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Old 07-30-2009, 08:18 PM   #51
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Marc,

Does their (your) Ukemi tend to grab, hold, or stay connected more than maybe you might see in Aikido or Judo practices? That is, riding the fall down.
Kevin:

With Ushiro Sensei, you literally receive no warning signs (eg. tactile, tension, etc.) before you find yourself propelled, so that you do not have an opportunity to grab or hold. With my old wrestling background, and the work at SBK and with Ushiro Sensei, I find that I have no problem remaining relaxed as I am being tossed. That allows me to be able to remain connected. For example, when most people do sacrifice throws on me, I go with it and then use the momentum to change the roll so that I end up on top. I do not get enough "info" from Ushiro Sensei to be able to do that with him.

Ushiro Sensei uses his Ki so that no matter how hard you get tossed on the ground by him, you end up not getting hurt. It teaches your body at a preconscious level to be able to receive the throws safely.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:21 PM   #52
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Marc,

Does their (your) Ukemi tend to grab, hold, or stay connected more than maybe you might see in Aikido or Judo practices? That is, riding the fall down.
I quite often attempt to ride the fall down. It's easier on my body and keeps my partner honest. I also will bring my foot towards their head, looking for that opening as well.
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:59 AM   #53
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

LOL, Ricky yea I do the same!

Thanks Marc, that is interesting. I like that feeling when there is no feedback or prioprioceptive reference point and it simply becomes easier to actually do the ukemi.

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Old 07-31-2009, 09:55 AM   #54
Larry Feldman
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

From the Karate people that have come to practice with me through the years Kempo practicioners seem to adapt to Aikido the best.

A friend who does Ju Jitsu has made the same comment to me.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:29 AM   #55
Marc Abrams
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
LOL, Ricky yea I do the same!

Thanks Marc, that is interesting. I like that feeling when there is no feedback or prioprioceptive reference point and it simply becomes easier to actually do the ukemi.
Kevin:

Isn't it amazing how if we have time to think about the movement, we typically screw it up and get hurt ! One thing that I keep repeating to my students is that our bodies typically know what to do and how to do it safely, it is just a matter of not interfering in that process.

Marc
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:14 AM   #56
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
I also will bring my foot towards their head, looking for that opening as well.
As far as that goes, depending on the throw and the person who's doing the throwing, I have to conciously make an effort NOT to kick nage in the head. I have kicked a few people before (not hard of course)

In my aikijitsu class, we frequently grabbed onto whoever was throwing us. The only acception was when we did sacrafice throws. In that case, I gladly let go to get my roll in.... unless nage refused to let go of me! In aikido, I don't do it so much, but there are some techniques that I just can't help it. Sometimes my clingyness causes me to land in a breakfall though, but I don't mind those.

Last edited by ninjaqutie : 07-31-2009 at 11:16 AM.

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Old 08-10-2009, 08:19 PM   #57
K. Abrams
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Jeez, Drew. Whatever you do, don't ever ever ever call it that in front of a Korean. No joke.
I think that's what Koreans themselves called it back in the 1950s and 60s, because it was more like karate back in those days. A lot of them learned karate when Japan occupied Korea up till the end of the second world war. Modern TKD was modeled on it. Word!

But you are right, I don't think they'd appreciate anyone calling it that now. I trained in TKD from age 8 until I graduated from high school and never ever heard any of my instructors or their teachers mention Japanese karate or any connection to it.

Back to topic, I don't think any karate style is complementary to aikido. The movements seem too stiff and angular and idea of punching and kicking just doesn't fit in with blending. On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt to learn some decent punches and kicks to use as atemi to make aikido practice more realistic.

Last edited by K. Abrams : 08-10-2009 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 08-11-2009, 08:48 AM   #58
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

You might want to look at the Ryobu-kai style. The founder of this style was a student of Morihei Ueshiba and O Sensei had a hand in advising him in the development of a couple of the later katas. These articles below are from the Ryobukai website.

Best wishes,
Jorge

______________________________________________________

Ryobu-Kai Info
The JAPAN KARATE-DO RYOBU-KAI (JKR) is a professional, international organization under the leadership of Yasuhiro (Takehiro) Konishi, 10th Dan.

