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Old 12-16-2009, 03:05 AM   #51
dalen7
 
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
You just can't enter the world of aiki with regular body mechanics, so you either go down the path, or you choose not to re-forge your body and thus choose not to follow the path.
Suppose the way Im looking at it right now is simply this:
There are a ton of good intentions and philosophical musings when it comes to that which is 'just out of reach'. [i.e., you can call it mystical, etc.]

But at the same time I have spent the majority of my life trying to reach certain goals that laid in this realm... [was a missionary over seas, etc. - was a zealot Christian to be sure] - point in all of this is that even in my zeal I was seeking for the core balance of truth, even if it meant dumping what I believed from the age of 4, etc. - or developing a whole new outlook or deeper understanding to what I believed.

... something like that happened a few years back.
To me its about practical results no matter what it is. And there are only so far you can take things before you need to step it up and test it out or figure out if it has its limited applications.

Kind of why I am cross-training, etc. What works why, when, where. [not to cut suddenly off Aikido, but to make what I take from the principles of it to work regardless...]

Now my point here is that some people may say they dont want to have to give proof, etc., and may frown upon those who ask it as if they are trying to take something away from them and mock them, as it were.

I know that is not the case with me... though I do lean to being more of a Thomas, as it were in this day and age... already put in my years of faith service... its time for practical, tangible results... and even the most mystical [spiritual, martial arts, whatever] can have tangible and explainable, logical [even if that logic is beyond ours], scientific results. [Everything has a purpose and a place in this chaotic universe... an oxymoron?]

All that to say this: Is IT something that is being taught in the US special forces? [Im going beyond fight clubs now], if this is something tangible, then I would suppose the elite would need to benefit from this. [Hey, "men who stare at goats" - try whatever it is you can to stay on top... so if this does have an edge... someone using it? CIA, etc?]

If not, then it begins to question if either we are overcomplicating something that is to some degree related to the concept of learning Ballet [for those of you who may remotely think that is easy, its no more easier than flinging your legs over your back and touching the floor in yoga... and this is why my other post mentioned Ballet, if you can be as aligned, strong, and move your body like they do, and a yoga person... my goodness then you have mastered body mechanics, and from the sound of it that is what IT is about.]

... unless IT isnt about body mechanics and getting your body to move in the best way possible, to be centered, stable, etc. [thats how I have understood it.]

Yes we can talk about subtle chi energies, and I believe in that, for the fact that we know that much happens which we cant see, and that even our thoughts can affect one another - and if your open enough you can basically read someones minds. [like those thoughts jumping back and forth in a short space... which with what we know in Quantum physics isnt so far fetched.]

Anyway... instead of the debates, or rather explanations of why they are different, and why no one can understand it till they try... which I respect and understand you may need someone to help point you through the door... I would like to see someone take it up in the sport arena and just demonstrate it.

From what I heard a Thai Boxers kicks will feel wrong, well I would love to see what an IT would look like when up against a ThaiBoxer, etc..
Why? Because Im defending Thai Boxing? [I have already said I could care less for most of the kicks as I find you are better when rooted on the ground.]

But I want to see this thing that is said to be so opposite demonstrated in a live situation. Surely Im not the only one thinking along these lines - I mean I realize in Aikido where its a non-competitive art and yet here I am trying to get it to work in my grappling/Thai classes, that I may be the odd one out.

Again, I like seeing theory put to the test so I can better understand the difference between a hypothetical situation and the true body dynamic that changes the game completely.

If this were understood by senseis, they would better be able to relay this to their students. Someone is liable to get hurt if they have the wrong impressions of what their art can or cannot do... like the guy on the youtube video that had people falling down without them touching him. [he got to the point he believed this, and then had a guy wipe his rear on the floor!]

Sure there is nothing wrong with the principles he practiced, but you have to be clear about what it is you are doing and where it belongs.

To be clear, if people choose to practice IT without showing how it works in a given situation like the ring, then I totally understand... this is not about picking out people to mock. Each person has their own convictions.

What I am saying is that it would be interesting if there were someone, like me, who wants to try this out and demonstrate what it is they are talking about and how it works against that path which they have chosen not to follow.

