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Old 11-17-2009, 08:14 AM   #51
chillzATL
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Re: Pain - How Important?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Well the thread had to do not with the use of atemi, but the relative value of pain as a motivator.

It is quite possible to deal with a person without the use of pain. It is quite possible to deal with a person without the use of atemi

I have had plenty encounters with folks that don't care about either of those two things...then what? what do you have left in your bag of tricks?
Well I think you're pushing it to the maximum extreme in the discussion. For the vast majority of people in the world who may attack you in your life, most are going to be upset by a hard atemi and that upsetedness should give you the advantage that you need to execute proper technique. That is the pupose of atemi after all. On the flip side, many encounters would not even need that much. A feint to the face or body would likely be enough to gain you that advantage, but I would rather train with the intent to strike hard and allow my experience and control to take over to measure what level of that is needed rather than train assuming it simply isn't needed.

The same goes for pain. While there are situations where someone may be under the influence of something enough to the point that pain does not motivate them, you still have good technique to fall back on. Joint locks that also create pain aren't bad or improper. Heck, in my opinion they are the most proper, but that is just my opinion. You're not sacrificing anything by having locks that are locked properly to the point that pain is readily available. They're still locked out and you still have all the advantages of controlling their center and energy only with a little pain at the ready to motivate them if they resist. Again, that is the purpose of the pain. It's not a sign of improper technique, or the only part of the technique. It's simply a motivator. If that motivator doesn't motivate them to your benefit, you still have all the other pieces of the technique in place to assist you.

I'm more than comfortable in saying that if they're not under the influence of something, they will most certainly feel the pain of the locks as we apply them.

Last edited by chillzATL : 11-17-2009 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 11-17-2009, 09:00 AM   #52
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Pain - How Important?

Jason wrote:

Quote:
For the vast majority of people in the world who may attack you in your life, most are going to be upset by a hard atemi and that upsetedness should give you the advantage that you need to execute proper technique
Ok...but personally, I am not presumptious about what someone will or will not do under extreme anger or duress where they are intent on causing me physical harm.

Quote:
The same goes for pain. While there are situations where someone may be under the influence of something enough to the point that pain does not motivate them, you still have good technique to fall back on.
My good technique has failed me often enough in trainng, let alone dealing with a non-compliant person outside of the normal dojo environment to figure out that there is alot more to a good solution set the a "micro" focused technique to fall back on.

Quote:
Joint locks that also create pain aren't bad or improper.
Never said they were...bad or improper. Just saying that there is alot more going on in the dynamic of a "fight" than this that must be controlled in order to even get as far as the joint lock or an immobilization....enough to warrant some fairly serious focus on.

Quote:
Again, that is the purpose of the pain. It's not a sign of improper technique, or the only part of the technique. It's simply a motivator. If that motivator doesn't motivate them to your benefit, you still have all the other pieces of the technique in place to assist you.
sure it is a motivator....if it motivates.

If not, as you state, what do you have to fall back on? What is it that you see in the situation in which you have control through pain that allows you to "fall back on" in order to retain control?

Quote:
I'm more than comfortable in saying that if they're not under the influence of something, they will most certainly feel the pain of the locks as we apply them.
That word "IF" is always an interesting proposition. One in the Martial Arts i'd rather not have in my vocabulary, or at least do my best to reduce it to a set of sequel and branches.

FWIW, I think situation, risk, and perspective have alot to do with this IF.

IF you were gonig to kill me and my life was on the line...I am not so worried about tapping out or the fact that you break my wrist. In fact, that pain for me is most likely a motivator button to make me fight harder.

IF I were chest bumping in a bar and the percieved stakes were not that high maybe not...it depends on my mental state. My thoughts are to train to the lowest common denominator which essentially factors this IF out of the equation all together...plus it reduces my liability.

because IF it could be demonstrated that I had enough control to actually do a nikkyo in court, lets say someone has an camera filming it...

Then it would become very apparent that I had the ability to control the situation without going the extra mile. However, IF I don't have that control and IF I fail to control his center or establish Kuzushi...then maybe that camera will film him clocking me.

This really comes down to a "What came first, the chicken or the egg kinda argument". Which again, we are looking at Pain as a relative factor in the situation.

Sure it can be a motivator, sure it can shape the fight, but it is not the primary mechanism for control and IF it does not work, then you have to fall back on something else....that something else is kuzushi or control of center...which is fundamental and primary.