The JKR has branches located all over the world under the guidance of Kiyoshi Yamazaki, 8th Dan, International Director and Chief Instructor. The style of karate taught by the JKR is called Shindo Jinen Ryu. This style was founded by Yasuhiro Konishi, who learned karate from Gichin Funakoshi, Chojun Miyagi, Kenwa Mabuni, and Choki Motobu. Additionally, Konishi Sensei studied extensively under the founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba. The JKR also has a lineage dating back to the 16th century traditions of Takenouchi Ryu Jujitsu. Training in the JKR is conducted in the traditional Japanese method, stressing discipline, consistent attendance, etiquette, and hard work. The karate training in the JKR is life-long, and can be continued regardless of age.

Modern training in Shindo Jinen Ryu Karate-do incorporates elements of karate, aikido, jujitsu, and kendo in the formal curriculum, with an emphasis on philosophy and education. The curriculum also emphasizes Zanshin (the ability of an exponent to gain dominance over an opponent through an alert state of mind) and maintenance of proper physical posture.

The purpose of training in Shindo Jinen Ryu Karate-do is to develop the whole human being, physically and mentally. Through long-term, dedicated training the student learns to develop and unite Shin (mind), Gi (technique), and Tai (body)

in proper proportions. The end result is awareness of one's moral obligations and place in society.

_____________________________________________________

http://www.jkr.com/index.php?option=...tory&Itemid=53

Morihei Ueshiba

Though Ryukyu traditional martial arts, Ryukyu Kenpo Tote Jitsu, and Karate-jitsu had started to be known throughout Japan, the history of its dissemination in the mainland Japan was still short and it could be said that they were considered to be by far inferior in every aspect of martial arts to Kendo and Judo.

The fact that Karate was still called "Karate-Jutsu" while Kendo and Judo were called with "Do" indicating the system. With a strong desire to develop the karate into one of the recognized martial arts by all means. Yasuhiro worked very hard to disseminate karate through the connections in the Jujitsu world. But the results were not satisfactory one. In the Kendo world, people who recognized karate like Hakudo Nakayama was a minority, and there was still a strong tendency to define karate a primitive art in which thrusting and kicking were representative arts. If someone remarked that karate was a kind of fencing without a sword, a lot kendo masters showed a fight against that kind of remarks. From the end of the 1920s, many people pointed out that not a few karate men lacked good manners and behavior. People who were in the Judo world denied unanimously the existence of karate, and there was even a movement in Kodo-kan which tried to introduce the karate into a part of Judo as a self-defense art. The reason why Gichin Funakoshi declined the frequent invitation to the Kodo-kan had a strong relationship with this.

Also the various schools of traditional martial arts didn't give any high evaluation of karate. "Essence of Japanese traditional martial arts was not to defeat the opponent completely, but to pin down or hold an outlaw asking him whether he would correct his conduct or not, and if not, arm or some parts of body would be dislocated, which meant a spirit of allowance to forgive the enemy was left even in the fight. "On the contrary", some of the traditional martial arts masters protested Yasuhiro saying that "karate stars abrupt thrusting or kicking. This is against the code of behavior for SAMURAI spirit." This kind of criticism was not so serious. But the more severe criticism generated by one of the martial arts experts was that forms of karate were not refined historically. This comment hit the weakest point of karate. Expert who made this comment was Morihei Ueshiba who developed Aiki-do later. This martial arts expert was standing unrivaled in the term of the strong and mysteriousness in Te beginning of Showa era together with the fact he mastered various martial arts such as Yagyu-Ryu, Hozoin-Ryu, Jyuken-Jutsu, and other traditional Japanese martial arts concentrating on Aiki-do Jujitsu of Daito-Ryu.

One anecdote tells that he didn't give any chance to a plural of high ranking kendo experts to hit him when he had a match fighting with them, and another anecdote tells that when he was surrounded by a plural of military polices, he disappeared instantly without being observed by the military polices, and another anecdote tells that when he fought with a grand champion of Manchuria wrestling, he threw the opponent with his little finger, and one of his followers Kozo Shiota a master (manager of Yoshinkan) observed Ueshiba fight with "Piston" Horiguchi a boxer holding down the opponent forward instantly with his little finger. Anyway, he was a first ranking martial artist who was referring to as "God of martial art".