At this point, it seems there are limited number of these Aiki trainers, and I dont believe any of them are wanting to go this path... which I respect.

The problem seems to be that its hard to really do anything with these concepts as most of the post say you have to feel it to know what it is... and then keep at it for years.

Ill be honest, I know this has been brought up before, but I still believe that even if something takes awhile to do, we tend to find the longest roads to get there... but perhaps that is what being human is all about.

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 12-16-2009 at 03:16 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:40 AM   #52
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Suppose the way Im looking at it right now is simply this:
There are a ton of good intentions and philosophical musings when it comes to that which is 'just out of reach'. [i.e., you can call it mystical, etc.]

But at the same time I have spent the majority of my life trying to reach certain goals that laid in this realm... [was a missionary over seas, etc. - was a zealot Christian to be sure] - point in all of this is that even in my zeal I was seeking for the core balance of truth, even if it meant dumping what I believed from the age of 4, etc. - or developing a whole new outlook or deeper understanding to what I believed.

... something like that happened a few years back.
To me its about practical results no matter what it is. And there are only so far you can take things before you need to step it up and test it out or figure out if it has its limited applications.

Kind of why I am cross-training, etc. What works why, when, where. [not to cut suddenly off Aikido, but to make what I take from the principles of it to work regardless...]

Now my point here is that some people may say they dont want to have to give proof, etc., and may frown upon those who ask it as if they are trying to take something away from them and mock them, as it were.

I know that is not the case with me... though I do lean to being more of a Thomas, as it were in this day and age... already put in my years of faith service... its time for practical, tangible results... and even the most mystical [spiritual, martial arts, whatever] can have tangible and explainable, logical [even if that logic is beyond ours], scientific results. [Everything has a purpose and a place in this chaotic universe... an oxymoron?]

All that to say this: Is IT something that is being taught in the US special forces? [Im going beyond fight clubs now], if this is something tangible, then I would suppose the elite would need to benefit from this. [Hey, "men who stare at goats" - try whatever it is you can to stay on top... so if this does have an edge... someone using it? CIA, etc?]

If not, then it begins to question if either we are overcomplicating something that is to some degree related to the concept of learning Ballet [for those of you who may remotely think that is easy, its no more easier than flinging your legs over your back and touching the floor in yoga... and this is why my other post mentioned Ballet, if you can be as aligned, strong, and move your body like they do, and a yoga person... my goodness then you have mastered body mechanics, and from the sound of it that is what IT is about.]

... unless IT isnt about body mechanics and getting your body to move in the best way possible, to be centered, stable, etc. [thats how I have understood it.]

Yes we can talk about subtle chi energies, and I believe in that, for the fact that we know that much happens which we cant see, and that even our thoughts can affect one another - and if your open enough you can basically read someones minds. [like those thoughts jumping back and forth in a short space... which with what we know in Quantum physics isnt so far fetched.]

Anyway... instead of the debates, or rather explanations of why they are different, and why no one can understand it till they try... which I respect and understand you may need someone to help point you through the door... I would like to see someone take it up in the sport arena and just demonstrate it.

From what I heard a Thai Boxers kicks will feel wrong, well I would love to see what an IT would look like when up against a ThaiBoxer, etc..
Why? Because Im defending Thai Boxing? [I have already said I could care less for most of the kicks as I find you are better when rooted on the ground.]

But I want to see this thing that is said to be so opposite demonstrated in a live situation. Surely Im not the only one thinking along these lines - I mean I realize in Aikido where its a non-competitive art and yet here I am trying to get it to work in my grappling/Thai classes, that I may be the odd one out.

Again, I like seeing theory put to the test so I can better understand the difference between a hypothetical situation and the true body dynamic that changes the game completely.

If this were understood by senseis, they would better be able to relay this to their students. Someone is liable to get hurt if they have the wrong impressions of what their art can or cannot do... like the guy on the youtube video that had people falling down without them touching him. [he got to the point he believed this, and then had a guy wipe his rear on the floor!]

Sure there is nothing wrong with the principles he practiced, but you have to be clear about what it is you are doing and where it belongs.

