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Old 11-26-2009, 07:34 PM   #1
AllanF
Location: Shenyang
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Aiki-age theory

As a taiji guy i have been lurking here for a while and enthralled with some of the disscussions about IP/IS and so it is with empty cup that i ask about Aiki-age.

I no experience in Daito-ryu or aikido i have become highly interested in this practice method. As i feel to be able to move freely no matter how strongly you are held would be very useful. I understand that for some people this will be pathetically low level and may no warrent further discussion however i would simply implore you to humour me.

At the moment when testing path flows in taiji or through push-hands i find if an opponent puts force onto my chest/shoulder/upper arm via push/grab etc. i can neutralize and send an opponents force down to the ground and then 'bounce' it back combined with an internal turning to off balance him (though at the moment i can't do it as much as i would like). I find that the further down the arms someone grabs me the more difficult it is, this maybe simply a psychological block on my part.

I have decided to try and work it out by using my lovely wife as a guinea pig. I have a theory that (in taiji terms) the part where i am grabbed (assuming i am grabbed on the topside of the arm) should be yin and as i am trying to raise my hands it should flow back towards my dan tian, conversely the opposite side of the grab point on the arm should be yang and flow forwards towards the opponent using the actual place of contact as the pivot point. (This is taking for granted the fact that the shoulders should be dropped/relaxed along with the elbows)

So i was hoping that some of the members experienced in Daito-ryu etc. would be able to give me some guidance on this matter?

gratefully
AllanF
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Old 11-26-2009, 08:08 PM   #2
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aiki-age theory

Quote:
Allan Featherstone wrote: View Post
At the moment when testing path flows in taiji or through push-hands i find if an opponent puts force onto my chest/shoulder/upper arm via push/grab etc. i can neutralize and send an opponents force down to the ground and then 'bounce' it back combined with an internal turning to off balance him (though at the moment i can't do it as much as i would like).
So how does it work? He grabs your upper body and you 'bounce' him using the lower body and the ground. Wouldn't that say that there is a good connection between the lower body and the upper body? How do you see it?
Quote:
I find that the further down the arms someone grabs me the more difficult it is, this maybe simply a psychological block on my part.
Or a training deficit in the sense that the connection from lower body to upper body is not so good in some positions, so maybe you need to figure out how to train that connection, increase your power, increase the strength of your dantien, and so forth? I.e., maybe it's something that's not a "how to" but a "oh well, looks like I need to train specifically at whole-body connection" and whatever other body tricks/skills that will give me the ability to do what I want?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-26-2009, 08:31 PM   #3
AllanF
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Re: Aiki-age theory

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So how does it work? He grabs your upper body and you 'bounce' him using the lower body and the ground. Wouldn't that say that there is a good connection between the lower body and the upper body? How do you see it?
Well first i will state that i am a student not a teacher and so still have a long road in front of me. Second i am not sure i can adequately illicit my ideas on paper (internet). So bare with me if it sounds inconsistent.

At the moment i think the idea is that if an opponent grabs my chest (say right side for argument's sake) then you relax the point of contact and the waist and send the force down to the opposite foot (left foot in this example). It also cause the chest to fractionally become concave, fractionally! Then by relaxing again via lifting the baihui point on the head and at the same time it relaxes the lower portion of the spine thus causing the force to come back up. This way a spiral of power is produced and it literally feels like you are doing nothing at all. As if the opponent is actually straightening you up for you and throwing/unbalancing himself. Well at least that is where i am at the moment. Like i said just a humble student.

You are probablly right with regard to not having the connection right yet, i freely admit that if i did then i would be able to do this at will unfortunately i can not!
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:48 PM   #4
JW
 
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Re: Aiki-age theory

Hi Allan-
If you don't get many helpful replies, please consider that rather than being "pathetically low level," real aiki-age is actually beyond most people (we're working on it though!).

One thing I can say is I think the fact that it is harder when grabbed further down the arm is not a psychological block, but like Mike said, a result of a physical failure caused by increased strain on the tissues that support the "connection" that you both alluded to. Not having strong continuous connection to the wrist is already an overwhelming problem for me-- and then on top of that when there is no "ki" connection, what do we do-- we end up trying to use muscle because ki is lacking, and then that really messes the whole thing up. (Letting muscle kick in could be seen as a psychological failure I guess, so maybe that's what you mean.. but still, the original problem is physical I think.)
--JW
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Old 12-01-2009, 04:06 PM   #5
DH
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Re: Aiki-age theory

Well another way to look at it is "How far down can you go to make "up?"
Can you manifest aiki age or kokyu with the back of your knees?
Dan
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:25 PM   #6
AllanF
Location: Shenyang
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Re: Aiki-age theory

Thanks for the replies.
Yeah it is clear that my connection is lacking. But "man man lai" as they say here in China (slowly slowly come). One think my teacher said that has me thinking is that when contact is made the point of contact should be like the meat of a well cooked chicken in that it will just fall off the bone. (ie there is nothing in the mussel and the bone is the thing that moves) At least that is what i think he is saying.

Dan
"How far down can you go to make "up?" : Are you referring to how far you can sink the opponent's power and thus getting to a point where it will naturally return? Sort of like a cam-shaft? At the moment, though sometimes i can sink it down to my feet i sometime get it stuck at my hip. This is were i need to develop the courage to relax again and let it go.

