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Old 11-11-2009, 09:20 AM   #26
Mike Sigman
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Re: internal strength demo...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm curious, too. Particularly since the mingmen is just the backside of the dantien. Even the statement is an oxymoron to anyone that knows how.
Bump. This has got to be about the 20th archived time (at least) in the last 4-5 years that a serious and germane question has been asked about a supposedly knowledgeable assertion, resulting in silence or avoidance. Very easy matter to discuss, as a number of people/lurkers are aware. Regardless of peoples assertions about what they can do, all we can *meaningfully* do in a written forum is discuss how's, facts, and so on. When it comes to I.S., there is a codified viewpoint that goes back very far in history (Ueshiba constantly referred to these traditional writings). If the conversations are reduced to other matters, personal observations about "some people", "senior experts I've astounded", etc., we go no where.

In regard to another topic, Ashe's video: Ashe, let me see if I can get you on the same wavelength. In your video you have a guy leaning in and *downward* (hence his force is pointed down toward your feet, for the most part). Your arms are moving. I'm very used to these scenarios and I don't see any dantien usage (you say you don't use dantien, so 'check'), nor are the hips meaningfully engaged in the movement of your arms. How are your arms moving? How does it work?

The actual limits of the dantien controls are bordered by the perineum, the front of the dantien, the mingmen, and the diaphragm. I.e., the mingmen is more or less 'the back side of the ball' that is the whole dantien region. The dantien area can be thought of as a, ummm, let's say a muscular ball attached to the base/lower-end of the spine. So anyway you look at it, whether an art is Shaolin or one of the Neijia arts, if it mentions using the hara/dantien then the dantien exercises control over movements. When a CMA expert says "no dantien", he means that someone is using local control, regardless of whether they've built up some level of rudimentary jin (no matter how strong), etc. One suggestion I often make, in an honest attempt to be helpful, is that people analyse their movements, particularly starting with the shoulders, and honestly evaluate where motion is originating, and so forth.

Because your partner is leaning downward, you are indeed taking a portion of his force to your feet... it's pretty easy to do in that position with a downward vector. But IMO you're going to be blocked for a pretty long time at that level of performance if you don't get someone to show you how to change the other factors and re-pattern your movements accordingly.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:40 AM   #27
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: internal strength demo...

Well Mike, After meeting with a number of you guys I personally realized how much I didn't really know and how much I needed to learn, so I pretty much shut up about this stuff as I don't really know much about it...so I think I at least have that much going for me in my level of knowledge now. LOL!

I prefer to sit back and read right now, maybe ask a clarifying question every now and then, but I am learning alot through the discourse so thanks alot!

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Old 11-11-2009, 12:34 PM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: internal strength demo...

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I prefer to sit back and read right now, maybe ask a clarifying question every now and then, but I am learning alot through the discourse so thanks alot!
Hi Kevin:

I prefer to keep the conversations focused on facts and how-to's. Instead of discussing personalities and things we've heard about people (don't we all have a lot of things we've heard about people that we could talk about if that was a compulsion we couldn't control?), I suggest that everyone would be better of asking more specific 'how-to' questions. But I've said that for years.

IMO I don't think anyone gets very far with these skills if don't constantly think and ask questions. Ueshiba and a number of others have all remarked how many years and how much thinking and practice it takes to do these skills. No one can fully figure things out for themselves.

As a side comment, I'd also note that it's important to be able to use these skills in a demonstrable way, but the idea that someone can prove their worth with some limited sparring, "rolling", "push hands", etc., is a proven dead end with a lot of potentially misleading directions. Unless, of course, the person making the noise about proving their qi/jin/kokyu/ki skills is the world's most unbeatable fighter. Once you tie these skills to proving it by who beats whom in sparring, rolling, push-hands, etc., you begin to make it a "my skills are correct because I kicked Joe Blow's butt" sort of conversation. The Chinese have dealt with those kinds of brags for centuries and they usually boil it back down to the "if you're the world's best unbeaten fighter, cool..... what big names have you won against?". It also boils down to "I could beat Ueshiba when he was 85 so therefore my knowledge/skills are better than his were." I recently saw that inference and I give it short shrift. The knowledge is what it is and is demonstrable. The levels of practical application are a different subject, unless, of course no one in the world can beat you.