To be clear, if people choose to practice IT without showing how it works in a given situation like the ring, then I totally understand... this is not about picking out people to mock. Each person has their own convictions.

What I am saying is that it would be interesting if there were someone, like me, who wants to try this out and demonstrate what it is they are talking about and how it works against that path which they have chosen not to follow.

At this point, it seems there are limited number of these Aiki trainers, and I dont believe any of them are wanting to go this path... which I respect.

The problem seems to be that its hard to really do anything with these concepts as most of the post say you have to feel it to know what it is... and then keep at it for years.

Ill be honest, I know this has been brought up before, but I still believe that even if something takes awhile to do, we tend to find the longest roads to get there... but perhaps that is what being human is all about.

Peace

dAlen
Dude,

All I have to say is, you have to touch someone who is adept in aiki/IP skills. All ramblings, argument, and useless musings will stop there.

Why isn't it in sports fighting yet? Well, for the most part, Asians have kept it a secret for centuries. It's not as 'open' as, say, Western boxing is, so the study and research appropriate for acquiring this skill is not readily available. I'd say give it 5 years, and you'll see some serious head-hunters who have dedicated their lives to rewiring their body and using bodyskill in MMA do some serious damage in the MMA arena.

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Old 12-16-2009, 03:42 AM   #53
dalen7
 
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Dude,

All I have to say is, you have to touch someone who is adept in aiki/IP skills. All ramblings, argument, and useless musings will stop there. .
Your right... a nice quick summary of what I tried to say!
[i.e., time to see it in action!]

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
As for the 'ancient Chinese secret' bit:
We have seen those 'mystical' acts of throwing people without the need to touch them videos, just to see a guy who did this get his rear wiped on the ground - as I pointed out in my above post.
[point is that people have a right to be skeptical and question in order to understand without taking everything on blind faith... understanding what serves what purpose and when.]

Also, the comment about useless musings... perhaps to most, but not to me.
Its good to seek and try to understand, and clarify what it is you believe.

As not to have this post misunderstood by anyone, please refer to my lengthy post above... though it may not be that much clearer. [The point is, Im not trying to pick on anyone concerning what they believe to work.]

Last edited by dalen7 : 12-16-2009 at 03:57 AM.

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Old 12-16-2009, 03:45 AM   #54
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Your right... a nice quick summary of what I tried to say!
[i.e., time to see it in action!]

Peace

dAlen
Cool bro. That's the spirit. Always remember, seek and you shall find .

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Old 12-16-2009, 03:53 AM   #55
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Cool bro. That's the spirit. Always remember, seek and you shall find .
I see we are on the same page then after all.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Though you used the term body skill - again, I think it needs a clear definition as to what defines body skill.
[Im stuck on the Ballet, Yoga paradigm as those guys can do things with their bodies I can only dream of doing.]

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Old 12-16-2009, 04:09 AM   #56
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post

Why isn't it in sports fighting yet? Well, for the most part, Asians have kept it a secret for centuries.
I did want to reiterate that its not just the lack of it in sports, but my question is, 'does the US military use it?'. If not, why? [It being an Asian secret doesnt really convince me on this level due to the interaction of the US military with Asia over the years... and who came out on top, as it were in North Korea, Japan, etc.]
[does not mean there is not some mystical Buddhist monk that is keeping it secret for some high spiritual reason... but again, we are talking about modern claims which people want to simply see how it works.]

I will add that perhaps some of the high ranking IT guys should come to Hungary.
You wont make money here, the people are not wealthy like the western neighbors - but instead of waiting decades [like Aikido] to introduce itself, maybe someone can let Hungary in on the game early this time.

[Ive got a place with Mats to train on the side even.]

Even my Thai Boxing teacher apparently believes such principles to be true... just figuring it out seems to be the issue.

Last edited by dalen7 : 12-16-2009 at 04:14 AM.

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Old 12-16-2009, 05:13 AM   #57
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
I did want to reiterate that its not just the lack of it in sports, but my question is, 'does the US military use it?'. If not, why? [It being an Asian secret doesnt really convince me on this level due to the interaction of the US military with Asia over the years... and who came out on top, as it were in North Korea, Japan, etc.]
[does not mean there is not some mystical Buddhist monk that is keeping it secret for some high spiritual reason... but again, we are talking about modern claims which people want to simply see how it works.]

