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Old 11-26-2009, 11:15 AM   #26
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Training for a physical confrontation

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Of course, there's nothing like hanmi handachi waza with a 500 kg uke.
Oh! That reminds me of perhaps the most important aspect to dealing with a physical confrontation!
Always have a wall you can jump over when you get tired! And bring several friends to help you distract and tire out your 1100lbs. attacker!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:27 AM   #27
Rob Watson
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Re: Training for a physical confrontation

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
And bring several friends to help you distract and tire out your 1100lbs. attacker!
Hey! That's cheating .. real men don't need friends.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:59 AM   #28
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Training for a physical confrontation

Quote:
Eric Winters wrote: View Post
Hello Kevin,

Thanks for the clarification. I had wanted to avoid the thread the drifting towards the "Aikido does not work in a fight" or other related subject because people would dismiss this thread without really paying attention. I was thinking more towards drills to ease people into the fully resistant partner while minimizing injuries as much as possible. Also, because there are so many variables and it is impossible to train for all of them, I thought that getting someone to the point of being able to apply technique to a resisting partner would be a good starting point.

Thanks for suggesting a Tony Blauer seminar. I have thought about trying to get to that type of seminar before.

Sorry for the misunderstanding Kevin and Mary.

Best,

Eric
I think you are on the right track as far as first being concerned with easing them into fully resistance while minimizing injuries. To be honest the first thing you have to do is assess their physical conditioning to deal with this type of training. Alot of folks simply are not in shape enough to train this way without serious risk of injury, so I think whatever program you develop/implement it needs to take this into consideration. I think this is one of the best ways to reduce not only risk of injury, but to increase student's ability to deal with "combative stress".

Second thing, you can kinda do concurrently while getting them in shape, is to practice "positions of failure" (point of failure), that they will find themselves in during fights. that is, positions in which they cannot create distance necessary to fight. Once they learn the basics of the positions, they will find that a great deal of fear is reduced simply because they are able to recoginize the positions and begin to create the conditions necessary for them to escape from them.

What I like about these positions is that they can be practiced slowly, methodically, and safely, while teaching them how to deal with the realities of fighting.

I believe in literally working from the "ground up". That is, starting with the mount, rear mount, side control, guard etc....then working them to standing clinch work, both free (in the open) and against the wall/objects.

Again, these things can be done slowly, along with other drills/kata with folks and are great conditioning exercises to help them develop the kinesthetic awareness and feel while they are also getting in shape and learning to relax.

From there, you can then begin to create more distance and separation in the situation to more familiar drills/kata/exercises that we are used to seeing in Aikido.

I have found this to be about the best way in a dojo environment to condition folks for physical confrontation and to deal with the ensuing stress that comes from having someone else impose their will on you.

My criticism of aikido is that we start from the "outside/in". that is, we throw way too much of what I personally consider to be advanced material and expect students to "learn/keep up".

Once they are forced to deal with a non-compliant opponent hell bent on imposing their will and taking way that space from them, they tend to freak out if they have never dealt with having that space/position taken away from them.

Once you have spent a fair amount of time building the physical conditioning, kinesthetic awareness, and drills that they have committed to muscle memory...you can then begin to add the stress of aliveness on them in order to "pressure test".

Of course, there are various philosophies and concerns that arise from this type of training to include the whole "creates bad habits" argument when you look at it from a budo perspective...some of which I agree with from my own experiences and "bad habits'.

However, I think it all depends on what you consider your path to be and what your priorities are in training.

Yes, Toby Threadgill, has written some very good material on this too! I recommend reading it as someone has already suggested.

My advice if you are concerned with this type of training is to find a decent BJJ school, make friends with them and either cross train, or invite them to your dojo to train.

As of course, everything I have mentioned above, is the basis of BJJ and is why I think BJJ is a great art to complement your aikido practice as the range of combat and skills you will practice are almost the opposite approach in methodology from aikido so to speak.

However, there are only so many hours in the day and this does take time to train and cannot be trained in a weekend seminar...it would require a concerted effort over time if you really want to train this way.

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Old 11-26-2009, 08:36 PM   #29
Michael Hackett
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Re: Training for a physical confrontation

Bulls are generally pretty consistent animals, at least rodeo bulls are. Bullriders and bullfighters get to know the bulls and generally the animals will act in a particular way, such as spinning left out of the chute for two spins and then a hard turn to the right. Sometimes everyone gets fooled, but not too often. With these fighting bulls shown, note that once they get moving in a line, they aren't able to turn quickly from their original direction of travel. At close distance and slow speeds they can turn on a dime. Secondly note these bullfighters are only doing a specific technique four or less times with the same animal. Bulls are pretty smart and athletic, so if you try to pull the same turn more than four times, they'll remember and anticipate your movement. Your trousers won't be white after that! These guys aren't counting on the bulls' specific movements, but their general physical characteristics such as the inability to turn quickly at a full sprint.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:13 PM   #30
eyrie
 
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Re: Training for a physical confrontation

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Of course, there's nothing like hanmi handachi waza with a 500 kg uke.
Now THAT's what I'm talking about! How you say in Espanol? Pelotas grande?