The way around all the noise? Ask pertinent questions, try to state how-to-facts, and be ready to defend factually any assertions you make. Of course many attempts to answer via personal attack are going to happen on a lot of the chat forums, but isn't it a given that the statistical majority of most people in martial arts are not really serious? It's to be expected. The idea is to talk around it.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-11-2009, 03:28 PM   #29
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Thanks for the reply MIke. I agree. Right now, for me, I have had enough "how to" shown to me, and enough laid out to me that it is now all about training and logging time, which I am doing. So short of actually training hands on, I really don't have much I can ask over a chat session.

Not that my opinion on this matters at all....just wanted to chime in and say that I am out here listening/reading even though I am not getting much involved in the discussion, as I have very little to contribute!

Thanks again for all your efforts and communication!

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Old 11-11-2009, 03:33 PM   #30
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Re: internal strength demo...

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there's pro's and con's to any demo, since it's basically showing just ONE thing or a couple things out of context (i.e. fighting).

In this case I like to have the guy really lean in and do the push up because many times, especially in a video demo, it can be hard to tell if the demo partner is really even applying force or not, or how much. at least in this case, it's obvious that force is indeed being applied.

i like to move around and show the relaxation because, of course, if you can't change and move than what good is the skill? basically i'm trying to make it a bit more obvious that these skills can actually applied during some kind of real movement.

my thing is that this sort of thing at he very least is not really possible using "arm and shoulder strength" unless maybe you can bench press 800 lbs.
hi Ashe--

Sorry I haven't had time to look at your video clip until just now. Thanks for posting it. I think it achieves your main aim of showing how "these skills can actually (be) applied during some kind of real movement." You take on the downward load and move with it while staying pretty relaxed--particularly in the shoulders, which for a lot of us (including me) remain a sticking point. Looks like the load is moving right down your spine and through your hips, which remain loose and adjustable in transferring the load (allowing for kicks, for example). I see where becoming aware of and training the use of the mingmen area comes into play, more clearly with your demo than with most of the taiji push-hands work I've done or seen.

As was noted, the demo clip you posted is different than the sort of "static" (in terms of external movement) standing test that Dan describes, or the Aunkai "push-out" test. In my own partner practice with different static/standing postures, exploring how to most effectively engage the lower spine and supporting tissues (fascial and muscular) is becoming more important with time.

For me the question of fajin, release of power, seems qualitatively different than taking on the load of an opponent's weight, or incoming force, and absorbing/neutralizing/returning it. Exploring how the breath can support (or interfere with!) fajin and neutralization is giving me some (very tentative) ideas about deeper internal connections at work with both fajin and neutralization that might bridge that perceived difference. In particular, keeping the breath relatively smooth and continuous and not locking up the diaphragm under load seems important in these very early stages of learning.

Ark and Dan both often do, to varying degrees, something at the point of contact (with their partners) that felt to me, in different circumstances, like it either drains my force or alternatively impinges into my center--with hardly any overt movement on their part. If there is any "path" at all in their bodies it seems very short. So it may point to the difference between "short" and "long" paths and energies described (with less than stunning clarity) in taiji writings.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:32 PM   #31
Mike Sigman
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Re: internal strength demo...

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Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Looks like the load is moving right down your spine and through your hips, which remain loose and adjustable in transferring the load (allowing for kicks, for example). I see where becoming aware of and training the use of the mingmen area comes into play, more clearly with your demo than with most of the taiji push-hands work I've done or seen.
So Tom, if and when I come visit Seattle and ask you to show me... can you explain how a load goes to the hips, yada, yada, but the arms are moving, how those arms happen to be moving if the shoulders aren't moving them? It's going to be interesting to see. I think you missed the whole point, but I'm willing to listen.

