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Old 12-04-2009, 10:14 AM   #76
C. David Henderson
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Down through the years in my Aikido experience, I have heard and read on pulp allot of stuff ....
Hint?

experience = heard & read?

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Old 12-05-2009, 08:56 AM   #77
Keith Larman
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

I'll guess I'll the sound of crickets chirping as a "no"...

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Old 12-05-2009, 10:39 AM   #78
Marc Abrams
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Well, part of me would really like to understand where Buck is coming from. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt figuring it might just be me not keying in on some world view I'm just not getting. Absent that, however, his posts seem superficial and naive at best. As a result the other part of me keeps telling me that he hasn't given any reason whatsoever to think he actually has anything more than a cursory understanding of things. And his avoidance of saying what style he studies is odd to me at best -- to me it's like refusing to say what color socks you wear. It's an aikido forum -- surely saying what you study (or don't for that matter) isn't exactly irrelevant. And since I think it might help understand where he's coming from it would be nice to know.

So it takes me back to the guys on the beach picking the pot residue out from under their nails -- I can accept that what they think is seriously deep for them is in fact seriously deep *for them*. Just not for me. And since I don't smoke the stuff there is little reason to bother joining in the discussion as it would simply be a waste of time all around. Just looking for some context to hopefully put some form or structure around Buck's posted thoughts. Otherwise it seems much more consistent with the stoners' thoughts than the thoughts of someone who studies Aikido.

Shrug. Seems really odd to me to not say what lineage you're in. It's not exactly a personal, private thing. But whatever...
Keith:

To the credit of people on this forum, nobody has initially dismissed the poster. It has only been through the experience that people have had with him over his posts that many people have simply dismissed this person as at best, a keyboard warrior with significant psychological issues. He has been given repeated opportunities to provide some foundations for his thoughts/postings, including the direct and honest answer as to real martial arts experience. He, unfortunately, is still acting like the Everready Bunny. The opportunities that have been presented him to use this forum as a place to change in a positive direction seem to allude him. That is genuinely unfortunate.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:49 PM   #79
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

It's the Energizer Bunny.

Not that that really has anything to do with our point, but AFAIK, Eveready does not have a bunny. They have a cat and a number 9.
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:26 PM   #80
Marc Abrams
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It's the Energizer Bunny.

Not that that really has anything to do with our point, but AFAIK, Eveready does not have a bunny. They have a cat and a number 9.
Mary:

Cleary points out that I am truly a TV idiot. Do not spend much time allowing watching the vapid stuff called tv. Sorry about that one! Thanks for the correction .

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-06-2009, 09:09 AM   #81
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

Marc, here ya go..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fILdYrxnrf8

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Old 12-06-2009, 02:10 PM   #82
Dan O'Day
 
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

A few posts back someone asked Buck where he trained. I respect a non-answer of that query. I don't advertise ( info in my profile ) where I train.

I don't know what Buck's motivations are for doing the same and they are not my business.

I don't advertise it simply because I do not wish my comments to be associated with the dojo I train at. If I headed a dojo I may feel differently, but I do not nor will I probably ever in this lifetime.

Viewpoints which I express on this forum may run philosophically counter, in some manner, to the concepts of aikido as put forth in the dojo I train at. Since I am not a spokesperson for that dojo - and have immense repsect for the chief instructor and the community - I would never want anything I say to possibly reflect poorly upon it or in any manner create any controversy.

Case in point: I do not believe the term "leader", and all it implies, is conducive to achieving a more peaceful world. This term is used, however, by both chief instructors at the the two dojos I have trained at. It is not my place to directly or indirectly assert my thoughts on the philosophy of aikido with regard to the way in which it is put forth at dojos I've trained at.

If I had my dojo information listed under my name and made such a comment it would be easy for one to infer a conflict on my part with my dojo and/or the chief instructor's teachings. This would be an incorrect inference. I have no conflict nor do I wish to ever convey the remote possibilty of a conflict. My place as a student is to respect what is taught at my dojo.

This does not mean I cannot think for myself. It simply means I, in no way, wish for those thoughts, if and when controversial, to be associated with a specific dojo.

Anyway, that's my take on Buck not having yet answered the question of where he trains. Of course it is also possible he simply hasn't been on the forum to see the post, or missed it or who knows? But again, that's simply not my business.

Last edited by Dan O'Day : 12-06-2009 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:39 PM   #83
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

No problem Dan. Understand your point of view.

However, do you see that how if you do not establish background etc, that it might impact your credibility?

When a poster uses words like "In my Experiences", and "Aikido is......" I think it is natural and justifiable for folks to ask those questions in order to understand what your background might be.

Failure to do so certainly is something to raise an eyebrow at and wonder why.

I hold all my instructor's and organization in high regard. I most certainly do not share all the same views that they do on every single aspect of aikido, philosophy, and training methodology.

I have also never had an issue with this as well.

My views are my views and it is very clear when I post them here.

I never espouse to represent my organization of my instructors view points.