Ignatius
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:16 AM   #31
Eric Winters
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Re: Training for a physical confrontation

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I think you are on the right track as far as first being concerned with easing them into fully resistance while minimizing injuries. To be honest the first thing you have to do is assess their physical conditioning to deal with this type of training. Alot of folks simply are not in shape enough to train this way without serious risk of injury, so I think whatever program you develop/implement it needs to take this into consideration. I think this is one of the best ways to reduce not only risk of injury, but to increase student's ability to deal with "combative stress".

Second thing, you can kinda do concurrently while getting them in shape, is to practice "positions of failure" (point of failure), that they will find themselves in during fights. that is, positions in which they cannot create distance necessary to fight. Once they learn the basics of the positions, they will find that a great deal of fear is reduced simply because they are able to recoginize the positions and begin to create the conditions necessary for them to escape from them.

What I like about these positions is that they can be practiced slowly, methodically, and safely, while teaching them how to deal with the realities of fighting.

I believe in literally working from the "ground up". That is, starting with the mount, rear mount, side control, guard etc....then working them to standing clinch work, both free (in the open) and against the wall/objects.

Again, these things can be done slowly, along with other drills/kata with folks and are great conditioning exercises to help them develop the kinesthetic awareness and feel while they are also getting in shape and learning to relax.

From there, you can then begin to create more distance and separation in the situation to more familiar drills/kata/exercises that we are used to seeing in Aikido.

I have found this to be about the best way in a dojo environment to condition folks for physical confrontation and to deal with the ensuing stress that comes from having someone else impose their will on you.

My criticism of aikido is that we start from the "outside/in". that is, we throw way too much of what I personally consider to be advanced material and expect students to "learn/keep up".

Once they are forced to deal with a non-compliant opponent hell bent on imposing their will and taking way that space from them, they tend to freak out if they have never dealt with having that space/position taken away from them.

Once you have spent a fair amount of time building the physical conditioning, kinesthetic awareness, and drills that they have committed to muscle memory...you can then begin to add the stress of aliveness on them in order to "pressure test".

Of course, there are various philosophies and concerns that arise from this type of training to include the whole "creates bad habits" argument when you look at it from a budo perspective...some of which I agree with from my own experiences and "bad habits'.

However, I think it all depends on what you consider your path to be and what your priorities are in training.

Yes, Toby Threadgill, has written some very good material on this too! I recommend reading it as someone has already suggested.

My advice if you are concerned with this type of training is to find a decent BJJ school, make friends with them and either cross train, or invite them to your dojo to train.

As of course, everything I have mentioned above, is the basis of BJJ and is why I think BJJ is a great art to complement your aikido practice as the range of combat and skills you will practice are almost the opposite approach in methodology from aikido so to speak.

However, there are only so many hours in the day and this does take time to train and cannot be trained in a weekend seminar...it would require a concerted effort over time if you really want to train this way.
Hi Kevin,

I think ideally I would start everybody out with Judo and BJJ but I am not qualified to teach that. I'm thinking what can I do to make their physical Aikido work best within the range that aikido deals with. I would then suggest to them that they start training in BJJ after black belt in Aikido.

For my path in martial arts I would totally agree with your opinion in training in BJJ. I did that for a year and screwed up my neck, so I have to take a long brake from BJJ.

I think you are right in that I will have to assess my students physical fitness level to see if they are capable of the full resistance training.

One of the things I need to teach is how best to keep a person at the optimal distance for Aikido as best as possible. You are starting to see this more in MMA fights where you get some good strikers who know enough to be able to keep the good ground fighters away so the striker can fight their fight.

Thank you to everybody else who is helping with this discussion.

Best,

Eric
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:37 PM   #32
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Training for a physical confrontation

Quote:
One of the things I need to teach is how best to keep a person at the optimal distance for Aikido as best as possible. You are starting to see this more in MMA fights where you get some good strikers who know enough to be able to keep the good ground fighters away so the striker can fight their fight.
I was just watching UFC 100 yesterday...so that is my perspective for the moment.

Based on what I saw yesterday on the DVD a couple of thoughts on Optimal distance come to mind.

Brock Lesnar and Frank Mir...interesting fight and both these guys are heavy hitters so optimal distance in their strategy placed a high value on being able to land big punches.

Watching GSP and Thiago Alves...not heavy hitters, but GSP definitely fights a different strategy...he keeps distance and then would move in for a takedown....controlling in a much different way than say Lesnar.

Anyway, I think optimal distance is something each individual needs to figure out for themselves based on the conditions also provided by the situation, rules etc. Optimal distance for Knives is obviously different than for fist fights, which is different from sticks when both guys have them, which is different than when one guy has them.

In all cases of study when you are talking about standup grappling or physical confrontation, there are some basic elements that you can key in on.