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:19 PM   #32
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Re: internal strength demo...

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So Tom, if and when I come visit Seattle and ask you to show me... can you explain how a load goes to the hips, yada, yada, but the arms are moving, how those arms happen to be moving if the shoulders aren't moving them? It's going to be interesting to see. I think you missed the whole point, but I'm willing to listen.

Mike Sigman
Jeepers, Mike, my comment was directed to Ashe. I would never presume to show you anything. I'm not sure where I wrote that the shoulders aren't involved in the movement of the arms, though.

As far as me missing the whole point, yours or anyone else's, well, it wouldn't be the first time.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:09 PM   #33
Mike Sigman
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

If the load is moving to the hips, why would the shoulders be involved? In other words, here's a chance to do something rather than just opine on a chat forum... try following the logic. It's the same basic question I was asking Josh to try and figure out. The idea of "steal this technique" has to do with figuring things out, not waiting for someone to tell you and then, aha, you "know" it and will be able to do it someday.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-14-2009, 04:17 PM   #34
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

From what I understand on the forums here, in regards to I.T., it appears that many are of the opinion that I.T. is what actually makes Aikido tick, and that even some of the Shihans are missing it. [Again, going by memory on a post I recall concerning this.]

I myself have been trying to find out how things work, which circumstances Aikido is effective with, etc.

Recently I have been mingling Aikido with Thai Boxing/grappling.
[actually just in the grappling bit.] Point is to see how Aikido works in a fast paced environment, etc.

My findings are interesting and kind of align with my original theory... though they are not all conclusive as of yet.

What I am wondering is if anyone who is really involved in I.T., [specifically those who feel that the Shihans are missing it and that Aikido is headed in a new direction], if they have ever applied this to a sparring match. [Whether it be grappling, boxing, what have you.]

What I am finding is that various principles are true, but it depends in what context.

And while I believe that I.T. can help benefit ones game in MMA, at least in theory, the question is has anyone done this yet?

i.e.,
In Aikido the theory of how we are taught to block and use an atemi punch when chudan Tsuki is used is great - but I have a strange feeling if your going against a boxer who is coming in with combinations you will have had to have some 'live' mat time to make any headway... regardless of how fast you practiced the 'one punch' technique.

Same with I.T.
In theory this should just be part of every movement as I understand it, but I would love to see a match between someone with I.T. and MMA to see the outward benefits in an environment that is slightly different than what Aikido would present per say.

Reminds me of a Krav Maga video I saw where someone was patting a guys arm... [not saying this is a bad idea, but if the guy has any skill in any art, he probably will have you in a guillotine and not just resting his arm on your chest. [but what do I know about this.]

A lot is great in theory to a certain level, but then it steps up to the next... and I feel a lot of the time we dont have the most suitable environment to push what we have to its max to truly understand it.

This may or may not be clear... starting to get late here.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
If any of you guys that do I.T. are ever in Hungary, please let me know... would love to try it out.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 12-14-2009, 04:38 PM   #35
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

dAlen,

Dan Harden is probably the guy to ask about this I'd say based on his post. I am hoping to one day meet up with him on this very subject.

My thoughts on this whole subject is that "It is realitive". That is...there is a Cost/Benefit ratio to everything and you must find the balance that is right for you.

I think it depends on your goals and the time you want to be "effective".

BJJ is my grappling background of course. Should I spend time doing BJJ or doing some arcane exercises if I want to get good at BJJ?

Well the answer is I need to spend time dong BJJ primarily, but I also believe that IT/IP training is of benefit, so I try and spend some time doing this as well. The struggle for me has been prioritizing and placing a "optimal weight or ratio" on the time spent doing these things.

However, if you are looking at a longer term picture or maybe a different objective in your training, then maybe your investment would be best spent stopping trraining in MT and Grappling all together and devote several years to doing IT/IP training, then coming back to it? Not sure personally.