Me persnoally, I am not stopping or waiting around in the progression of the situation to see if pain works...I am worried about getting to the "center of that Tootsie Pop" as soon as I can.

If you ask me where nikkyo comes into play...well think it comes into play not as a primary method of control..but as a secondary...mainly when you are grappling over a weapon...you establish dominance then you isolate and fight over the weapon to control it.

I think we take what we do in waza a little too much and try and apply it as literal tactics....try it out some time. Get some good protective gear like Blauer Suits on and try the various scenarios...see how nikkyo works, see what conditions are necessary to make it work...it is an enlightening experience that will quite possibly change how you see and approach your training!

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Old 11-17-2009, 09:48 AM   #53
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Re: Pain - How Important?

It depends on how much you can generate. Whilst perceived pain can generally be ignored by trained fighters and masochists, pain to the nerves would illicit neuro-muscular response, auto reflex if you may.

A case in point, if you can generate the force of a magnum in your atemi, your opponent will drop irrespective of whether he can take the pain or not. That's force.

If you can generate 20,000 volts like a taser, then the guy is going down regardless if he was a hard core masochist.

But if you're going to just rely on a painful nikyo as opposed to a correct nikyo to keep a guy down... well, lets just say I've seen a sensei take one in the nose thinking he had the whole pain thing together.

Lastly, if you have to rely on pain to get your waza to work, then you might as well throw awase and musubi out the window. The idea is to work in harmony. Aiki is not what you have. Is what you make use of once you learn to accept its nature.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:00 AM   #54
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Re: Pain - How Important?

Quote:
A case in point, if you can generate the force of a magnum in your atemi, your opponent will drop irrespective of whether he can take the pain or not. That's force.
ahhh, but is it the pain that is causing him to drop or something else? either you are using force to take his center off balance, or you knock him out which has nothing to do with the actual pain. I submit...entirely different set of causation.

Quote:
If you can generate 20,000 volts like a taser, then the guy is going down regardless if he was a hard core masochist.
It is not the pain that takes him out with the taser, but the interruption of his Nervous System/Electrical wiring...it is an involuntary response...the pain is the side effect.

Quote:
Lastly, if you have to rely on pain to get your waza to work, then you might as well throw awase and musubi out the window. The idea is to work in harmony. Aiki is not what you have. Is what you make use of once you learn to accept its nature.
Well, I submit the whole harmony thing doesn't mean cooperation. It means I listen to what is being presented to me and work that to my advantage...it could be mutual, or not depending on the situation. However, are we talking philosophy or reality? or a combination of the two which is the "middle way" between the two?

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Old 11-17-2009, 10:23 AM   #55
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Re: Pain - How Important?

Salutations to All,

If you perform relatively competent taisabaki, achieve kuzushi with mediocre kamae and ma-ai...Pain in an application is the winning lottery ticket.

Unless your skill is excellent, or your foe is a blind paraplegic with one arm..you better realize you are not going to execute perfect technique. What you would like to execute, and what they will let you execute are completely different. Pain is a byproduct of proper execution.

Everyone talks about centering, connecting or whatever..to accomplish that your avoidance, balance break and posture must occur. After you have attained that point your technique , depending on what it is, will give you pain compliance. We are talking about Aikido right? Because, if you want to dicuss Jujustu, Kali, Karate, Silat or any other arts....the equation morphs.

Personally, I find it annoying that folks want train in Aikido, but are constantly trying to inject punch/kick/knife arts into their Aikido. Do not misunderstand, I cross train for that reason. How many tools can I get into my toolbox, hmmm...there is always room for one more.

Throw the blend and flow right out the window, and you can have pain from the get-go. Get rid of the pins, immobilizations and pretty throws..go back to the breaks, chokes and strikes that are the heritage of Aikido. Now you are discussing pain.

What are you going to do when you encounter someone who is immune to site specific pain, either through trauma, chemically induced or trained to withstand....your fundementals should have accomplished the goal long before you realized this.

Just a few thoughts, Train well,

Mickey

Last edited by mickeygelum : 11-17-2009 at 10:34 AM. Reason: I am a terrible typist
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:38 AM   #56
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Re: Pain - How Important?

