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Old 10-26-2009, 12:32 PM   #276
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Ahmad -
I have trained with Muslim men and women before who have interpreted things the same way that you do. They were, in fact, some of the nicest people I've ever known and their kids were shockingly well-adjusted. However, there *are* other interpretations out there. The Koran, the Bible, and a host of other religious texts can be interpreted in many ways, and it is far from unusual to see Jews, Christians, Muslims (and atheists!) who take the extreme view and think that women are dirty, unintelligent, over-emotional, etc.

The question isn't whether or not this happens; we know that it does. The question isn't whether or not the people who do this try to justify it with one holy text or another; we know that they do (even if we don't accept their particular interpretation).

The question of this thread is how *we* react when someone who takes this view comes to our (non-profit) dojo and requests or demands that we rearrange our practice in order to accommodate their interpretation of their religion.
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:59 PM   #277
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Amir-
I don't know about the Hebrew translation; my citations were from an English translation of a Christian Old Testament, and it clearly states that a woman on her menses, anything she touches, and anyone who touches anything that she has touched, are all unclean and must be 'purified' by blood sacrifice; it's clear from the Orthodox in Israel that women can be religiously interpreted as second-class.

There's plenty of other stuff in the Koran, the Old and New Testaments, the Hadith, and pretty much any other extensive religous text that you search through (heck, there are even Buddhist monks that are prohibited from touching women) that can be interpreted pretty negatively towards women by any sect that is inclined in that way. There are even atheists who justify their bad behavior towards women based on 'evolutionary psychology.'

My point of view is not that Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, or atheism are bad; my point of view is that nobody should have a right to rearrange the practice of my dojo to fit their particular belief system. Nobody should be able to say, for example, that since they can only train on Wednesdays due to their schedule, the woman who usually teaches on Wednesdays should swap her schedule around with the male teachers (or quit teaching altogether), and that the female students who also can only train on Wednesdays are just SOL.

Last edited by Lorien Lowe : 10-26-2009 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 10-26-2009, 04:12 PM   #278
Flintstone
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

So, Lorien, basically you agree with US then that it is the PERSON, not the RELIGION who is discriminating?

Back to track, if someone comes to my dojo and ask to train only with men because of religious "interpretations", I'll surely try to acomodate him. But this is a thing I'll have to discuss with all the students. Isn't it what liberty is all about? If we agree to acomodate, why not do so?

If the students don't want to do that... well... that will be a pity, but the guy will have to leave for the benefit of the dojo.
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Old 10-26-2009, 11:02 PM   #279
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

I agree that the person is choosing their particular religious interpretation, but that person will say that it is their religion (or at least their religious sect) to discriminate. They will argue just as hard as you have that behavior based on their religion should be protected.

Just out of curiosity, Alejandro, what proportion of your students are women? Are any of your teachers women?

Tyranny of the majority and all...
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:05 AM   #280
Darryl Cowens
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Well... as I always say.... if you are a vegetarian, then don't order a large T-bone steak...
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Old 10-27-2009, 06:06 AM   #281
Amir Krause
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Ahmad -
I have trained with Muslim men and women before who have interpreted things the same way that you do. They were, in fact, some of the nicest people I've ever known and their kids were shockingly well-adjusted. However, there *are* other interpretations out there. The Koran, the Bible, and a host of other religious texts can be interpreted in many ways, and it is far from unusual to see Jews, Christians, Muslims (and atheists!) who take the extreme view and think that women are dirty, unintelligent, over-emotional, etc.

The question isn't whether or not this happens; we know that it does. The question isn't whether or not the people who do this try to justify it with one holy text or another; we know that they do (even if we don't accept their particular interpretation).
Agreed - and making a lot of Sense.

I doubt how often will a person of the latter type - closed to any change - arrive to see M.A. practice or any such activity, not to speak of joining it in a Dojo which does not follow his own beliefs.