For me, I am not willing to risk what I am gaining through BJJ to stop training this as a majority of my time. I believe in a integrative approach which involves cardio, drills, yoga, and some core training as well.

I do try and spend time each day and several hours a week doing IT/IP related type training as I can as I do believe it has helped me quite a bit.

Anyway, hopefully someone with more experience will come on here and talk about it.

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Old 12-14-2009, 05:41 PM   #36
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I think it depends on your goals and the time you want to be "effective".

However, if you are looking at a longer term picture or maybe a different objective in your training, then maybe your investment would be best spent stopping trraining in MT and Grappling all together and devote several years to doing IT/IP training, then coming back to it?

For me, I am not willing to risk what I am gaining through BJJ to stop training this as a majority of my time. I believe in a integrative approach which involves cardio, drills, yoga, and some core training as well.
From martial arts I am hoping to gain an in-depth understanding of body mechanics, [what, why, when techniques work], as well as gain improved co-ordination, flexibility, etc., in the process.
[Basically getting to know and use my body more efficiently. You should see my Thai-boxing kicks... they are horrible! lol]

I suppose Im looking for a holistic approach which bridges the gap between the philosophy/ideas of non-competitive martial arts and the techniques of those which are competitive.

To me non-competitive martial arts are missing a key point due to their lack of experience with a more dynamic art where you can test your skill... same as the competitive arts are missing out by neglecting the inner aspects offered by these non-competitive martial arts.

If I ever teach this stuff for money one day, I would like to give a no B.S. course which is applicable in competition as well as out of it. - There is too much stuff out there with people trying to understand and put the pieces together, suppose I would like to take the edges off of it a bit.

Peace

dAlen

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 12-14-2009, 09:15 PM   #37
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

You and I are a sort of on the same boat it appears. I think a moderate path is the way to go. Masters the fundamentals of the arts/practices you want to teach and then spend some time exploring the esoteric aspects of them to be able to teach the finer points/principles that are important.

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Old 12-14-2009, 09:22 PM   #38
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
[Basically getting to know and use my body more efficiently. You should see my Thai-boxing kicks... they are horrible! lol]
Not to knock it, since sparring and pressure based training is important, but the mechanics behind a Thai-boxing kick, boxing punch, or any hip, shoulder, rotational move etc, are completely and utterly different from I.P. I.S. based movements. Which means when you finally get down to doing the hard work in rewiring your body, it's going to be a bitch and a half to retrain.

That being said, if you don't have a teacher out in your area to teach actual I.S. ... I'd probably still take the live training anyways.
It's kind of like being caught between being a rock and a hard place.

Ark has a systematic approach to combining those I.S. skills in a a stand-up environment, though it's pared down due to the fact that you're mainly limited to striking with your legs, knees and gloves.

It takes a lot of rewiring to simply get your body to move correctly, and then even more effort to "keep it together" when moving under pressure. Good rule of thumb I've found is that, in the beginning I lost about 80% connectivity under pressure. The 20% I kept made all the difference of course. The more relaxed you are under pressure though, the easier it is to maintain...and that's something you can only get through progressively difficult pressure testing.

Once you start to rewire your body though, throwing a thai kick, punch etc will simply feel "weird" or even "wrong" for lack of a better term
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Old 12-14-2009, 10:28 PM   #39
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

I agree with Rob with the exception of losing 80% connectivity under pressure. I haven't met the guy who could pressure me that far....yet.
This was the post I was going to write and then said screw it.

For me IP/aiki is all about it's use in fighting-real and whole.
I don't talk about it much anymore. I'm sick of thousands of words wasted in debate, that always ends up the same in person. So when I read how someone just "wants to add it to his game" I say...uhm...sure, okay. You're going to start over

*Notes on attributes
Practical applied power
less gassing,-less effort to do things
More control of the outcome-they have a bitch of a time controlling you
Knockout power

*Note
I am not saying it makes you superman-anyone can get tagged- "S____ happens." So lets not go there either. It offers very distinct and real world advantages to a fighters game Over external movement.