I will add that perhaps some of the high ranking IT guys should come to Hungary.
You wont make money here, the people are not wealthy like the western neighbors - but instead of waiting decades [like Aikido] to introduce itself, maybe someone can let Hungary in on the game early this time.

[Ive got a place with Mats to train on the side even.]

Even my Thai Boxing teacher apparently believes such principles to be true... just figuring it out seems to be the issue.
Dalen, I recommend you read some literature on Chinese or Japanese martial arts, where these skills are most commonly associated to. You will some countless testimonies of teachers that DELIBERATELY do NOT teach their students. The fact that you find so many crappy Chinese/Japanese martial arts teachers is because of this fact I believe. I'm not being facetious about it being an Asian secret. This isn't kn0wl3dg3 u gain from a ub3r budd41st m0nk when u 3nt3r tha 36 ch4mb3rz. Hell, some of these internal gurus that a1k1/tae-chee fairies worship can be inebriated, foul-mouthed whore-mongers.

Some individuals suggest it's 'hard' work, but I don't think it's as hard as any other craft (granted, it's hard because it takes years and years of unlearning years and years of patterned movement). It's mostly hard because most of us who are even exposed to this stuff are navigating ourselves in murky, uncharted waters where ambiguous mystical terminologies surrounding this knowledge make this kind of practise phenomenologically inconvenient. Like I said before, the research and study involved in this is so scant that lack of propagation of internal skills in the wider scene is to be naturally expected. Whether the Delta Force uses such training begs the question of whether these movement and body skills are PROVEN (by military scientists) to be most efficient for military training. For the most part, public discussion on these skills opened up in the recent years, with exception to guys like Mike Sigman and Dan Harden who've been singing the praises of aiki/internal skills for more than a decade now. And they've been discussing this for the most part within the context of modern budo/combatives. The fact of the matter is, discussing aiki/body skills as a 'discrete' thing is hard enough as it is (the thing about this is that the knowledge has to be in your body before you can express it in words), I don't even try to talk about its uses in MMA or modern budo. And you're asking us why it isn't in the military by now? It's gonna take a long time, g. Although, I am practising internal arts, and I do plan to join the military so I'll help you out with your curiousity .

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Old 12-16-2009, 07:23 AM   #58
Upyu
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
but my question is, 'does the US military use it?'. If not, why?
I'll bite, since this is something pops up, and is repeated "why don't MMAers use it, why don't <insert whatever practical ass whupping MA> use it"

Without going into the technical details, transmitting the full-blown "how" to train these skills is hard enough. I'm guessing it was really meant to be, and was transmitted in small teacher:student ratios.
It requires a lot of work on both the teacher and student. Think of it like a Professor vs. pet student. Said Prof may pick several students as being likely candidates to pursue a given subject deeper, and gives them personal instruction. The rest are given a gloss-over by-the-book version.
For most subjects, you can pick some stuff up even in the "by-the-book" version.
Unfortunately for IT, even for the average stuff, it needs to be shown hands on, in order to get your foot in the door.

Take that scenario, now imagine how the hell you'd apply it to thousands of soldiers which need to be trained. And that's not factoring in the time (at minimum 1-2 years) for the unique kind of conditioning that's trained, to kick in.

Not to say that the knowledge in IT could be used to improve some aspects of training (I've used some tricks based off of the workings of IT to obtain quick gains in some of my mma friends stand up game).

In fact the desire to short-cut some of the training and focus on short term gains is where you see a divergence in styles.

Again to clarify, IT/IS are physical skills. They use parts of the body in ways that ...well all I'll say is you have to feel it for yourself.
Being centered, balanced yatta yatta are only peripheral to the core of the matter.