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
The question of this thread is how *we* react when someone who takes this view comes to our (non-profit) dojo and requests or demands that we rearrange our practice in order to accommodate their interpretation of their religion.
There is a difference between demanding or even just requesting others to rearrange their practice, and between letting someone in the dojo train in a way adjusted to his limitations.
So some trainee does not touch women, in some cases, HE (no-one else) will have to wait a turn and not train because he can only train with women. In fact, he is practically discriminating against himself (from my own experience practicing with Women often has additional important qualities most men lack) just were is the harm in that?

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Amir-
I don't know about the Hebrew translation; my citations were from an English translation of a Christian Old Testament, and it clearly states that a woman on her menses, anything she touches, and anyone who touches anything that she has touched, are all unclean and must be 'purified' by blood sacrifice; it's clear from the Orthodox in Israel that women can be religiously interpreted as second-class.
Lorien
The text you brought from the Tora, relates to the blood of the women coming from her womb (either ministration of post pregnancy) being "Taboo". This does not make women "un-clean" as a whole, such interpretation would falsify the text (though one could many such cases). If you ask me, this could be considered as one of the cases in which the Jewish rules tried to create some Hygienic conditions which was huge innovation back then.
Yet again, I do not claim that there are no discriminations against Women in Judaism. It is just that you concentrate on the things one can solve with ease, without imposing limitations on others.

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
There's plenty of other stuff in the Koran, the Old and New Testaments, the Hadith, and pretty much any other extensive religous text that you search through (heck, there are even Buddhist monks that are prohibited from touching women) that can be interpreted pretty negatively towards women by any sect that is inclined in that way. There are even atheists who justify their bad behavior towards women based on 'evolutionary psychology.'

My point of view is not that Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, or atheism are bad; my point of view is that nobody should have a right to rearrange the practice of my dojo to fit their particular belief system. Nobody should be able to say, for example, that since they can only train on Wednesdays due to their schedule, the woman who usually teaches on Wednesdays should swap her schedule around with the male teachers (or quit teaching altogether), and that the female students who also can only train on Wednesdays are just SOL.
About -- r-arranging -- see my previous answer -- above.

Well, among some very Orthodox (I would call them extreme) Jews, there is the concept of "The bad Emotion" -- which includes any sexual related emotion in any form (If you ask me -- total nonsense and contrary to most of Judaism healthy relation to heterosexual sex in the bible and early traditions). The amazing thing here, those men expect women to take limitations, to help them not to face their "Bad Emotion" -- to stay separated and unseen. In a way, these Orthodox Jews actually follow some Muslims cultures and their special attire for women.
However, I can not see any such Jew coming to learn in a Dojo, not even here in Israel. Those who come are of a different type, much more open, self confident and understanding of the exact boundaries of the limitations they took upon themselves as part of their religion.
It is my belief, that the "sane" / "non-extremist" society should encourage this latter type, and accommodate for it. Even if it requires some very MINOR sacrifice on our side (but one which is answered by a similar step from the religious person -- finding his own way to compromise --with all the exceptions to the laws and loopholes I know Judaism is full of and sure other religions are too).
In my own belief- if one of "us" is unwilling to look for such solutions at all, he should know that he chose to discriminate. He may have a valid reason or may consider the issue fundamental (for example, my sensei will waive bowing to objects, but not to people. He says the latter is about respect)

Amir
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:45 AM   #282
Deidre Huizinga
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Smile Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Hi there,

It's quite a complicated discussion, did O'sensei not explain it simple?

"The Art of Peace is the religion that is not a religion; it perfects and completes all religions."

(The Art of Peace, Morihei Ueshiba
Translated and edited by John Stevens)

With love, Deidre
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:35 PM   #283
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
But if your intentions are noble and it hasn't cross your mind, why shouldn't you train with the opposite gender.
Because it goes against the Sunnah.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/88099...uching%20women

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Old 11-08-2009, 12:43 PM   #284
"AikiSophia"
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
A man has visited my dojo and is interested in practicing. His religion prohibits him from touching a woman who is not his wife. My dojo is a tax-exempt 501(c)(3) educational organization, and thus may not discriminate based on religion.

