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Old 11-30-2009, 07:55 PM   #26
Dan O'Day
 
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

We regularly practice a "walking" randori in the dojo where I train. I have found this to be very helpful.

Ironically, at first it seemed, the high speed randoris were much easier. I don't feel an irony with that anymore. High speed attackers are much more prone to being thrown - directed along their way - simply due to their enertia.

The slow speed practice remains a difficult but rewarding study for me. To focus on a blend and the subtleties of directing uke(s) as they move toward nagi....wow, that is very cool stuff.

And for me, a relative newcomer to the art, the walking randori continually helps me learn to respond versus react to the attack ( conflict ).

The street stuff...though I enjoy reading what folks have to say, I'm not particularly interested in discussing/debating it. It seems pretty straightforward to me. Aikido training will improve my response to any street incident.

Last edited by Dan O'Day : 11-30-2009 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:42 PM   #27
JO
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

Wow, talk about reviving an ancient thread. Before today, the last post dates back to when this shodan was a 5th kyu.

I have often thought, and continue to think that a lot of the criticisms of aikido training can be mostly addressed by increasing the intensity and decreasing the pre-planned nature of ukemi, at least some of the time. Interestingly, my last two classes were n this direction. One was a free practice on Friday where I spent half an hour with a partner with each of us refusing to give away our centers. Not many clean techniques, and not working towards speed or ultra intensity, but I was drained by the end and it may me focus a lot about maintaining my own posture, keeping myself in a safe position and in the importance as nage of not getting sucked into a game of tussling (aka, bad judo). This is aikido, don't fight; enter! cut!

Tonight we did multiple attacker randori where our instructor asked the attackers to actually gang up on uke and try to drag him down. Again, this wasn't at ultra high, we're out to kill you, intensity. But in this case, the speed was greater than usual for our training. A good lesson in humility for all of us, and again, a lot to think about.

I would never have all or even most training be of this type. But I don't think it is possible to maintain aikido as a martial art without exploring in these types of directions on a regular basis.

Everybody, at all levels, find partners you trust and mix it up once in a while!

Jonathan Olson
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:06 PM   #28
mickeygelum
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

Quote:
You can take a full speed shihonage ukemi as long as the nage places your hand against your shoulder and does not stretch out the arm in the breaking position.
Then you are not properly executing shihonage.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:34 PM   #29
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

We practice as hard and fast a randori as I've seen at any other school.

We have very few injuries (knock wood). We practice all common Aikido techniques, including shihonage and everything in the kyo waza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGJCl6IS_xQ

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Old 12-01-2009, 12:20 AM   #30
jss
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

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Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Then you are not properly executing shihonage.
Why not? Is there a substantial flaw in doing it like that? Or is it just not the way it should be done in aikido?
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:44 AM   #31
dalen7
 
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Re: Let me simplify my question.

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George Smith wrote: View Post
Why? Because you just can't do striking in practice as you would do on the street. If you wear protective equipment, the effect of the strike is not the same and if you don't wear equipment you must pull the atemis to not injure your uke. It is just not the same. It can't be. And this has been a problem with martial arts in general for as long as I am aware.

But if indeed we can use full speed movements in practicing Aikido (by excluding locks and atemis) then we can practice what would happen in a street situation in the dojo with no compromise.
Personally locks are my favorites, as they represent what actually have the potential of working in Aikido.
[Im thinking more of one on one fights that may arise due to various circumstances. Honestly I haven't made it up to the full-scale multi-attack yet. Im of the mind of just walking away.]

As for atemi with equipment not being the same, dunno.
There is the tendency to think that protective equipment dulls all pain. The fact is that as a younger person where this may seem to be the case, as one grows older and perhaps gets out of shape, any sustained beating, with or without protective equipment, will get to you.

The guys who are in the ring who make it look so easy have had their bodies adjusted turned into virtual punching bags... much like the guys who punch their hands into rice so that when they strike someone with their fist it doesnt cut open on the bridge of someones nose.

So I would say dont discount MMA gloves [they are pretty thin anyway, I would tend to go with the MMA sparring gloves which are a bit thicker but let you try out your Aikido techniques.]

Personally, atemi and Aikido are one in the same.
There was a point in my training at the beginning where I thought a conflict could be resolved with a magic pin or throw that didnt hurt uke. - but truth is, the harder the attack, the harder the fall.

If the guy is centered, how do you take that center... probably going to be a knee to the chest, and elbow strike to the face. [wouldnt really recommend the elbow strikes even with head-gear.]

Truth is, there is a magic bullet, and that is staying center and not getting involved in the conflict.

Similar to you, I want to take my Aikido to the next level - as I have mentioned in another thread, I would like to mix my Aikido with Thai Boxing.

What I have found is that my body is not in the shape currently to jump in with a Thai boxer for training. [not as springy as I was a decade or so ago... working on that.]

Once Im able to better condition my body, and I am able to get MMA gloves, I believe I will have some fun with it. - until then I can go through simulations of course, the typical Aikido hypothetical scenarios, etc.