FWIW Ark went to Thailand before, kicked some pads and got the comment from the Thai boxing coaches "You know we get all types...kyokushin guys etc, but they suck...but you, where the hell did you train?" (Course anyone that's been on the receiving end of Ark's kick could attest to that ^^
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:35 AM   #59
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Robert John wrote: View Post

FWIW Ark went to Thailand before, kicked some pads and got the comment from the Thai boxing coaches "You know we get all types...kyokushin guys etc, but they suck...but you, where the hell did you train?" (Course anyone that's been on the receiving end of Ark's kick could attest to that ^^
I can painfully attest to that. Dude kicked me in my thigh and let's just say...the pain in my leg lasted almost for a week.

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Old 12-16-2009, 07:49 AM   #60
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
All that to say this: Is IT something that is being taught in the US special forces? [Im going beyond fight clubs now], if this is something tangible, then I would suppose the elite would need to benefit from this. [Hey, "men who stare at goats" - try whatever it is you can to stay on top... so if this does have an edge... someone using it? CIA, etc?]
Even if they had people of teaching these skills (which I don't think they do), their current approach is better for them. Select people that are exceptionally physically fit and build from that. The IT alternative would be to take a few years and teach these people to move in a totally different way. Not a very smart move, in my opinion.
Secondly, the benefits of IT for the special forces would be mostly limited to carrying stuff and hand-to-hand combat. They're doing fine at the former without IT and the latter is not that important to them (I assume they prefer guns and knives).

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
As for the 'ancient Chinese secret' bit:
We have seen those 'mystical' acts of throwing people without the need to touch them videos, just to see a guy who did this get his rear wiped on the ground - as I pointed out in my above post.
[point is that people have a right to be skeptical and question in order to understand without taking everything on blind faith... understanding what serves what purpose and when.]
Why throw everything that's secret and Chinese on one big pile? Nobody here is claiming you can use IT in a non-cooperative environment to throw people without touching them. If you're allowed to touch them however, ...
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:10 AM   #61
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
I did want to reiterate that its not just the lack of it in sports, but my question is, 'does the US military use it?'. If not, why?
As far as I'm aware, I lack zero knowledge in IT, but I'll venture to say that the U.S. (and any other) military spends the majority of their time training to dispatch an enemy from as far away as possible. Which, in an era where a sniper can hit a target one half a mile away, makes perfect sense to me. No one is suggesting IT can stop bullets are they? If they are then.....I call B.S.
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:48 AM   #62
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Robert John wrote: View Post
I'll bite, since this is something pops up, and is repeated "why don't MMAers use it, why don't <insert whatever practical ass whupping MA> use it"

Without going into the technical details, transmitting the full-blown "how" to train these skills is hard enough. I'm guessing it was really meant to be, and was transmitted in small teacher:student ratios.
It requires a lot of work on both the teacher and student. Think of it like a Professor vs. pet student. Said Prof may pick several students as being likely candidates to pursue a given subject deeper, and gives them personal instruction. The rest are given a gloss-over by-the-book version.
For most subjects, you can pick some stuff up even in the "by-the-book" version.
Unfortunately for IT, even for the average stuff, it needs to be shown hands on, in order to get your foot in the door.
It's also hard to rewire everything. It's not like, "do this" and you suddenly turn the switch on. For example, you can tell a karate guy to kick the internal way step by step, and he'll have a hard time doing it because he's too used to kick in a certain way. He would have to go home and think, retool, and practice at a boring slow rate to get it.

Also, it takes a lot of thinking and pondering--at least for me-- to do this stuff. You can't just go and mindlessly pound some bags. You have to think about how to do it, set up the 'intention', make sure not to do certain things, etc. etc.

This can take a few years (not many years) to rewire everything depending on the student and coach. But that could be too long for a lot of people who are already good at fighting or need to learn how to fight in a short amount of time.
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:04 AM   #63
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
As far as I'm aware, I lack zero knowledge in IT, but I'll venture to say that the U.S. (and any other) military spends the majority of their time training to dispatch an enemy from as far away as possible. Which, in an era where a sniper can hit a target one half a mile away, makes perfect sense to me. No one is suggesting IT can stop bullets are they? If they are then.....I call B.S.
I would say that Rob's discussion above is probably the reason why, but the benefits of the training would be useful, namely carrying larger loads with less fatigue, increased postural stability should allow for more accuracy (anyone who has seen the surprising results of Akuzawa shooting with minimal experience can attest to that).
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:06 AM   #64
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

dAlen,

Your questions are all very good ones...questions that I have asked over the years that the very same people on this thread are responding too. Some have been answered, some have not, but for the most part I have gotten answers, or have formed my own opinions which we have talked about of course.