Has anyone else faced this issue? Any suggestions?
There are many religious restrictions in the world, everything from what you should not eat or drink, to what one can not wear. In this case it is the contact between the opposite sex. I understand your dilemma, however choosing to do aikido, is to me also choosing to train with all kinds of people, regardless of their sex, ethnicity, religion etc. So if one can not touch another women than his wife, not training aikido is a sacrifice he will have to do in the name of his religion. There are alternative martial arts he can do, in which he will not violate is religions beliefs. One chooses ones (religious) values, and by entering a dojo with male and females, there will always be a risk of unwanted contact. There may be other dojo that offers male or female only classes, and these may be more suitable for him.

What if the next person entering the dojo can not have contact with "unclean" people who eat pork, or can not accept a female leader / instructor based on her/his religious beliefs? What if someone beliefs violate mine? This is a dilemma, and perhaps you should explain your dilemma to him.
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Old 11-08-2009, 04:52 PM   #285
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
So some trainee does not touch women, in some cases, HE (no-one else) will have to wait a turn and not train because he can only train with women. In fact, he is practically discriminating against himself (from my own experience practicing with Women often has additional important qualities most men lack) just were is the harm in that?
No harm at all. If the student in question takes his religious restrictions upon himself, rather than trying to impose them on everyone else, then I have absolutely no problem with it.

Quote:
If you ask me, this could be considered as one of the cases in which the Jewish rules tried to create some Hygienic conditions which was huge innovation back then.
sure - likewise the prohibition against eating pork. However, I think that (at least the version I took it from) takes it a little too far, and is a little over-specifically harsh with menstural blood; there was a lot of fighting and warfare back then, and one doesn't see the same association with uncleanness for the soldiers who slaughtered their enemies and ended up covered in human blood.

Quote:
It is my belief, that the "sane" / "non-extremist" society should encourage this latter type, and accommodate for it.
Again, no argument. If someone is open-minded towards me, I become uke if I fail to be open-minded towards them.
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Old 11-17-2009, 09:54 AM   #286
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Lorien,

I have to respectfully disagree when you state that the only person affected is person with the religious restrictions. I have had direct experience with this issue, and I must stated that the female partner is also affected in a few circumstances. First, she does not get a different person to train with - you know different body type. She has in effect one less training partner on the mat than all her male counterarts. Second, if practicing jiyuwaza/randori and the male practitioner with religious restrictions turn is up, she must sit out because he does not want to touch a woman. She gets left out in this specific instance and he doesn't. If you train jiyuwaza a lot in your dojo this can happen a lot. Third, there are times where she can be the only woman in a very small class of three. The two males both have religious restrictions against touching females. Who gets left out? She does. Who doesn't get to train for the day? The woman.

As to affecting the 501(c)(3) status, are you discriminating based on religion if you state to the person with religious restrictions that all people regardless of religion and gender train together? You are only required to provide a REASONABLE accomodation not any accomodation. In my opinion, if any other student's practice will be adversely affected by the request then it is not reasonable. This is especially true in aikido where we train with the opposite gender. This would be less so in other martial arts that emphasis kata and same gender sparring. So, an adversity to bowing to the kamiza would be a reasonable accomodation because someone not bowing to the kamiza, sensei or even me is not affecting my training. However, someone not training with the opposite gender is not reasonable because the woman would lose a training partner and if she were partaking in jiyuwaza or smaller class size then this would be much more adverse to her training.

With that said, I agree that his choice will affect him but that is the consequences of his decision to commit to a particular religious path. If he feels that he/she will be compromising their beliefs then the proper choice should be to not join the dojo in the first place, find a martial arts schools where he can be reasonably accomodate without adversely affect those around him.
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Old 11-17-2009, 04:25 PM   #287
Flintstone
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