Yasuhiro also entered in his club, but as Ueshiba didn't make any official announcement of Aikido developer yet at that time, the list of license for Yasuhiro which is still preserved carries "Daito-Ryu" and "Aioi-Ryu". When Yasuhiro demonstrated "kata of Heian" Shodan (now Nidan), he was suggested by Ueshiba to discard such martial arts because it didn't work at all. Later Yasuhiro commented that the most great and unrivaled master of martial arts I met so far (he was 83 years old at that time[c. 1973]) was Ueshiba Sensei.

But Yasuhiro's karate was entirely criticized by this great master whom Yasuhiro respected much. The point of Ueshiba's criticism was that "the martial arts with only rough and straight attack doesn't provide any usefulness...." To Ueshiba who believed that only circle movement was the ultimate goal of martial arts, straight attack such as thrust and kick seemed to be mastered quickly, but he could not feel any profoundness in the art and it seemed to him that the art couldn't catch up with the nobleness the martial arts should have at all. Yasuhiro explained the situation later. "I wouldn't like to stop my karate even if I was suggested to stop it because it didn't work out at all. I had responsibility for developing the karate into the recognized martial arts some day with the help of Aiki-do which would be accepted by my teacher Ueshiba. I was planning to show him my karate again, so I asked him to never mention to stop right away." (From memories of Yasuhiro on Karate).

Yasuhiro tried his best to find out the best solution to the above for almost eight months. "Ueshiba was a man having a divine inspiration rather than a man of martial artist. And he seemed a special man to me. His life was full of curious things. Therefore, I admired him and believed in him and what he said was my mental food and I tried by best so that I could be accepted by him." (memories on Karate by Yasuhiro). And when Ueshiba saw demonstration by Yasuhiro which was quite familiar to kata form of "Heian", he was satisfied and said tapping his laps "Mr. Konishi, the demonstration you did now was satisfactory to me, and that deserves well for mastering." This form which was demonstrated by Yasuhiro was developed and referred to as "TAISABAKI" body movement later. "Though it contained no complex movement, the form was consisted of continuous movement instead of pausing after each action. That is to say, the form didn't employ any single action, but employed a chain of action without pausing between them. Not an accumulation of single action, but a flow of movement. The demonstrations I had ever seen were a spell of movement like a puppet doll as Ueshiba pointed out."

At the same time, it is said that Yasuhiro learned from Ueshiba that the art had two kinds of spirit, one expressed externally and one expressed only in mind. Yasuhiro's incessant eagerness to acquire the secret of various kinds of martial arts brought him the chance to meet Seiko Fujita, the 14th generation of master of "Koga Ninjutsu" and made him to obtain the license from "Nanban Kito-Ryu", and to meet Motoro Kaneda of Yoshin Koryu", and made him to learn swift technique from Haunari Watanabe of "Shiba Shinyo-Ryu Jujitsu" and "Fusen-Ryu Jujitsu" from Eizaburo Nakayama and "Yagyu Shingan-Ryu" from Itsumi Sato.

The author has never heard any one who mastered so wider variety of martial arts as Yasuhiro Konishi. Yasuhiro learned the martial arts other than karate and tried to compare them with karate and adopted the arts which did not exist in the karate. His method was to employ the excellent skill form other sections of martial arts and discard what was not useful to his karate to attain the balance combination of various techniques in his karate. Everybody asked "Why are you so eager to acquire the secrets of other martial arts than karate?" He always replied that "I would like to improve karate to the level equal to Kendo and Judo which were traditional Japanese martial arts."

______________________________________________________

Seiryu - The Story Behind the Kata
http://www.jkr.com/index.php?option=...tory&Itemid=53

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 08-11-2009, 11:39 AM   #59
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote: View Post
You might want to look at the Ryobu-kai style. The founder of this style was a student of Morihei Ueshiba and O Sensei
Are Morihei Ueshiba and O'Sensei not one in the same? Maybe a / between the two names would be better... unless I am reading this wrong and am a hoplessly lost beginner..... .