Yep Kevin, those examples are the differences I'm getting at. Pain as a result of a certain impetus. Pain as a result of extreme force. Pain as a result of neuro muscular attack. Pain as a result of a joint lock say. Needless to say, pain is unnecessary, its only a by product. If you're looking for effectiveness, I would say 1 and 2 would be effective but you're unlikely to achieve mastery of that anytime soon. And number 3, not that particularly effective.

As for Awase and Musubi being a philosophy as opposed to reality, I kindly disagree. But we don't have to argue on that, I know you're searching for the same thing too and I bet you've met some people closer to that realm than I can ever explain here. I too don't believe in harmony as being uke doing the aiki bunny thing. And Awase or Musubi doesn't require cooperation, not that it required such an explanation really.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-17-2009, 12:44 PM   #57
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Pain - How Important?

Thank Ahmad, I imagine our differences are semantical at this point!

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Old 11-17-2009, 01:06 PM   #58
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Pain - How Important?

Michael Gelum wrote:

Quote:
Pain is a byproduct of proper execution.
I agree.

Quote:
Everyone talks about centering, connecting or whatever..to accomplish that your avoidance, balance break and posture must occur. After you have attained that point your technique , depending on what it is, will give you pain compliance. We are talking about Aikido right? Because, if you want to dicuss Jujustu, Kali, Karate, Silat or any other arts....the equation morphs.
Why should the equation morph? Aikido is a principle and philosophically centered art, as such whatever we do should be universal in nature. Tactics aside. Maybe this is what you are saying? i.e there are certain tactics with Silat injected because of the type of weapon? true, however, at the base level, unless you are using a gun for the most part, you have edged weapons and you blunt weapons...what differs might be size, weight or timing of how they are employed.

So why would not the same base principles studied in aikido apply? We are talking fundamentals, not specific tactics, techniques, and proceedures.

Quote:
Personally, I find it annoying that folks want train in Aikido, but are constantly trying to inject punch/kick/knife arts into their Aikido.
Not sure how to addrss this one. All aikido I know deals with these very things, not sure what you'd call it if you eliminate these things?

Quote:
Throw the blend and flow right out the window, and you can have pain from the get-go. Get rid of the pins, immobilizations and pretty throws..go back to the breaks, chokes and strikes that are the heritage of Aikido. Now you are discussing pain.
And hence when you throw those things out, what are you left with? How "effective" is this void of the other things?

Does it only work in a certain context? Is it universal any longer? Or is it specific in nature? That is specific to a particular set of conditions?

"Heritage of Aikido" I think the heritage of aikido is based on a model of musubi, which is not so much about the technical aspects of breaks, chokes, etc...but on the fundamentals of control.

The irony is, that say in BJJ...an art that prides itself on chokes, locks, and breaks...the big thing you will hear anyone worth his salt is what? What is paramount in BJJ?

Quote:
What are you going to do when you encounter someone who is immune to site specific pain, either through trauma, chemically induced or trained to withstand....your fundementals should have accomplished the goal long before you realized this.
I think maybe we are saying the same thing?

I think once you have established dominance, then you are free to explore many options as you state above.

Michael, I think we are really saying the same thing, maybe we are simply dividing and categorizing slightly different?

To me, when you distill and break things down into different steps, at the fundamental level, you have some very basic things going on.

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Old 11-18-2009, 11:45 AM   #59
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Re: Pain - How Important?

Let me see if I can strengthen some of my points...

Since we moved into some discussion about pain as a motivator, I'll throw out this comment. Pain is not a motivator for nage to gauge effectiveness in executing technique; pain is indicator for uke to gauge risk behavior in assessing the bodily harm caused by a technique.

Uke is responsible to manage his (or her) pain in compliance with technique. Nage should be compassionate of a decision by uke to withstand technique even to a point of damage, but not sympathetic. The point of technique (joint locks specifically here) is to control your partner. Whether or not she chooses to comply with the technique comfortably or uncomfortably is irrevelent to the successful application of technique.

We sometimes forget the purpose of technique is to damage our partners. The risk of that damage is sufficient to solicit compliance from our partners in exchange for compassion from us. "I will break your wrist, unless you comply by yielding your body." Without the conviction of damage, the threat is an empty one.

