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Old 11-27-2009, 08:18 AM   #26
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: YouTube: Push Test to Nikkyo

very interesting. mark, you switched position too fast for my eyes to follow (getting old) and have not figured out how to slow down the video yet. maybe doing it more slowly with you being able to pick up one leg at a time and wiggle your hips a bit.

as a side note, the monk Takuan mentioned about the mind has the tendency to get stuck on thing. you mentioned nikkyo and most folks will get stuck on the technique and didn't realize that it wasn't about nikkyo at all, but about aiki. it could be anything you want it to be isn't it, once you have aiki?
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:23 AM   #27
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Re: YouTube: Push Test to Nikkyo

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I think you're using a different definition of 'force' than I'm used to? I have an engineering background so I'm used to a pretty precise, narrow definition. I.e., he is pushing, so his mass is exerting a force F1. The system is not in motion, so there is an equal opposing force F2 where F2 = -F1, so the net force is 0, since F = ma and you have a mass and are clearly not accelerating... I imagine you're trying to express something more subtle than that with your choice of words (something about what the opposing force actually is? I get that you're saying the muscles are relaxed), but the language you're using isn't matching with my knowledge of the words.
I think so, too. The language not matching between us. This is much easier to talk about in person, but that's not always an option. If you'll note in the vid, when my partner suddenly takes his arm away, I don't move into him. So, I'm not exerting a force back into uke. So, if I'm not equalizing the force that uke is projecting, then something else must be going on, right?

The body is a very complex machine. It's never as easy as basic physics. Think about radar being altered by stealth technology. Rather than sending waves back to be picked up by radar, those waves are trapped and/or redirected and/or lose energy. The body is complex enough that it can be trained to achieve similar results with incoming energy.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:28 AM   #28
MM
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Re: YouTube: Push Test to Nikkyo

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
very interesting. mark, you switched position too fast for my eyes to follow (getting old) and have not figured out how to slow down the video yet. maybe doing it more slowly with you being able to pick up one leg at a time and wiggle your hips a bit.

as a side note, the monk Takuan mentioned about the mind has the tendency to get stuck on thing. you mentioned nikkyo and most folks will get stuck on the technique and didn't realize that it wasn't about nikkyo at all, but about aiki. it could be anything you want it to be isn't it, once you have aiki?
Hi Phi,

I'll try to redo the vid and slow my movements down. You're right in pointing that out. Speed masks too much. I should have thought of that.

I'll look silly wiggling my hips, but I'll give it a go.

Picking up the legs is a very tough thing to do correctly. Instead of using the quad muscles to pick the leg up, I should be using other internal methods. Example, lower back through to legs. I might not be able to capture that because I'm still working on it.

And yes, you're right. It isn't about nikkyo at all. It could be any technique. But, if you show just any technique, you have to have movement of some sort. Aiki is a body skill. You have to have an external vehicle to showcase it. In this case, it would be jujutsu. So, picking any technique showcases jujutsu, too. And I wanted to cut down on the movement so that jujutsu isn't as prominent as aiki principles. Hard to do.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:51 AM   #29
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: YouTube: Push Test to Nikkyo

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post

I'll look silly wiggling my hips, but I'll give it a go.

Picking up the legs is a very tough thing to do correctly. Instead of using the quad muscles to pick the leg up, I should be using other internal methods. Example, lower back through to legs. I might not be able to capture that because I'm still working on it.
.
aikido folks should be very comfortable in looking silly

wiggling hips to show that you are not bracing with your legs. also, if you are connected to uke's center, your hips wiggling would also making uke's body to wiggle as well. picking up the leg to show that you are still maintain a ground path as you switching position. just a couple of thoughts. look good though. you are a braver man than i for making the video.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:04 AM   #30
Basia Halliop
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Re: YouTube: Push Test to Nikkyo

"If you'll note in the vid, when my partner suddenly takes his arm away, I don't move into him. So, I'm not exerting a force back into uke. So, if I'm not equalizing the force that uke is projecting, then something else must be going on, right?"