In regard to manifesting aiki-age with the back of your knee could you elaborate a little on that?

Any info other have would also be of great help.
regards
Allan
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:12 PM   #7
JW
 
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Re: Aiki-age theory

Quote:
Allan Featherstone wrote: View Post
Are you referring to how far you can sink the opponent's power and thus getting to a point where it will naturally return?
Hi Allan, I thought you meant in the original post that you are trying to bring it all the way to the ground, and then the ground does what it does-- it provides a counter-push "naturally" as you point out. So in other words, unless you've connected the opponent all the way to ground, you have nothing, right? In other words if you get your connection mucked up at the hip, can you do anything at all like aiki-age? (In such a case you may have point of contact all the way to dan tien connected, so maybe you have something there?)
BTW I think Dan meant how low can the point of contact (starting point) be before you cannot do aiki age anymore, in other words, the lower you get grabbed, the more conditioning you need in order to have a chance for an actively controllable "up" force. (yes?)
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Old 12-02-2009, 07:20 PM   #8
AllanF
Location: Shenyang
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Re: Aiki-age theory

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Hi Allan, I thought you meant in the original post that you are trying to bring it all the way to the ground, and then the ground does what it does-- it provides a counter-push "naturally" as you point out. So in other words, unless you've connected the opponent all the way to ground, you have nothing, right? In other words if you get your connection mucked up at the hip, can you do anything at all like aiki-age? (In such a case you may have point of contact all the way to dan tien connected, so maybe you have something there?)
BTW I think Dan meant how low can the point of contact (starting point) be before you cannot do aiki age anymore, in other words, the lower you get grabbed, the more conditioning you need in order to have a chance for an actively controllable "up" force. (yes?)
Hi Jonathan

Yeah that is what i mean, bringing the opponets force all the way to the ground and returning it, though i feel that it does not come naturally back (ie of it's own accord) rather that it is lead back up the back through the crown of the head and over the opponent (as if covering him in a blanket so to speak). (One problem i have is that i tend to be impatient and get ahead of myself, ie try to bring the force back up before i have brought it to the ground properly.)

And i would agree that if you don't let it go all the way down and it gets "jammed" at the hip then to do something like Aiki-age is very difficult and i end up using strength. Which is no use...especially when you are a wee short-arse like me! You can use the rotation of the dan tian (hara?..i think it is in Japanese, forgive me on that still trying to match up the terminology). But i would guess it isn't as effective as sending it to the ground.

As for how far down the contact point is before i can't do it, well it was at the wrist that there was a break down, as i can feel myself tensing at the contact point and not relaxing there, so i need to work on that. Will have to enlist the help of my lovely assistant (my wife) to help me with that!
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Old 12-03-2009, 11:11 AM   #9
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Aiki-age theory

Hi Allan,
I found this link< .
Thanks to Roosvelt Freeman.

Don't know if it's useful to `ya. I thought it was relevant and an interesting description.
Josh
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Old 12-03-2009, 04:40 PM   #10
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aiki-age theory

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Allan,
I found this link< .
Thanks to Roosvelt Freeman.

Don't know if it's useful to `ya. I thought it was relevant and an interesting description.
Josh
Yes. Very interesting.

Quote:
In Yin ("female") mode it can be used to dissipate and neutralise the force of an incoming opponent by "turning it into an empty place."

When Silk Reeling Skill is used in Yang ("male") mode the spiral movement "collects" muscle force from around the whole body by means of a sort of rising "shock wave" that rides on top of normal body movement. It is first dropped down from the dantian (diaphragm area) to the legs then "bounced" back up the body with additional energy added by untwining the torso as the "wave" rises. Finally this force is "discharged" in the extremities of the body (fist, elbow, shoulder) on contact with an opponent in a frightening pulse of concentrated momentum.

Often both Yin/Yang aspects are combined so that the force of an incoming opponent is "re-vectored." In other words the Silk-Reeling can be used to "rebound" the force of an incoming opponent back upon himself. The faster the attack the faster the rebound - much like objects thrown at a fast spinning top."
Like a spinning top, eh?... what an interesting metaphor.

"Shock wave" is a accurate description -- not a metaphor. In aerodynamics, a shock wave occurs at the sound barrier because air at that dynamic pressure passes from an compressible fluid to incompressible fluid. It is a discontinuous boundary with large threshold energies. Discontinuous changes of sign create shears.

In other words, "Yang" as the poster describes it is a shear in the compressive phase of the wave; "Yin" is a shear in the rarefaction phase of the wave. Since positive and negative they cannot combine at the same point in the same plane without cancelling -- combining them as fully as possible creates a maximal shear -- a torsional shear of simultaneous tension and compression, offset by 90 degrees or Juuji.

The variations of type, structure, and method of engaging forms of such oscillation with aiki are laid out in a formula ( I'll lay it out reductively; traditionally, its the other way around):-

Hachiriki -- Eight powers (various forms of oscillation)

Shikon -- Four souls (the four 90-degree wave phases))

Sangen --Three origins or elements (negative, positive and zero relative velocity) and

Ichirei -- One spirit (Ki -- or speaking mechanically angular momentum -- which is simply motion defined about one center of observation.

Aiki-age and aiki-sage involve applying this principle to accentuate and do some nifty trickery on the spinal reflex systems of the body.

Or -- it's black arts and magic -- Clarke's law applies.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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