Specifically, why isn't the U.S military using it?

I can probably answer that as well as an anyone given my involvement in the Army's Combatives Program and access to the various SMEs we have.

This is an broad and over arching question, and I will attempt to answer it as best I can...as it can be a tricky area to answer directly.

FIrst and foremost, the MIlitary focuses in on what I would call "Good enough" efficiency. that is, we are not trying to be the best martial artist in the world, but to gain skills that are "good enough" to get the job done.

Clearning a room and jacking a guy into a wall in CQB or taking him down...on a realitive scale of skill needed...IT skills don't matter too much really as a specific training methodology.

I simply need learn a few things, achieve suprise, speed, stealth, coupled witth some decent grappling/body skills and I am good to go.

I don't even need to be good a BJJ, I simply a narrow range of skills to be "good enough".

Second, your question assumes that parts of these skills are not already inherent or used in the human body...anyone's human body. Come on, we all have fascia, it all works and supports us...again though...how good does it have to work in order to be "effective"....so to me it becomes a question of skill or realitive value.

I have found much of this training to be helpful to me personally, so the fact that we don't use it in the military does not negate it's value, I think it only puts perspective on the realitive value of actual utility for the military at large...which is an instituion...thus instituional rules/norms/mechanics will apply.

Third point on the whole MMA logic...yea this is kinda a rub with me.

Maybe Dan can clear up a few things that have popped up the last couple of days.

Dan, you mention abandoning your current training is necessary to get gains.

I believe in past conversations that you have also said that MMA guys are using this in their training, which implies and additive practice and can be done as such.

OR, are the MMA guys, which I assume are bonafide competitive fighters with records training in a completely different methodology than say what Pat Militech or any other decent MMA camp is doing.

I would certainly understand if they were gettting a competitive advantage that they'd want to keep it top secret, heck I would....but I think though that since you are training MMA guys and have made that fact public that you could discuss it in general terms.

I don't care about youtube proof etc...just want to understand your perspective on this a little more as I probably have it jacked up some.

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Old 12-16-2009, 10:24 AM   #65
JangChoe
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I would say that Rob's discussion above is probably the reason why, but the benefits of the training would be useful, namely carrying larger loads with less fatigue, increased postural stability should allow for more accuracy (anyone who has seen the surprising results of Akuzawa shooting with minimal experience can attest to that).
Or hit a golf ball. lol.
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:49 AM   #66
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I would say that Rob's discussion above is probably the reason why, but the benefits of the training would be useful, namely carrying larger loads with less fatigue, increased postural stability should allow for more accuracy (anyone who has seen the surprising results of Akuzawa shooting with minimal experience can attest to that).
I understand what you're saying and I agree that all of those attributes would be beneficial to anyone who has the time to put into IT. Heck, I'd like to learn just so mowing my lawn wouldn't be such a pain!

But in reference to the military; from what I gather it takes up alot of time to even establish a solid baseline foundation, much less get really good at this IT. Time which is spent on doing more important things like functioning under pressure, etc.

And on top of all that, how many people re-enlist after their first enlistment which averages about four years? Not too many in my experience.

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 12-16-2009 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:07 AM   #67
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

to add to what Hunter and Rob say, I personally see value in IT training for alot of reasons to a degree.

We do alot of stupid stuff in the Army. It is why I have a jacked up back, have seen knee injuries and alot of other problems.

There is much utility in learning to do things "right" from a load bearing, balanced posture and still being able to bring something to a fight..so yeah it applies.

But alas, when you are faced with an institution and you are working in a constrained time environment, you have to make choices about how you spend that time.

Don't be so quick to assume that close fight skills are not relevant, they are VERY relevant. The Cold War, fight from a distance model of engagement is no longer applicable and we are engaging people at arms length mostly. Hopefully shaking hands and smiling, but not always.