Last edited by ninjaqutie : 08-11-2009 at 11:42 AM.

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~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:41 PM   #60
aikilouis
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

I guess the "and" served to separate the two parts of the sentence, not just the two names.

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Old 08-11-2009, 03:44 PM   #61
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
The founder of this style was a student of Morihei Ueshiba
and
Quote:
O Sensei had a hand in advising him in the development of a couple of the later katas.
That better?
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-10-2009, 04:08 AM   #62
JimCooper
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
You specifically stated that kicks to the head are "extremely rare" in kumite. I disagreed and provided raw, video evidence that kicks to the head are not rare in kumite.
See, the thing is, that you didn't show any such thing, and the problem is that you haven't considered the numbers. Let me explain.

I've been training for 20 years. Exactly none of that training is on youtube (because it was quite boring to watch). The ratio of kumite on youtube to the total amount of kumite done in the world is vanishingly small. Add up all the length of all the videos you found, or could find in a month, even, and divide that by the millions of hours spent by all the karate students in the world doing kumite every week. And that's just for one week, so a fairer test would be to find all the videos you could that had occurred in a one week timeframe.

People put stuff on youtube because they think it's interesting or unusual. Like kicking people in the head in kumite, for example. Just because you can find something on youtube doesn't mean it's commonplace; more often it means it isn't. It's noteworthy (ie out of the ordinary) in some way, and worth putting up for people to see.

My point was reinforced by another poster who can remember kicks that landed. They're rare, so they stand out. (And of course, if a good one does land, they're very powerful, and so tend to imprint themselves physically and mentally.)

If instead of sitting in front of a computer you were to actually visit a dojo, I think you'd find my point stands. Most people in the dojo will not be very good at head high kicking. You could watch kumite for weeks before seeing one land, although you'll see very many attempts.

But of course, there are some people who are very good at kicking. Some of their bouts are quite spectacular, and therefore end up on youtube. But even for these people, almost all of their sparring is NOT there. You only see the edited highlights.

Consider another example. You can find loads of footage/news article/etc of plane crashes on the internet. Because you can find it quickly, does that mean plane crashes are common? No it doesn't. Plane crashes are so rare that every one gets news coverage.

Your whole line of reasoning is flawed, so yes, I will back my 20 years of experience (which incidentally, has taken in quite a bit of the world) against your few minutes of youtube research.

Last edited by JimCooper : 12-10-2009 at 04:13 AM.
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Old 12-10-2009, 07:43 AM   #63
lbb
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Jim Cooper wrote: View Post
S
Your whole line of reasoning is flawed, so yes, I will back my 20 years of experience (which incidentally, has taken in quite a bit of the world) against your few minutes of youtube research.
Well, I guess you told him!

...five months later...
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:57 PM   #64
Anth
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

To jump back to the original topic and avoid the fun that is kumite arguments, I was graded to nidan in kamishin ryu karate (shotokan with a bit of wado ryu thrown in) in March after 8 years of training and started aikido in August and I like how the styles are totally different. It means that I don't get so confused going between classes and I like the change of being back at the other end of the dojo.

Some things cross between the two, especially when you start looking at bunkai (application of kata) in karate or when you're uke attacking with a punch. I've noticed that my karate techniques and combinations flow better since starting aikido while I know the basics of using body mechanics instead of strength (I'm not the strongest bloke on the planet by a long shot) too.

Oh, and on the subject of TKD being "Korean Karate", you'll find that Tang Soo Do is effectively Shotokan karate with a Korean twist. The kata have equivalent hyungs that are fairly similar (Heian ("peaceful mind") kata becoming Pyung Ahn ("peace and harmony") hyungs) and the basics are similar only with more emphasis on high kicks. Tae Kwon Do, while having some similar principles (as we're currently discussing on another forum), is more different than similar (if you know what I mean).
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:54 PM   #65
dps
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Boxing

David
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:30 AM   #66
David Yap
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Anthony Gaskell wrote: View Post
...Oh, and on the subject of TKD being "Korean Karate", you'll find that Tang Soo Do is effectively Shotokan karate with a Korean twist. The kata have equivalent hyungs that are fairly similar (Heian ("peaceful mind") kata becoming Pyung Ahn ("peace and harmony") hyungs) and the basics are similar only with more emphasis on high kicks. Tae Kwon Do, while having some similar principles (as we're currently discussing on another forum), is more different than similar (if you know what I mean).
Anthony,

Actually, the root of Tang Soo Do is from traditional Okinawa Karate - Tang Soo Do is the korean reading of "The Way of Chinese Hands". The root of TKD is from Shotokan Karate. The founder of TKD, General Choi, was awarded 2nd dan by Gichin Funakoshi, founder of Shotokan.