IP /aiki is instantly notable as being a different way to move (it's hard for them to feel where the kicks and punches are coming from as they don't feel the weight shifts, its extremely hard to find our centers to throw or manipulate, and on the whole our bodies feel like hard rubber to hit or try to deal with, and we have knockout power; even on the ground, and there is a very responsive, almost artificially fast feel.

Many MAer's are full of crap and waste of time. They want to "check you out, and check you "off" of their BTDT list. They really don't want it bad enough to give up what they are doing to pursue this. As one recent P/Ker said. "I just don't want to give up the fun I am having and what I am very good at to switch to this type of training." That's cool. But ...I... have better things to do with MY time as well. So those who want to just "add this to their game" need not apply.
It's like taking up Golf at 60. Why would you do that to yourself?

Everyone lives their lives and has their views. Personally, I would never change back...ever! I would never go back to lifting and cardio for fighting power (although I still do cardio and very specific weight drills of a different type) I am living a continuing experiment; a truth, for my own self; IP/ aiki that is practical in all out force-on-force fighting. I have no vested interest in proving it to anyone. So, although I would recommend this type of training to everyone, as I believe it is the best training in the world for MA; I know that most will never do the work. Its just the way it is.
Good luck in your training
Dan
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Old 12-15-2009, 03:37 AM   #40
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Which means when you finally get down to doing the hard work in rewiring your body, it's going to be a bitch and a half to retrain.

Once you start to rewire your body though, throwing a thai kick, punch etc will simply feel "weird" or even "wrong" for lack of a better term
I suppose maybe a better analogy of what it is Im trying to do is simply this: Ballet.

If given the opportunity to have some serious Ballet & Yoga classes, I would believe I could achieve, [a lot of] the goals Im am seeking to do with understanding body mechanics/movements... and then quickly adapt to whatever martial arts I may choose to do.

The point for me is to have my body adapted to what is and isnt possible, a honed 'machine' that is not limited to a certain range, etc.

For now, Thai Boxing is doing this for me, as I cannot kick high at all, and my balance is shot. Of course Im pulling out of it what ideas I think are practical for a sport fight, etc.

Ill say this straight up... I do not see the value in any high kicks - at least not in theory, as I have already on more than one occasion accidentally caught the guys leg and remembered your not supposed to catch the leg and hold on. [Or can you... need to clarify that bit.]

I will say it does not make for natural training to withhold form certain natural tendencies like to grab the leg, and even more so not to practice taking them down then as it is quite easy to do seeing they are not rooted to the ground.

From Thai Boxing I think the practicality lies in the clinch & the knees [and elbows for those who use it.] A good boxing footwork and combos is nothing to sneeze at either, and again something someone in Aikido just is not ready for as they practice for the one punch.

So, Ballet/Yoga, [the benefits that come from], is really more of an ultimate goal in terms of what I believe it will offer me as it concerns a full range of control, balance, flexibility, and knowledge of what movements are more natural for the body and how to maximize it... but until then Ill figure it out the best I can this way. [As I am interested in the martial aspect, of which the former seems to be the foundation.]

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 12-15-2009 at 03:41 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:20 AM   #41
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So, although I would recommend this type of training to everyone, as I believe it is the best training in the world for MA; I know that most will never do the work. Its just the way it is.

Good luck in your training
Dan
Good morning Dan.

I hope you don't take this question the wrong way, because I am sincere in trying to understand. I've read this a few times about internal training and I have to ask; if the rewards are so great, remarkable, measurable, why are people so unwilling to do the work? That just doesn't make sense to someone who trains hard and is constantly trying to improve themselves.

So...Is it really that tedious? Boring? Painful? Time consuming? Does it become even more so as you progress? The more you advance and the more breakthroughs you have, the more you have to continue to challenge yourself, which leads to even more pain, isolation and monotony?

I'm just trying to understand the big picture.

Thanks.