I have, you know, a problem with inteolerant people. If they won't accept my pupils religious restrictions then they'll be invited to leave and come back when thei opened up their minds to other people's beliefs. If you keep behemently insisting in that your moral is of a higher value than mine or my students, please, don't come in. You attitude is just that which causes religion wars over the planet. But this is just my opinion and it's wrong. Yours is right.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:41 AM   #288
jss
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
I have, you know, a problem with inteolerant people. If they won't accept my pupils religious restrictions then they'll be invited to leave and come back when thei opened up their minds to other people's beliefs. If you keep behemently insisting in that your moral is of a higher value than mine or my students, please, don't come in. You attitude is just that which causes religion wars over the planet. But this is just my opinion and it's wrong. Yours is right.
<devil's advocate>
I do not necessarily need to think my moral is of a higher value than yours or that of your students to reject those religious restrictions. I could be a moral relativist.
Secondly, how is having to accept these religious restrictions against my own beliefs not an implicit confirmation that these restrictions are of a higher moral value than my own beliefs? So, pot kettle black.
</devil's advocate>
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:00 AM   #289
Flintstone
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
I do not necessarily need to think my moral is of a higher value than yours or that of your students to reject those religious restrictions. I could be a moral relativist.
Moral relativists will think both views are correct and, accordingly, accomodate to their restrictions as best as they can.

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Secondly, how is having to accept these religious restrictions against my own beliefs not an implicit confirmation that these restrictions are of a higher moral value than my own beliefs?
Not higher or lesser, but... different. That's all. I fail to see that cause-effect relationship you expose here.
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:59 AM   #290
jss
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Moral relativists will think both views are correct and, accordingly, accomodate to their restrictions as best as they can.
Or the moral relativist is a bit lazy and says that as both views are correct, there is no need to put any effort into accommodating to anyone's restrictions. With a relativist, it really can go either way (or a third way no one saw coming. ).

Quote:
Not higher or lesser, but... different. That's all. I fail to see that cause-effect relationship you expose here.
Hmmm... I may have misread you when you said:
Quote:
If they won't accept my pupils religious restrictions then they'll be invited to leave and come back when thei opened up their minds to other people's beliefs. If you keep behemently insisting in that your moral is of a higher value than mine or my students, please, don't come in.
You don't like someone claiming his moral is of a higher value than someone else's. But if you accommodate to one person's religious restrictions and these restrictions limit another person's ability to practice, aren't you, by accommodating to these restrictions, claiming in an implicit manner that these restrictions are of a higher moral value than the other person's views on practice?
To make this more specific, let's imagine the following situation. I don't want to train with women, because my religion teaches me that's the proper way to show respect to women. There is a woman at the dojo who believes that training with everyone is the way to show proper respect to fellow dojo members. It's impossible to make both happy, unless at leas one of us changes his/her beliefs. If you as a dojo head make the decision that my religious restriction about training with women should be respected, that decision implies you think my beliefs have a higher moral value than those of the woman in question.
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Old 11-21-2009, 08:20 PM   #291
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Lorien,

I have to respectfully disagree when you state that the only person affected is person with the religious restrictions. I have had direct experience with this issue, and I must stated that the female partner is also affected in a few circumstances. First, she does not get a different person to train with - you know different body type. She has in effect one less training partner on the mat than all her male counterarts.
Second, if practicing jiyuwaza/randori and the male practitioner with religious restrictions turn is up, she must sit out because he does not want to touch a woman. She gets left out in this specific instance and he doesn't. If you train jiyuwaza a lot in your dojo this can happen a lot. Third, there are times where she can be the only woman in a very small class of three. The two males both have religious restrictions against touching females. Who gets left out? She does. Who doesn't get to train for the day? The woman.
The person with religious restrictions to training with women aren't going to be 'forced' to train with women; they'd just leave. The women in question are not going to be able to train with this religious person no matter what happens. Either he's allowed in class and trains only with men, or he doesn't come to the dojo at all. In your second case, it's not that she'd have two people to train with that she otherwise wouldn't, it's that she'd show up at the dojo alone.