Regards

David Y
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Old 12-11-2009, 12:45 PM   #67
Anth
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

I didn't know that bit but it explains a lot
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:24 PM   #68
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Mark Murray,

Sick knockouts.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:46 PM   #69
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
Anthony,

Actually, the root of Tang Soo Do is from traditional Okinawa Karate - Tang Soo Do is the korean reading of "The Way of Chinese Hands". The root of TKD is from Shotokan Karate. The founder of TKD, General Choi, was awarded 2nd dan by Gichin Funakoshi, founder of Shotokan.

Regards

David Y
Just wanted to interject that there are lines of TKD that do not trace decent from General Choi. Choi is generally credited with coining the name TKD, but the technical background appears to have been much more of a comittee thing (unification of the Kwans) though most seem to have a Japanese influence to some degree. The Moo Duk Kwan lineage that I studied moves in a fashion totally different fashion (more similar to Karate) than what I saw of the Choi sine wave style.

There's some new books on the history of TKD that that I haven't gotten around to reading yet.

Pat

Last edited by Pat Togher : 12-17-2009 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:16 PM   #70
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
If you have not seen dvd's or trained with Ushiro Sensei of Shindoryu, then you should. His utilization of Ki in his karate is unlike anybody else out there. It is simply to best compliment to help your Aikido.

Marc Abrams

pm me if you want the particulars on how to train with him or get his books or dvd's
Exactly what I was thinking!

Very interesting guy. First saw him at the Aiki-Expo's

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Old 01-23-2010, 03:41 PM   #71
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Great post. I learned alot reading the thread.
From my experience, the lower the kick the quicker of course; and there are kicks designed to block or interrupt kicks (very low kicks).
From a practical point of view it can't hurt to learn some strikes and the conditioning that goes with them.
As far as high kicks go though....why place yourself in that vulnerable tenuous balance position? Especially the fancy spinning back kicks ...good for demonstations or professional fighters vs each other; but in self defence for the common person... stay grounded.

Manfred von Richtofen was the highest scoring Ace and he abhorred the loop.

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides
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Old 02-09-2010, 02:16 PM   #72
eyesman14
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

I just started training in aikido 5 months ago (loving it!) after training in shotokan karate since I was 8 ( I'm 31), I feel for the guys that have trouble with turning off the linearity of karate for the circularity of aikido but with that said I honestly think that I am better prepared for any street situation due to my exposure to both.
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Old 03-08-2010, 09:39 AM   #73
WilliB
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

I am also doing Aikikai Aikido and Shotokan, and I enjoy both. I donīt know enough to pontificate about cross-training in general, but I can say for sure that it would be a good thing for Aikido students to have at least some basic Karate Kihon training so that they actually can through a punch. (Likewise, I find that some people at Karate place look ridiculous in the occasional situation where they have to take a fall.)

Going back to the original poster, if he is interested in mixing the arts maybe he find a Yoseikan Budo place? That would seem tailor-made for him. Both Karate and Aikido, combined in a systematic way as I understand.
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Old 03-08-2010, 01:28 PM   #74
Russ Q
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

I've been trolling youtube lately and found Ashihara Karate USA.....these clips show a teacher (don't know his name) who is amazingly centered and doing much tai sabaki as part of his teaching....check it out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juP3I...eature=related
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Old 03-08-2010, 02:29 PM   #75
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

gotta admit, I was expecting to barf, but hey, that was pretty good. I'd really hate to fight that guy. I like how he applauded the student at the end when the student got something right. Not my chosen path, but dude was balanced, smooth, fast, powerfull. And some of the tai sabaki was surprisingly familiar.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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