Mike C.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:00 AM   #42
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

Quick post pointing to part of one of Dan's posts in another thread:

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi George

All to true. But in the end I think-utterly meaningless. It's still a lively debate as to who is even doing these things. You've seen the reaction AFTER folks felt it up front. Even they aren't interested in discussing it much in detail. all. They saw it, and felt it and were dumfounded by it. And most realized its start-over time.
So we agree that serious debate over these things is probably over-the how-to is what becomes dicey.
First, someone who can impart the skills they know is needed.
Second, someone who will give the time.
Third, a student willing to devote countless hours of alone time working.
So in the end few- Mikes 2% suggestion- will likely achieve good results.
Everyone wants it described and spelled out for them here. While the ways and ideals can be spoken in a few paragraphs, there is little point. Even single sentences can take years of effort. The work takes much concentration and inglorious alone time. For most the wisest choice would be to stop practice for years to rebuild, rewire. Few will.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:27 AM   #43
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
I suppose maybe a better analogy of what it is Im trying to do is simply this: Ballet.
Er well... Ballet has almost nothing to do with this stuff.

Maybe Gernot would want to comment?

The balance instilled by I.S. is a physical skill, trained, and very specific

Dan:
Sorry I should've clarified, it can fall apart to some degree in the beginning under pressure. It was meant more as a caution for those hoping that this would somehow and suddenly magically up their game in sparring.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:38 AM   #44
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Er well... Ballet has almost nothing to do with this stuff.
Perhaps not, but for what Im talking about wanting to accomplish it does.
[I believe the paradigm is there, I just was not able to bring it out in what I wrote.]

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 12-15-2009 at 09:43 AM.

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Old 12-15-2009, 11:23 AM   #45
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Perhaps not, but for what Im talking about wanting to accomplish it does.
[I believe the paradigm is there, I just was not able to bring it out in what I wrote.]
Hi Dalen- I think you guys might be talking past each other. From what you wrote, I think I see where you are coming from-- we don't use our bodies to full capacity and it would be fun to find out just what it can do.

But the point here is, there are 2 roads or schools of thought or types of moving, and you have to decide which one you are wanting to go down. You can fight with internal strength or with normal mechanics, and they are 2 different things. You can walk with either, dance with either. But they are 2 different realms, like 2 different languages. Or shall we say one is like prose/fiction and one is like poetry. So which will it be? You could spend a lifetime in either one, and be getting better the whole time. So it isn't like one is a dead end.
Rather, if you spend a lifetime in prose you won't be much of a better poet, and vice versa. They have different rules, theories, and modalities for creating effect in the reader. But both do stuff and so both could be seen as worth studying.
But you have to personally make a choice, unless you have 2 lifetimes. BTW what if poetry gave you a longer lifetime than prose, wouldn't that factor in too?

I think this speaks to Mike C.'s question though I am just a rambling lurker. If you want to totally suck for a few years, you are a rare kind of martial artist, even though it is ultimately in line with what all MA claim to pursue-- perfecting the self continually. Instead of sucking for a few years and MAYBE becoming great if you work hard enough, how about not sucking (if you are already a decent 'external' MAist) at all now, and maybe never becoming as great as you could have been? In other words, not changing has its benefits, especially for the ego.
The choice seems obvoius on the forum. But in real life that is a serious decision, for the heart moreso than the head.
--JW
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:19 PM   #46
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
But the point here is, there are 2 roads or schools of thought or types of moving, and you have to decide which one you are wanting to go down.

If you want to totally suck for a few years, you are a rare kind of martial artist, even though it is ultimately in line with what all MA claim to pursue-- perfecting the self continually. The choice seems obvoius on the forum.
But in real life that is a serious decision, for the heart moreso than the head.
--JW
I was a very capable and proven fighter when I chose to pursue this. And when I did- I kept failing at it...for years. Yet I was willing to invest in that failure-to the point of friends mocking me- to reach a deeper level. In some aspects, it was one of the hardest things I have ever done-both in ego and in effort. The mindset has never changed, I will never allow myelf to "hold on" to something ever again. I test and test and I remain open to change.