Quote:
You are only required to provide a REASONABLE accomodation not any accomodation. In my opinion, if any other student's practice will be adversely affected by the request then it is not reasonable.
whenever we train with other people, someone is going to be adversely affected by someone else. Stinky Guy? He adversely affects my practice when he interrupts my ability to remain upright in kokyu-ho by breathing on me. Loud Guy? He distracts me from across the dojo with his yelling. Flirty Gal? She just annoys the heck out of me. Heaven only knows what I do to distract or annoy other people. Opinionated Gal? Throat-punch Gal?

I think that if there's a question of training or not training, the Religious Guy should be the one to sit out, not the women of the dojo. Nor should women be forced into a females-only ghetto on one side of the mat. Let Religious Guy train, but just like Stinky Guy gets a talking-to when it gets so bad that he's doing no-touch aikido from six feet away, so should Religious Guy be limited in his impact - but if he's willing to take responsibility for that, don't just leave him on the curb. It's good for him and good for all the guys in the dojo to have another set of hands.
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Old 11-22-2009, 08:50 AM   #292
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
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Thumbs up Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
The person with religious restrictions to training with women aren't going to be 'forced' to train with women; they'd just leave. The women in question are not going to be able to train with this religious person no matter what happens. Either he's allowed in class and trains only with men, or he doesn't come to the dojo at all. In your second case, it's not that she'd have two people to train with that she otherwise wouldn't, it's that she'd show up at the dojo alone.
Exactly what I wanted to say - From experiance, people who have religious restrictions will not jion unless those can be accomudated. The idea of "Been there...done that" implies if the Sensei does not agree, they will join without those restrictions. If that were the case, they do not really care for the restrictions.
Further, from experiance, at least most of the Jews who keep "Negia" (not touching women unless they went to the Mikve) care about intentional touch and not about accidental touch. Those who care about the latter will not ask to jion a mixed club anyhow.

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
whenever we train with other people, someone is going to be adversely affected by someone else. Stinky Guy? He adversely affects my practice when he interrupts my ability to remain upright in kokyu-ho by breathing on me. Loud Guy? He distracts me from across the dojo with his yelling. Flirty Gal? She just annoys the heck out of me. Heaven only knows what I do to distract or annoy other people. Opinionated Gal? Throat-punch Gal?
If you check the AikiWeb archives, you will find many recomendations for some person not to train with another, if he feels such training is counter beneficial (dangerous, extremly bad \ abusive Uke and even some social situations). If one may choose not to train with another because of such reasons. Why are some here so appaled about religous restrictions as a reason?

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
I think that if there's a question of training or not training, the Religious Guy should be the one to sit out, not the women of the dojo. Nor should women be forced into a females-only ghetto on one side of the mat. Let Religious Guy train, but just like Stinky Guy gets a talking-to when it gets so bad that he's doing no-touch aikido from six feet away, so should Religious Guy be limited in his impact - but if he's willing to take responsibility for that, don't just leave him on the curb. It's good for him and good for all the guys in the dojo to have another set of hands.
Exactly !!!

Amir
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:33 PM   #293
"Been there...done that"
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
The person with religious restrictions to training with women aren't going to be 'forced' to train with women; they'd just leave. The women in question are not going to be able to train with this religious person no matter what happens. Either he's allowed in class and trains only with men, or he doesn't come to the dojo at all. In your second case, it's not that she'd have two people to train with that she otherwise wouldn't, it's that she'd show up at the dojo alone.
Based upon my direct experience they don't leave the dojo; they are welcomed in the dojo because they are essentially nice people and not thugs. Sensei allows it and accomodates because he is trying to spread aikido to a group of people who would not otherwise practice it. You are told not to train with Mr. X, Y and Z or that Mr. X, Y and Z don't train with women because of their religious beliefs so please don't train with them - try to find another partner and skip them in jiyuwaza. In the name of PCness and propagation of aikido you - as a woman - are caught in the middle.

And, how does showing up alone excuse the fact that the woman in the second case is by her choice to be excluded from training because the two other men in class don't train with women? I show up alone every single day to the dojo would that excuse someone from raping me in the locker room where I change? I don't think so. So why would that kind of logic apply here?

