you have to come to my school because I can't discuss basics in public", or whatever, these are just variants of the old pecking-order psychology. The old neijia list was anomalous in that if someone entered the discussion with a claim (or if a current list-member made a claim), the discussion went to "how does it work", not into a defense of position/status. And the idea that someone in any school, koryu, whatever, can't even discuss basics is fatuous.... only a neophyte would use such an excuse when it becomes obvious that the basics are known by many people.

So the big difference between you and me is that I don't particularly care about the topic other than as an interesting discussion that leads toward further progress; you appear to be establishing a typical pecking-order with you on top and trivializing comments made about anyone you feel threatened by. That's fine, Dan, but leave me out of your ill-disguised expectations.

There are a couple of people that have an interest in keeping a file on how much you can't answer over the last 5 years, how often you have gone silent over the years when a question is asked that you can't answer, how often you have gone back and literally pulled off your posts from forums when you've become embarrassed, and so on. You might take the time to review some of your historical comments and actions and statements about I.S. and understand that you can't reinvent your expertise with each new thread, Dan. There are archives to consider.

Lastly, each time I ask you to explain something, I'm doing so from a public claim that you've made and I take you at your word that you're an expert. So, the next time I ask you a functional "how-to" question, think about your choices: you can either try to start yet another diversionary attack against me personally or you can shut me down with your expertise, which of course must be far higher than my "amateur" level, right? Your inability to answer (or to answer correctly in a number of cases) stands out like a beacon.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:49 AM   #24
MM
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Normally, I'd let the "big boys" go at it. Guess not today.

Quit the personal bickering, please. I'd rather not see Jun shut this thread down. I read the RSF thread and it's actually going somewhere. I'd hoped it would do so here. Is that possible?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:04 AM   #25
Mike Sigman
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Re: Some similarities in Internal Body Skills between Chinese and Japanese arts

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I read the RSF thread and it's actually going somewhere. I'd hoped it would do so here. Is that possible?
I just looked at it, Mark. I must be missing it... what do you see that is "going somewhere"? I see Doc Stier is using one of my drawings without attribution, but I think some of the comments about how things work are missing the mark. Why don't you give us *your* opinion of what's valuable, how it works, and so on? Seriously.

Mike
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