Distance and Ma ai. As I stated, conditions and weapons will dictate alot of this as will the size and skills of the opponent. You simply need to discuss this and then limit or control the variables and then get students to focus on how these things affect the situation.

They will learn to either be in the fight or out of the fight, but staying in the "zone of danger" is not a good option. Aikido folk tend to like to stay there in my experiences due to the way we typically train in this zone, which is not improper in kata/waza...but most folks don't learn to transition this zone properly in a non-compliant situation and translate waza/kata practice to reality, which usually leads to a bloody nose or something.

Clinch. you simply have to train the clinch. I don't care who you are, what you study, or what your system or philosophy might be on fighitng. Clinching is universal and it must be studied and perfected. I am always amazed that systems will outright simply disregard clinching.

Use of walls and objects. Once clinch skills are understood, driving your opponent into obstacles and also the hazard the pose to you must be factored in.

WRT to "aikido distance", I assume you mean how to you keep someone away or at bay until you can either enter or dis-engage.

Well I go back to the clinch. Once you understand and can work the clinch, I think then combining that with punch, strikes and weapons...using those things as ways to keep your opponent away can be practiced in a competent matter.

Once they hit point of failure here and get overwhelmed, they can move back to the clinch to re-establish dominance/control.

The interesting thing about the clinch is that once you master the basics of it through pummelling drills, you begin to see that it really is about the basic of aikido. Irimi, tenkan and ikkyo as clinching is all about body positioning, uprooting your opponent and controlling th upper cross or spine. Correctly done, the clinch is a very close irimingae.

If you can't tell, I love the clinch.

It is a great training tool which is ONE, very useful in reality. TWO, it provides wonderful feedback in developing body/feel skills that we want in aikido. THREE, it does wonders in teaching people that they are okay being that close to someone and that they can manage a fight and slow things down. In short, it gives them a default coping skill when they go to point of failure. FOUR, it can be trained relatively safely with a low risk for knee or back injury as long as you work it properly and don't allow takedowns before they are ready to do them properly.

From there, you can build back out from the clinch creating the distance we have learned to love in aikido.

Of course there are other ways, but from my experiences this is the fastest way to convey good skills that are not at all at odds with how we train in aikido.

On another note, you don't need to get all that technical either about hand placement etc...save all that for kata/waza practice...this type of practice is "Macro focused" on creating big scale movements. This I think is also important in training in this manner.

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Old 12-03-2009, 12:54 PM   #33
Rob Watson
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Re: Training for a physical confrontation

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13467

Not a bad thread on this topic.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 12-07-2009, 03:44 PM   #34
Sam Turnage
 
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Re: Training for a physical confrontation

These are all great modalities but, I would like to make clear that the most important thing to do, is to be ready to fight; from a physical stand point.
All this training in Marshal Arts is great, especially Aikido or a jujitsu art of some kind. It will give you some advantage over the average Joe, and I love it. But, at the end of the day, if you are in fight shape; it just might be the thing that keeps you alive or from getting hurt. And you know what they say, "there's no shape like fight shape", I'm not saying that you have to be in shape like you're a professional mma fighter, but you need to be in better shape than most Aikidokas by far.
In the last year a Judo club opened up in town and my kids and I started training a little. It all started because I had a little Judo as a kid, it always worked well for me and I thought that it would be good for the kids to learn some simple throws and that the quality full resistance training would make there Aikido or Jujitsu more effective for the real world. I started training too only because, if it is good enough for them, then it's good enough for me.
Kids are doing great, I at first thought that I was going to die. And I hurt myself all the time. I did alright with the techniques, in fact I usually do better with the more advanced ones and it makes the advanced students mad when the new guy does it better then them. I think this is do to my Aikido training. But my conditioning was no good. I simply was not in the right condition to fight people with full resistance let alone change partners and fight again. Now I feel fit, stronger and more confident.

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

George Washington
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Old 12-07-2009, 04:38 PM   #35
dalen7
 
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Re: Training for a physical confrontation

lets just say sport fighting where two people choose to rough each other up...
[as the other situations you could potentially avoid, and that may be the "best training" for physical confrontation - not creating the background scenarios in which these 'confrontations' happen.]

So, the one thing you need is to be able to take a beating/toughen your body. [talking of sport fighting]
You ever seen those monks who can do amazing feats with their bodies because they toughened it up over the years?

Take your hand and hit them as hard as you can and you might be the one walking away with something broken. - Amazing how their bodies have been conditioned.

Ill tell you with the little Thai Boxing experience I have, it hurts being kicked even with pads.

Get hit in the stomach time and time again stings quite a bit... etc.

So you want to sport fight, then toughen your body up... get flexible, get coordinated, etc.

You want to stay out of a fight... learn who you are, "know theyself".

Trust me, from experience, I could have avoided certain situations had my attitude/thoughts been in the right place.
Consider this, you wont always be in prime condition - give you a few years and then you age and its over for the 'brutal sports' and you will have to learn other ways to fend for yourself... and the thought patterns, if you will, is key to be sure.

[sorry, I know its not the hip answer]

Peace

dAlen

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

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