For example, I once heard my instructor (who has some experience working with out of control persons) say that its not the drugs that are why you should be wary of crazed drug addicts, its the fact they [already] chose to destroy their bodies by abusing drugs. When dealing with someone who has choosen to destroy his body with drugs, how do you control that person with a threat to destroy their body?
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Old 11-19-2009, 12:04 PM   #60
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Re: Pain - How Important?

Mr Leavitt,

Pardon my untimely response, You are correct, we are saying the same thing.

Concepts, biomechanics and principles are universal. If our training is the perfection of those elements, then the acute similaries in all arts appear. The basic elements (concepts/body mechanics) are constant in all the arts.

Quote:
Michael, I think we are really saying the same thing, maybe we are simply dividing and categorizing slightly different?
I agree, completely.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:18 PM   #61
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Re: Pain - How Important?

Are there any techniques that need pain to make it work?
hmmm...

It seems to be that if the technique works that pain is one of the natural side-effects. [Hence why we practice ukemi to avoid pain, etc.]
The question isn't really "is there pain", but how tolerant are you to the pain that exist.

Also note that when I say if the 'technique works', that Im talking about it as a whole.

i.e.
"Does yonkyo work?"
"Nah"
"Sometimes"

Yonkyo does work, and it will cause pain to everyone.
Whether the technique is suitable for a given situation is another question.

About Yonkyo causing everyone pain, again, this is looking at the technique as a whole. Even if your immune to pressure points, your probably not immune to the feeling of having someone's knee in your shoulder/arm as your arm continues to be torqued back like a hungry man tearing a wing off a cooked chicken.

When I practice I like to practice where I 'feel' its working.
If you don't take my balance, I will not go with you and will simulate a punch/elbow to the face, etc.

The term "taking balance" can be misunderstood in the beginning as it encompasses a lot more than what one would initially think, yet it is what it says it is.

The very fact that Aikido is about moving Ukes body parts/joints in directions they are not meant to go in, pretty much guarantees some level of discomfort.

Again, I suppose its all semantics at the end - we are all basically saying the same thing... but know this, there is a lot of 'flow' out there that would never work at all... the understanding of body mechanics isn't even there, and just one smidgen of resistance would throw the whole technique off for that person.

To each their own, its a cool journey... enjoy.

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 11-24-2009 at 05:21 PM.

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Old 11-24-2009, 08:08 PM   #62
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Re: Pain - How Important?

One of the most valuable lessons I learned about knife fighitng was one that I had never really thought about for a long time.

It ain't how many times you stab him or how lethal your "stabs" are, it is how many times he stabs you that is what you are concerned about.

After I figured that paradigm out, I changed how I approached knife work to a strategy that was not oriented so much to stabbing the center of mass to one that was designed to drop him and render him unable to fight due to rendering his body mechanically unable to work via large muscle groups of the legs. If he is cannot stand, he cannot move to fight.

Sort of not related, but I think it also gets to the crux of the issue concerning the relative value of pain to a given situation.

I'd rather default to a set of conditions that I know will work vice one in which "might" work. Hence why I am all about blood chokes when possible for empty handed fighting.

However, of course, life is not perfect and there are a multitude of options we must have at our disposal when dealing with many spectrums of violence, weapons etc...so I think everything has it's place...to include pain.

The level of pain/damage/risk I am willing to personally endure in a class is different (less) than what I am willing to deal with in a tournament, which is different than what I would be willing to deal with in a life or death situation.

Guy with a broken arm can still fight, it all depends on what his motivation and cost/benefit ratio might be.

In all cases of a Rear Naked Choke applied effectively, the result it the same....a nap.

Same with effective kuzushi and effective imobilizations/pins.

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Old 11-24-2009, 11:09 PM   #63
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Re: Pain - How Important?

Quote:
I approached knife work to a strategy that was not oriented so much to stabbing the center of mass to one that was designed to drop him and render him unable to fight due to rendering his body mechanically unable to work
Mr. Leavitt,

Thank you for this statement...I am the prodigal son when it comes to tanto. Tournament, randori, free sparring or whatever...knife changes the environment, "dumbass luck" in a knife encounter can be lethal.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:50 AM   #64
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Pain - How Important?

Well, I understand it (the mechanics of a fight), but I am NOT the guy to learn tanto dori from as I too have alot to learn in this area.

Mickey, also, please call me Kevin or some other choice statement that might seem appropriate...but not Mr Leavitt! lol!

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