But, okay, I can see how you might want to take the approach of confidentially that you want to take, and I respect that.

However, again, once you start going down the road making declarative statements about what things are and are not, I believe you have to make your credentials public if you expect anyone to take you serious on the subject, especially ones that may be contrary or slightly askew from the norm.

As this is a lightly moderated forum, it is pretty much open for anyone to say anything they want and I respect that and I think that is also a good thing, especially to prevent group think and have one certain view point control the content and direction of the content.

However, along this same vein...it gets old and tiresome having to sort through or have people that come here looking for quality information have to wade a deep pile of unqualified dribble that does not get held accountable.

So, I also respect the guys like Keith Larman that will stand up and ask the tough questions in this thread.

The amount of respect and seriousness given to the topic is typically reciprocal here I have found.

The only thing that is consistently asked of Buck when he post about his "Experience" is that he qualify it, which he repeatedly has not. As such, I think it is appropriate to assume that he is a Keyboard Warrior until proven otherwise. A number of us have tried to work with Buck in this area as Marc Abrams has stated, so this is not a simple issue of heckling or bullying.

Hence why I have chosen to refrain from responding over the past week to this thread as I really have nothing good, positive, or productive to add.

So you have to make a very frustrating choice. Ignore the post all together in hopes that failure to provide any "energy" back to the post positive or negative might help resolve the issue. Or you meet it head on and respond with an attempt to hold it accountable.

Of late I have taken the choice of ignoring it.

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Old 12-06-2009, 02:46 PM   #84
C. David Henderson
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

Dan,

I respect your reasons, and have similar feelings. If you look at Buck's "biography," which he chose to add to his user profile, you'll see he states he has practiced with different teachers and is unaffiliated. As with many of his posts, however, there is a decided vagueness in detail that could be taken in a number of ways -- silence being pretty ambiguous.

The point being, for me, that he's already got a built-in protection against the concern you raise.

Honestly, I really don't know the extent of his training, and I agree with Keith that one needn't have trained to be interested in discussing. Nonetheless, not only does the text of his "biography" come across as coy, it resonates with the way he's responded in a number of instances when someone wants to clarify what he's talking about or his basis for saying something.

Sadly, while I think he has made efforts to be less confrontational in his posts, and to denude his writing by inserting the word "stuff" as a verbal tic to soften his words, the reception you see in this thread is one that has built up over time, thread by thread, poster by poster.

2 sad cents.
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Old 12-06-2009, 03:03 PM   #85
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

I understand Dan's perspective, and agree with Kevin's. Less impetus, less thread.

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-06-2009, 04:16 PM   #86
Dan O'Day
 
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

Kevin and David, I understand the views you share. I have not ever posted here with a frequency which might allow me to "get to know" someone ( as much as one ever can in the cyber world ).

Thus my position was based on that alone. I have been a member of other online communities ( one for 12 years ) and I do understand how it may become frustrating to converse with one who does not supply well..."credentials", when making declarative statements.

One way I have found out of that, often times, obstruction in communication between fellows is to speak solely from personal perspective. That's why I like to say "I" alot. It's hard to get sidetracked when discussing viewpoints if everyone party to the discussion is aware of the subjectivity of the viewpoints shared.

With regard to this particular thread discussion, I am not familiar with "Archer's Paradox" and, when initially commenting, chose to not even explore it since it is "paradox" alone which interests me.

In other words, I don't need no steenkin' Archer.

I do realize much of the discussion thus far on this thread has had to do with the specifics of "Archer's" paradox and how it may or may not relate to the paradoxes most commonly found in aikido.

I guess I didn't have much to say on that and instead commented on paradox minus the Archer. Hmmm...it could be that none of this is moot to my real point - which I think I've forgotten- and that in fact all I am doing now is practicing my typing.

So on that note, I wish you all well as I must go and prepare for Sunday evening class at my dojo of mystery.
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Old 12-06-2009, 05:05 PM   #87
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

Thanks Dan. Understanding the paradox of violence and peace is very important I think. It is of utmost importance to understand I believe if we are to have any hope for long term sustainable peace in the world.

In that respect I am all ears when someone wants to share their experiences, discoveries, and joys on the subject of paradoxes.

I agree that one need not even practice one day of aikido to participate and share in the conversation or the experience of that as long as they are being genuine, upfront, and sincere with the subject at hand.

What I can tell you is that my personal understanding of the topic of the paradox of the so called "art of peace" has changed over time and I expect that it will continue to evolve and change.

My ideas used to be somewhat simplistic and idealistic. Today, however, I find the paradox to be much more complex and not so clear cut in some respects. In others, I think it is much simpler. (that in itself is a paradox!!)

Sometimes there is no hidden meaning or no paradox at all and that is the irony of the very paradox.

Sometimes staring down the glide path of a punch is simply what it is. It is the ability to recognize that this thing is coming for your nose and is going to hit you square between the eyes is what is important and what it is all about at that moment.