But as someone pointed out, Aikido does seem to be stuck where the Uke doesnt try to regain his center to keep Tori on his toes... granted, there is no reason this shouldnt happen, and though not necessary, something that a live training with protective equipment could assist with.

As another poster pointed out, its around Sandan, etc. when you can really start flowing from one technique to another, and going for it. I feel this is way to long. This is something that should be nailed down in the upper kyu levels - and in truth should be addressed at the lower kyus.

The structure, methodology, of how Aikido is taught seems to be the issue and its one of those things you have to figure out on your own. That is why I mentioned it would be good just to give everyone in the dojo some gloves and let them go for it.

Often certain fundamental concepts just seem to be falling through the cracks, and people hang around at a basic understanding for a long time. [I take that back, they get it, but they cant demonstrate it as they dont get it... get it?]

Its been said before, sometimes, you just got to feel it.
Many people are in delusion as to what would work or not work, when in a real situation they would probably fall at the first strike cause they are out of shape. [first question is, "Rocky can you go the distance"]

... and I will add, I believe Aikido [for me] is learning how not to get into a situation where a fight could happen.
This really could be expounded on, and is worthy of contemplation - as this is the ultimate solution.

The rest is for sport and show.

Anyway - I have babbled on enough, and I probably have made a great example of someone who is unable to communicate exactly what it is Im thinking concerning this. lol

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 12-01-2009 at 02:52 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 12-01-2009, 06:27 AM   #32
DonMagee
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

I've spent the last few months boxing. I can say that wearing headgear and getting hit in the face with a boxing gloved fist hurts just about as bad as a ungloved fist. The difference is I'm not getting cut or my nose broken.

It still jolts my head back, forces me to close my eyes, takes my balance, knocks my block off, etc.

That said, I've always believed the best type of self defense training is one where your attackers have a well defined goal. Tell 3 ukes to do whatever it takes to tackle you to the ground and hold you there. It will be 100% different then any normal randori you have ever performed.

In jiujitsu we do a drill where we put one guy in the middle. Everyone walks in a circle around the edge of the mat. The coach touches each person as they walk by him. If he squeezes your arm, then you can attack the person in the middle (attempt to take him to the ground) anytime you want at full force before you reach the coach again. The person in the middle can use any of his training to defend this. As the person continues to succeed, then the coach will tag two, three, sometimes even four guys. Whatever it takes until the nage eventually fails. You can't "win" this form of randori, all you can do is hope to survive until the coach yells time.

I remember the first time I tried it. I had no problem dealing with the first guy. Then as he was keeping the pressure on me, a guy I didn't even see can behind me and football tackled my legs right out from under me and I basically did a backflip and landed on my belly. It was a huge eye opener for me. The game changes massively when your ukes are not just trying to give you an attack, but actually trying to succeed at a goal.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-01-2009, 08:19 AM   #33
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

Quote:
Jim Ludwig wrote: View Post
George: What comes up for me is nearly the opposite concern that you have voiced: Instead of worrying that full speed will hurt uke, my concern is that in a dojo, uke's attacks simply are not realistic enough. A skilled real attacker will not waltz in like a zombie and give his center to you, which is what we tend to do in conventional dojo practice. My experience has been that at higher speeds, along with a higher degree of "sincerity" from uke, most aikido techniques don't work most of the time. Uke just pulls out of them.

(I did one such session with a friend on the mat, after everyone had left. As uke I brought my full intelligence, and though he was a nidan while I was a second qu, again and again I was able to extend out of his usual aikido techniques.

There was one exception, which I should report. While going truly at full speed, he did catch me unaware on a kotogaishe (sp?). It was very similar to a sucker punch in that I just didn't see it coming.
He took me down hard, in a high fall. On the mat it was a great experience, though on the street it would definitely not have been in uke's interest. But my main point is that for that one time of success, there must have been at least 20 failures.)

So to me, speed is just one variable to take into account with regard to realism, while the sincerity/competence of uke is another. We might go so far as to say that uke can show up at one of three different levels:

Level 1: Zombie walks in and virtually throws himself.

Level2: Uke walks in and will allow you to take his center if you are skilled enough to do so.

Level 3: Uke comes in mindful of protecting his center. If you take it, he will strive instantly to move so as to regain his center. To throw him you have to take his center and keep adjusting to his adjustments. And uke's center is floating rather than locked so you don't know exactly where and when he will be....

My experience is that most dojos limit themselves to Levels 1 and Level 2, and to me, this represents a weakness in training that goes beyond the speed issue. What will happen to the typical student, regardless of years of training, when in the street he makes his move, expecting uke to happily comply,only to find that uke makes an adjustment and the aikido technique fails? What price will we pay for years of protecting our egos? : )

In his Attackproof book, John Perkins makes a passing reference to this. The way he languages it is that it is imperative to train with an "uncooperative" uke from the beginning in order to truly develop the grace necessary to deal with a street attack.