It is why we have a very robust Combative program today in the Army.

Of course, when you look at the spectrum of use of force, you are not going to choose to use Grappling if you can use another weapon, but that is not always a choice for various reasons.

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Old 12-16-2009, 11:13 AM   #68
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

I've read Dan say that he has trained MMA fighters WITHOUT going the internal route, for similar reasons discussed as in the military argument (well-laid to rest here I think-- just takes too long and too much teaching effort to get to a level of effectiveness that external ways are really quick at).
So although I also really, really want to see Dan or Akuzawa or any of their students on TV fighting... I have yet to hear that there is any move in that direction. Is there, guys??

But Dalen, your post was still grouping yoga, ballet, and IT in the same boat, and Kevin touched on this-- just because it uses tissue and organs that we all have does not mean it a similar approach. It uses the tissues in a modified way. It uses tissues to do things in IT that they are NOT doing in ballet for instance. Ballet may be really good at getting your body optimized and skilled, but it is the other body, the "regular" body, that it is training. I think you will agree that is a worthy and difficult, and rewarding pusuit. But it is not related. As I understand it.
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:53 PM   #69
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Thought I would post something as someone who has gone from doing "internal" arts (aikido, taijiquan) for decades to doing MMA. It may not have been the smartest decision in terms of injuries, considering I'm starting a competitive combative sport at the age of 40, and since joining an MMA gym I am now always nursing at least some minor problem somewhere, but I'm having more fun than I have in many years.

My experience is probably very similar to everyone else's who has shifted their training after a long-term investment in various arts, though in a sense the opposite of Dan's, since he started as a fighter and I started as a martial "artist" who was preoccupied with internal training. I've never been in a real fight in my life, and haven't done any sparring aside from some limited sparring in my old aikido dojo back in the 80's, so the ego-battering and failure that I'm dealing with now have more to do with just learning to deal with resistive opponents who don't really care what kind of training I've had in the past or what subtle skills I can demonstrate on them in a very restricted setting. It's made me appreciate how delicate of a balance is required for kata- or waza-based training: it's great for learning motor skills and for some aspects of ma-ai and timing, but it's way too easy to start assuming that the power you feel (during what is essentially a role-playing excercise) is real.

I have spent the last three years practicing the basic Aunkai excercises fairly intensively, which helped to prepare my body to withstand the demands of grappling and kickboxing to a pretty significant degree, but I'm finding that the power I can generate is actually not much of an issue yet, in the sense that I don't get much of an opportunity to test it out. I've been more preoccupied with dealing with all the other technical, perceptual and psychological variables that I'm not used to, so it feels like it's going to be a little while longer until I start being able to effectively integrate IS with MMA. Plus, I'm actually really enjoying the technical side of boxing, muay thai and grappling, so it's been fun to put aside everything I would normally do and learn something that is so different from what I'm used to. It's one thing to say that the technical stuff is meaningless if you have IS, but I've noticed that the guys who say that generally have years and years of technical or fighting experience already, so it's all become completely internalized. For now, it really feels like the technical side is a missing piece that I need to spend a few years on, just as I've spent the last few years rewiring things with shiko, tenchijin, etc. I'm not too worried about having to re-rewire things later; I've done it so many times in the last fifteen years I just expect it now. So at least I don't have any anxiety about having to relearn things.

But it feels like a natural progression, and I can feel how things will start to coalesce once I'm more comfortable in this new setting. It's started happening a little bit, enough for me to recognize the truth of Rob's 80% rule above, though maintaining 20% is a little generous in my case when the severe fatigue sets in. Granted, I'm going pretty slowly at the MMA gym, getting my feet wet bit by bit to avoid injuries that are any more severe than strained muscles, so that's a variable in how quickly the IS will come into play. But looking at things long-term, I'm perfectly happy to start off slower, for a number of reasons.
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Old 12-16-2009, 02:32 PM   #70
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Jang Choe wrote: View Post
Or hit a golf ball. lol.
Too bad the balls aren't a neon colour, its kind of hard to see how far they went from the videos!
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