No, not really. If I put a book on a table, gravity exerts a force downwards on the table equal to F = -mg where m is the mass of the book. The table exerts an equal and opposite force called the normal force, this is why the book doesn't go through the table. Likewise, the force the table exerts on the floor is now increased by m, and the normal force exerted by the floor on the table is also increased by m. Yet, the table does not move upwards when the book is removed, since the normal force exists only when something is pressing the table. It doesn't continue afterwards.

Actually, stealth radar works precisely _because of_ basic physics . Some of it is cancellation of one electric field with another equal and opposite one, much of it is altering the angles of reflection to minimize how much goes back to the sender, some is using materials with different dielectric constants. All very fundamental and measurable (and believe me, they measure it to death) physical stuff... It's the same basic problem as antireflective coatings on eyeglasses, just a more complex system so more factors to the solution.

But that's way besides the point, I suppose. I take your point about vocabulary... it's not really the point of your discussion, I presume. I imagine it's easier to show what you're doing than to explain how it actually works, without shared language.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:55 AM   #31
Michael McCaslin
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Re: YouTube: Push Test to Nikkyo

Quote:
Basis Halliop wrote:
No, not really. If I put a book on a table, gravity exerts a force downwards on the table equal to F = -mg where m is the mass of the book. The table exerts an equal and opposite force called the normal force, this is why the book doesn't go through the table. Likewise, the force the table exerts on the floor is now increased by m, and the normal force exerted by the floor on the table is also increased by m. Yet, the table does not move upwards when the book is removed, since the normal force exists only when something is pressing the table. It doesn't continue afterwards.
You know, I almost never post here any more. The signal to noise ratio, agenda trolling, and general personality conflicts conspire to derail conversations. Every now and then I pop in just to make sure I'm not missing anything, LOL.

I feel compelled to chime in because your quote above exactly encapsulates the fundamental idea to me. Make your body transparent to the incoming force, such that the pusher feels like he is pushing on a table. The trick is to arrange your body such that the force flows to the ground, and not add any resistance of your own. That's not what most people naturally do when you try to move them, though. They instinctively dig in and push back.

It sounds so simple, but it's tough to do and there are gradations. I met with Mike S. recently and was surprised to see how much what I was doing differed from what I *thought* I was doing.

I think people discount how much importance there is to this fundamental idea, and your book/table metaphor encapsulates it well. Now, if the book is moving sideways, how do you arrange your "internal table"?

FWIW,

Michael
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:07 PM   #32
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: YouTube: Push Test to Nikkyo

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
If you look at it strictly from a jujutsu aspect, if the arm is straight, then it can be used as a lever to affect someone's hips. Get the hips to be out of alignment with the rest of the body and nikkyo is easy to apply.

Looking at it from an aiki perspective, the lever isn't going to work. The hips won't be affected because of how the internal body structure is built.

The unbendable arm trick is only one half of what really should be going on. While it gives some strength when you mentally extend through your arm, it isn't the complete exercise. Intent going outwards should be combined with intent coming inwards at the same time. Not an easy thing to do or keep going in a dynamic situation.
Mark,
the problem with this stuff is that you really need to feel it. The folks who can look at the video and see what is happening are already working on it and the folks who aren't, largely can't see it. Allen's point is spot on.
- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:22 PM   #33
Rennis Buchner
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Re: YouTube: Push Test to Nikkyo

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
Just a thought: why would you resist if anyone pushes? I'd rather let all that energy get past me instead of trying to resist it with inner strength (or leg strength as I prefer to call it). Then again I'm a lightweight..
I think that depending on your point of view, he is letting all that strength get past him, but via a channel through his body rather than just off into nothing in the air. Done properly there shouldn't be any particular "resisting" in the terms we normally think of when using the term, not that I can do it properly mind you, but that is why we keep working on such things.
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