My sense is that Perkins is right, and for me, this trumps a concern regarding the speed (alone) of the training. To me, the challenge is to simulate an intelligent degree of "non-cooperativeness" while still guarding against undue risk of injury.... Jim
You do realize you just resurrected a 9-year old topic, right?
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:44 AM   #34
Victoria Pitt
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

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Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
You do realize you just resurrected a 9-year old topic, right?
Zombies are the new Vampires.

~Do one thing each day that scares you...~
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:48 AM   #35
mickeygelum
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

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Why not? Is there a substantial flaw in doing it like that? Or is it just not the way it should be done in aikido?
The biomechanics are flawed. You do not have to cause the joint destructions, but you still have to maintain the broken posture.

A well verse judoka, or BJJ practicioner, will draw you in and use that to take your posture.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:54 AM   #36
mickeygelum
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

Quote:
Zombies are the new Vampires.
Vampires know how to party and dress, Zombies eat alot and have intense BO...
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Old 12-01-2009, 12:24 PM   #37
Conrad Gus
 
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

FWIW, I had an interesting discussion on this very topic with my Sensei. His point of view was that at full speed, it is unrealistic to apply shihonage, etc. to attackers.

The purpose of training techniques is to learn the principles of aikido which can then be applied spontaneously to any situation. Sure, nikkyo might come up, but it is more likely to be something spontaneous that does not look like an exact technique. (Takemusu)

The training that we do daily on the mat is designed to ingrain these principles into our natural movement. What happens when you go full speed with people that actually try to hurt you will depend on how sincerely you trained.

I think it is not necessary to exactly simulate the conditions for which you are ultimately attempting to train. It's quite impossible, when you think about it.
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Old 12-01-2009, 12:38 PM   #38
Walter Martindale
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

Wow. That is an old thread.
Couple of comments. One sensei had a session where the ikkyo was such a sudden trip to the ground that uke (me) didn't really know what happened. Another sensei likened the slower (grading style) kihon ikkyo to using uke's head like a push broom.
A shihan (Kawahara) at a seminar once told us that "mukashi" (in the old days) ikkyo was finished by pinning the elbow and lifting the hand... Not nice, either way. Jun's comments from 2000 match up with my dojo sensei (in Regina SK in the 90s) showing us a rather brutal and sudden ikkyo that involved a bit of movement and a spiraling cut with tegatana. splat - huh? what happened?
Walter
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:37 PM   #39
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Wow. That is an old thread.
Dude, totally missed the date - it is indeed quite old.

- dAlen

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Old 12-02-2009, 01:25 AM   #40
Aikibu
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I've spent the last few months boxing. I can say that wearing headgear and getting hit in the face with a boxing gloved fist hurts just about as bad as a ungloved fist. The difference is I'm not getting cut or my nose broken.

It still jolts my head back, forces me to close my eyes, takes my balance, knocks my block off, etc.

That said, I've always believed the best type of self defense training is one where your attackers have a well defined goal. Tell 3 ukes to do whatever it takes to tackle you to the ground and hold you there. It will be 100% different then any normal randori you have ever performed.

In jiujitsu we do a drill where we put one guy in the middle. Everyone walks in a circle around the edge of the mat. The coach touches each person as they walk by him. If he squeezes your arm, then you can attack the person in the middle (attempt to take him to the ground) anytime you want at full force before you reach the coach again. The person in the middle can use any of his training to defend this. As the person continues to succeed, then the coach will tag two, three, sometimes even four guys. Whatever it takes until the nage eventually fails. You can't "win" this form of randori, all you can do is hope to survive until the coach yells time.

I remember the first time I tried it. I had no problem dealing with the first guy. Then as he was keeping the pressure on me, a guy I didn't even see can behind me and football tackled my legs right out from under me and I basically did a backflip and landed on my belly. It was a huge eye opener for me. The game changes massively when your ukes are not just trying to give you an attack, but actually trying to succeed at a goal.
Excellent training paradigm for Randori and it brings up another point...Multiple Attackers often work together to achieve that goal These coordinated attacks are rarely featured in most Aikido Randori...

WIlliam Hazen
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:24 PM   #41
Daniel Alexander
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Re: Full Speed Randori and Self Defense

In the street and in the dojo both may happen: a punch may be thrown, or a kick, or maybe a grab or a choke. The difference is this: intent. Much has been said about nages and their responses. However, and uke in a dojo will not come at you like someone in the street. An attacker in the street intends to injure, maim, kill, sexually assault, etc. If when uke comes with a strike you can put your hands down and receive the blow, followed up by a kick to the groin and a stomp on the head once you are down, the the street is being approximated. The energy of malicious intent can't be manufactured or reproduced. Therefore, we have the opportunity when in the street to practice discretion, alertness and compassion and when that assault comes it will be a whole different animal. We all must walk in the street and will prosper if we can do that with the same respect as in the dojo.
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