When she shows up for a morning class and is the one of three people on the mat; she is the only woman and the other two have religious restrictions, how the heck is her training not affected? It's not by her choice -- it's by theirs to practice their view of their religion. You can not admit here in this circumstance that her training was adversely affected?

Would it make a difference to you that this was the only time the particular female could train and these men would only occasionally show up as a group? She pays dues like everyone else. Imagine showing up to class a two or three practices in a row and NOT BE ABLE TO TRAIN. And what will you say to yourself? "Oh, I showed up by myself - so my training is not adversely affected?" I don't think so. You will be peeved that you did not get to train. That's it. It is just not a happenstance "oh, well, I just decided to show up alone."

Quote:
whenever we train with other people, someone is going to be adversely affected by someone else. Stinky Guy? He adversely affects my practice when he interrupts my ability to remain upright in kokyu-ho by breathing on me. Loud Guy? He distracts me from across the dojo with his yelling. Flirty Gal? She just annoys the heck out of me. Heaven only knows what I do to distract or annoy other people. Opinionated Gal? Throat-punch Gal?
Your point here is a bit of a red herring because you are bringing in notions that do not keep another person from training. Stinky Guy just stinks. Loud guy is just loud. Flity Guy is just flirty. And Opinionated Gal is just opinionated. You can still train with a stinky, loud, flirty opinionated person. And as far as 501(c)(3) status goes none of these people fall within a protected class. A dojo will not loose it's non-profit status if they tell stinky guy to clean up or leave, or loud guy to quite down or leave, flirty guy to stop flirting or leave or opinionated gal to stop gabbing on the mat. However, a person's religious status is a protected class for 501(c)(3) purposes.

Quote:
I think that if there's a question of training or not training, the Religious Guy should be the one to sit out, not the women of the dojo. Nor should women be forced into a females-only ghetto on one side of the mat. Let Religious Guy train, but just like Stinky Guy gets a talking-to when it gets so bad that he's doing no-touch aikido from six feet away, so should Religious Guy be limited in his impact - but if he's willing to take responsibility for that, don't just leave him on the curb. It's good for him and good for all the guys in the dojo to have another set of hands.
It's his choice to follow an orthodox belief system not hers. And by his choice to follow it he will experience consequences because of it. However, the people around him should not suffer because of it either. And, as I have experienced directly - you do and you will.

I am not advocating that the woman should sit out. It is just that she will be sitting out as a consequence. I'm just pointing out that you can not have one side of the coin without the other, especially in the circumstances that I previously explained. Just try participating in jiyuwaza with the person with religious restrictions - you're sitting out whether you like it or not. Just try instructing a small class with the person in it - you can not physically touch him or use him as uke. I've been that woman - you will be sitting out and not by choice -- but by his and by your sensei who "accomodates" it.

Quote:
Amir said: The idea of "Been there...done that" implies if the Sensei does not agree, they will join without those restrictions. If that were the case, they do not really care for the restrictions.
No, they joined the particular dojo with those restrictions which is why different women in the dojo had issues. Which, is why I had the direct experience that I did. Since the sensei and his assistants were too busy with being PC they didn't stop to think of the implications it was for the women in the dojo.

I think what I really was implying is that as a sensei you need to clearly communicate the type of practice and training that they can expect in the dojo and that you expect everyone to partake in the same experience - everyone trains together regardless of size, gender, age, ability, etc. You need to be clear that there is A LOT of physical contact in your dojo and that there are no exceptions to this physical contact. You can explain bowing is not for religious purposes and that you are in no way asking anyone to surrender their belief system to train. They can sit and watch a class and see if it is suitable for them.
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:06 PM   #294
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

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. And as far as 501(c)(3) status goes none of these people fall within a protected class. A dojo will not loose it's non-profit status if they tell stinky guy to clean up or leave, or loud guy to quite down or leave, flirty guy to stop flirting or leave or opinionated gal to stop gabbing on the mat. However, a person's religious status is a protected class for 501(c)(3) purposes.
It all depends on the charter of the organization and if it was approved by the government as such. You cannot discriminate period.