No hidden meaning, no paradox what-so-ever. Simply understanding that bad things happen sometimes and that you need to be prepared for them and if you survive, picking up the pieces, learning the lessons that are there to be learned and driving on so that it doesn't happen again is all that is really there.

No paradox at all. Second and Third order effects? yes. Taking the time to distill what caused this "point in time" to occur, understanding all the events that led to this happening is what we are here to study mostly I believe.

If we can learn those things, much of what lay in our selves as a factor of causation, then we can stop them from occurring maybe in the future again.

Sometimes they are not our fault...and we need to identify those things and let ourselves off the hook for those things too!

If there is ANY paradox to be learnt in Aikido, I think THIS is where the paradox lay.

Not in some transference or allegory of Archers or Flowers, Poems or any other thing we like to impose on budo.

The more I learn and study in Budo, the more convinced that the real lessons in budo come from simply practicing in the dojo, blood, sweat, and sometimes tears. Good hard work.

Though, for many I think, it is an exercise in mental allegories, allusions, possibilities, and wishes.

Hey, I suppose if it makes you happy...drive on....to each, his own!

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Old 12-07-2009, 10:13 AM   #88
Keith Larman
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

There is a certain sort of uncomfortable feeling with these sorts of threads. And I understand that. But I came from a research background and discussion means discussion. It means trying to clarify and flesh out ideas. And sometimes it means challenging someone to do more than simply declare something to be the case. In Aikido we tend to "go with the flow" a bit too much sometimes, at least IMHO. Things that are blatantly false or nonsensical are just that -- false and nonsense. If something isn't particularly well fleshed out or clear then I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask the poster to explain things a bit more clearly. They are under no obligation to do so, of course, but if we consider a discussion forum like this to be a place where all levels may gather then there is a certain responsibility that we try to be clear and coherent.

With respect to asking about someone's background I tried to be quite clear about why I was asking. I was hoping that maybe some of my inability to understand Buck's posts (and as others have noted this observation goes to many posts, not just this particular thread) was due to me not being clued in to a style specific "Aikido worldview" that Buck is posting from. He went on to make yet another reference to a "violence paradox" and compared it to a link on the site for the style I study. I'd like to think I know a little about that as a long time student of the style and his post was again, to me at least, well, just wrong. And it makes the point that he clearly doesn't know how we use the phrase he was discussing, but of course that is understandable as he isn't to the best of my knowledge a student in our style. Which circles back to why I asked in the first place...

Obviously no one has to qualify themselves. And being private is just fine. I was hoping Buck would share some of that because for the life of me I can't make heads or tails out of most of his posts -- they read to me as simplistic, naive generalizations. I would like to think that the disconnect is me, but apparently I'm not alone. I was hoping having some understanding of where he is coming from might help me understand.

But the other side of the coin is that there is no reason why I should need to understand Buck. I've tried, but I'll admit that he is either so incredibly brilliant that it is beyond my reach or he is so far in left field he's in the bleachers...

No one needs my validation. And I'll repeat that I think all levels of experience from zero to a lifetime should post their thoughts. It is just sometimes helpful to know what that experience is so one can better understand the context of their posts.

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Old 12-07-2009, 10:15 AM   #89
Keith Larman
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

And another thought after I hit post...

I also worry that some "declarations" on forums like this if left unchallenged will end up being read and accepted by those who come along who are new to it all. Silence is all too often taken as tacit acceptance. This is not the case, of course, but sometimes someone has to stand up and say "Hey, wait a minute..." just to make sure *someone* says it.

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Old 12-07-2009, 10:24 AM   #90
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

I'm reminded of a passage in one of my favorite books, "Imajica" by Clive Barker. Two travelers are being hassled by some border cops or the like, and being told to state their business. They reply that they're traveling to see all the famous sites, including (one says) the Merrow Ti' Ti'. "Ah yes, the Merrow Ti' Ti'!" the other one exclaims, playing along, "We couldn't pass through without seeing the Merrow Ti' Ti'!" They get past the border cops, but then hijinks ensue, and they end up departing the land at a high rate of speed. As they're leaving, the second traveler expresses sorrow that they never got to see the Merrow Ti' Ti'. "We couldn't have done that, because there's no such thing -- I just made it up," said the first traveler.

As a very junior student of aikido, I happily claim for myself the privilege of saying at every opportunity, "The Merrow Ti' Ti'? What's that?" I don't have to stroke my chin and say, "Ah yes, the Merrow Ti' Ti'" -- or the Aikido Paradox, if you prefer. I don't expect other people to feed me information that I should be able to obtain for myself, but when someone trots out an ambiguous phrase like "the Aikido Paradox" -- one on which there no clear consensus definition -- I think it's perfectly sensible to request a definition of terms. If the request is not honored, I think that says more about the person who proposed the term than it does about me.
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Old 12-07-2009, 12:56 PM   #91
C. David Henderson
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Re: The Aikido Paradox

I was cleaning my bookshelf last night and dusted off my copy of Imajica; couldn't bring myself to put it in the goodwill pile. It's a book I'm likely to reread....maybe more than once.
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