I am realizing, now, more and more, just how rare that is. Having won, or achieved a certain level it can be difficult to let go of everything you knew. The smartest thing I ever did was to walk away from my strength to pursue and discover my power.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-15-2009 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 12-15-2009, 01:17 PM   #47
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I was a very capable and proven fighter when I chose to pursue this. And when I did- I kept failing at it...for years.
Again, not doubting you here and excuse my ignorance, but why? If you were already a capable and proven fighter why did you step into the unknown and away from the training paradigm that you know yields legitimate results? I understand investing in failure and the idea of learning more from losing than winning. And I have no doubt that there is something to IT that is worth investigating, but is it really that much of a leap in power and ability?
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:12 PM   #48
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Perhaps not, but for what Im talking about wanting to accomplish it does.
[I believe the paradigm is there, I just was not able to bring it out in what I wrote.]
No doubt Dalen, and don't take this the wrong way.
I'm just trying to say it as straight as possible when I say, the paradigm has very little overlap. On the surface it looks like it might (straight posture, alignment yatta yatta yatta), but the development is different, as are the results.
Look at it this way, if the paradigms even remotely overlapped then you'd see physical development that was more in keeping with say Ueshiba's mid-drift, or increased overall thickness of the body etc.

What I'd consider to be "overlapping paradigms" is say, the Karate approach vs, the Aikido approach vs the Yoga approach etc.

Btw, for the most part I'm talking past you here. FWIW I understand what you're trying to achieve, (completely understandable, and I'm not arguing on your goals at all) I just wouldn't put it in the same box and assume that it would help you achieve IT/IS.
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:58 PM   #49
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
And I have no doubt that there is something to IT that is worth investigating, but is it really that much of a leap in power and ability?
I'm sure we'll all enjoy Dan's answer to your question, but I would like to point out that it is NOT a "leap in power and ability" as I understand it. It is more like the doorway a totally separate and unrelated world. You just can't enter the world of aiki with regular body mechanics, so you either go down the path, or you choose not to re-forge your body and thus choose not to follow the path. And yes, I admit that is still a controversial thing to say, but take it from O-sensei.. he beckons for us to go down the path:

Doka of the Day - December 15, 2009
The Pine, the Bamboo, and the Plum.
The make up of Ki that we are training to purify
From where do they arise?
The Water and Fire of the change in the self.

The meaning I'm sure can be looked at from a lot of angles (spiritual, moral, intellectual..) but for the physical angle-- you have to change the body to approach the goals that O-sensei was espousing. No matter how well you appreciate the goals, you don't get them from imitating the form of the goals (those trees' atttributes), rather you have to turn to "water" and "fire," which are on the surface not the goals you are shooting for. But they are the gateway to the path, so you either go down it or you forsake it.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:07 PM   #50
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Re: YouTube: Internal strength demo...

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I was a very capable and proven fighter when I chose to pursue this. And when I did- I kept failing at it...for years. Yet I was willing to invest in that failure-to the point of friends mocking me- to reach a deeper level.
This thread could use a little hope!
Dan, would you agree that what you went through was much harsher on the ego than what some bumbling but sincere young seeker would have to go through now? For instance, all those aikiweb folks who you have helped guide are having a much nicer time, right? In other words, there are now (as opposed to what you went through) some supportive environments that allow this kind of body skill to be learned in a way that involves "help" (ie some cooperative aspects)? Like training in your barn as opposed to doing your solo work and then showing up at a judo or MMA or BJJ place and just trying to go at it with strangers or even "friends" who are mocking your new direction.

Just saying, all of us who want to do this are going to feel the "I suck" feeling, it's inevitable, but it seems that it doesn't have to sting quite as much as it could.

And without these conversations, seminars, offers to help, we as a community would not have that, so thanks to all you guys who are sharing.
--Jonathan Wong
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