The best case example is Boy Scouts of America...a 501c. The Supreme Court upheld there ability to refuse membership to homosexual and atheist individuals based on their organizational values. They can also exclude females membership as a "Boy Scout" or "Cub Scout".

They cannot, however, exclude anyone based on religion, creed, or ethnic basis.

They cannot also exclude adult members of either sex as adult leaders.

Yes, 501c3 can be restrictive as an organization, but it cannot discriminate per se.

So you can, for example have a "Christian Only" dojo. Or a "Muslim Only" or a "male only dojo".

But those parameters must be established based on a very defined criteria and it only applies to those categories as generally recognized as historic values etc, of the organization.

You can't decide though to not allow Chinese Muslims, or Japanese Females etc or change your views midstream, or show inconsistency.

You will also cut yourself off from funding sources, as the BSA found out with United Way and other organizations that did not support those BSA values.

However, in the case of BSA, you had plenty of religious groups like the Church of Latter Day Saints that supported the BSA that have provided a great deal of support, whereas, the Unitarian Church and the BSA pretty much went there separate ways.

But yes, just because you are a 501C3 does not mean you have to accept EVERYONE...it just isn't true.

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Old 11-24-2009, 02:41 AM   #295
Flintstone
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
When she shows up for a morning class and is the one of three people on the mat; she is the only woman and the other two have religious restrictions, how the heck is her training not affected? It's not by her choice -- it's by theirs to practice their view of their religion. You can not admit here in this circumstance that her training was adversely affected?
Ok, let's not admit them in our dojo. Then she will be the only woman. Period. How the heck is her training not affected then??

You are not asking for Sensei not to admit them because of religious beliefs, but because you dislike them. And that's it. Next thing will be not to admit ugly people. Or handicapped people. How will training with a wheelchair guy affect your training? Not meaning disrespect here but... what are the chances a wheelchair handicapped people try to rape you in the lockers?

With all due respect, your basis for rejecting their admitance is hate.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:22 AM   #296
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

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Ok, let's not admit them in our dojo. Then she will be the only woman. Period. How the heck is her training not affected then??

You are not asking for Sensei not to admit them because of religious beliefs, but because you dislike them. And that's it. Next thing will be not to admit ugly people. Or handicapped people. How will training with a wheelchair guy affect your training? Not meaning disrespect here but... what are the chances a wheelchair handicapped people try to rape you in the lockers?

With all due respect, your basis for rejecting their admitance is hate.
Why can't you see throught your PC blinders. After Fort Hood, I'd think you would. Hate? Are you kidding me? Get over yourself. And, get over yourself, NOW. This is not hate. It's common sense. You'd rather be the "nice person and not offend" the religious person but in effect you end up discriminating against the women in your dojo. Think about it. Think about the double standard here. A woman's right to train in a pluralistic dojo is being adversely affected and you'd rather discriminate against here than someone who has unreasonable expectations.

Since we are talking about lack of accomodation, read through the previous postings by some of the folks who live in Islamic countries. They do NOT accomodate those who want mixed training, one of the previous postes even said that. But that's okay?

Our dojo admits people regardless of their religion. And our dojo accomodates as much as it can. To that extent I agree. Look at my first post. If they have a problemm with bowing - it DOES NOT AFFECT my training, so I don't care if they don't bow.

But I'm saying that we should only accomodate to the extent that it does not effect other people's training. We do have Muslims in our dojo who train with women and bow. They are NOT being excluded because of their religion.

It is a more radical interpretation of Sharia Law for men to not touch women. They consider it "shirk" and they have to cleanse themselves if they do touch a woman. It comes from the Whahabbist's interpretation of Islam and these stronger more fundamental beliefs are becoming more prevelant in Islamic society, even in the United States.

Quote:
It all depends on the charter of the organization and if it was approved by the government as such. You cannot discriminate period.

The best case example is Boy Scouts of America...a 501c. The Supreme Court upheld there ability to refuse membership to homosexual and atheist individuals based on their organizational values. They can also exclude females membership as a "Boy Scout" or "Cub Scout".

They cannot, however, exclude anyone based on religion, creed, or ethnic basis.
Then it would not be discrimination, if the charter of a dojo is that, all persons regardless of religion, creed or ethnicity are welcome to train in the dojo and all persons are expected to train together because of the nature of the art. It's only discrimination if you don't accomodate the person with religious restrictions. BUT those accomodations must be REASONABLE. The determination of what is resonable is whether it will cause an undue burden or adverse effect on the people involved. My is argument that ANY woman's training will be adversely affected if the accomodation against touch is allowed. You can't discriminate based on gender either, women are a protected class, too.

There was a case a few years ago about former Buddhist not wanting their children to bow to the shomen during Judo tournaments. The courts ruled that because bowing is part of the expectation of participating in Judo which is a Japanese martial art. The court ruled for the Judo Association that all person are expected and should bow at their tournaments.
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Old 11-24-2009, 11:57 AM   #297
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
You are not asking for Sensei not to admit them because of religious beliefs, but because you dislike them. And that's it. Next thing will be not to admit ugly people. Or handicapped people. How will training with a wheelchair guy affect your training? Not meaning disrespect here but... what are the chances a wheelchair handicapped people try to rape you in the lockers?
Also, Alejandro, this is called a "Slippery Slope" argument and if you took the time to stop yourself and not pre-judge me and re-read my second post you will see the difference that I was making. This is not about me disliking people. This is about me adversely experiencing the consequences of a persons religious practices which were catered to. Where did I say I disliked people because of their beliefs? I don't mind engaging in a reasoned debate, but please stop jumping to conclusions. Disagree with me is fine, but there is no need to attack me by calling me hateful.

Thank you,
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:05 PM   #298
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Oh, I see. I'm sorry anonymous user. When I say "you" I do not mean "you, anonymous user", but a plural "you".

Anyway, and going back to your example:

Quote:
Since we are talking about lack of accomodation, read through the previous postings by some of the folks who live in Islamic countries. They do NOT accomodate those who want mixed training, one of the previous postes even said that. But that's okay?
Because it is, to them, like asking them to accomodate a person that want to go lubric by grappling with their women. And there's a big diference between this and the original question.
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:47 PM   #299
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Oh, I see. I'm sorry anonymous user. When I say "you" I do not mean "you, anonymous user", but a plural "you".
Really? And how is anything I said slippery slope - meaning if "A" happens things will get progressively worse and worse and will lead to worst case possible scenario of "Z". It is a commonly understood fallacy in terms of logic and in use of debate and argument. I have not used that here. Plead point out my comments that you believe are utilizing a "slippery slope" argument.

Quote:
Anyway, and going back to your example:

Because it is, to them, like asking them to accomodate a person that want to go lubric by grappling with their women. And there's a big diference between this and the original question.
Huh? Your not making any sense. How did lewd behavior get involved in this? Please re-read my previous points - again.

To that extent I will reply, it was neither an example nor even a hypothetical. It was a real experience. The women being affected here is not muslim women wanting to practice wrestling/grappling with American men. It was conservative/fundamentalist Muslim males not wanting to practice Aikido with women. (Actually, it is possible for Muslim women to practice aikido there is such thing as a "sporting hijab", and many Muslim women in Indonesia practice aikido with men.

And my example has everything to do with Jun's request to keep our discussions limited to the impact on the 501(c)(3) (a non-profit corporation in the U.S. which has a tax-exempt status) of accomodating or not accomodating religious restrictions. I see you are from Spain are you not understanding was 501(c)(3) status is? It is something specific found U.S. Corporate Law and U.S. Tax Code. Basically the entity does not have to pay taxes so long as it is "Not for Profit" and meets the guidelines set forth in the U.S. Tax Code. Part of that is to not discriminate base on religion, race or creed.
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Old 12-01-2009, 08:09 AM   #300
Flintstone
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

I'm very aware of how Aikido is practiced in Indonesia. Thanks. So since I'm not making any sense, I don't know anything about that 501(c)(3) thingy, and I don't know who are you, let me drop out of the thread. Again.
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