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Old 11-23-2009, 02:31 AM   #1
Ernesto Lemke
Dojo: Seikokan , Leeuwarden
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Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

Found these a couple of weeks ago and was sorta expecting they'd to be put up as a link already. I'm sure they're of interest to some folks here.
Best,

Ernesto Lemke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4hSsy6KoCU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjP_d...eature=related
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Old 11-23-2009, 07:41 AM   #2
bob_stra
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Re: Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
Found these a couple of weeks ago and was sorta expecting they'd to be put up as a link already. I'm sure they're of interest to some folks here.
Best,

Ernesto Lemke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4hSsy6KoCU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjP_d...eature=related
Lovely. Thanks!

Does anyone have any comments on what they see here, vis-a-vis IS mechanics?

Last edited by bob_stra : 11-23-2009 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:07 PM   #3
DH
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Re: Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

I could post detailed accounts of these various videos; what they show, the mistakes involved, what people are missing in their bodies- both internally and in execution- and then what to do and how to fix it, but I won't. I could have done the same thing with the recently posted Yoshinkan video demonstrating that Daito ryu kodokai projection that Shioda learned from Kodo.
Personally, I think it's disingenuous to ask for commentary, critique and perhaps advice from men who can show you the ropes, and what to do when Aikido teachers remain untouchable and out of bounds for those same discussions.

You need to realize there are men here who can out-do many of the traditional teachers demonstrating on almost every meaningful level; aiki, weapons, effective connection, manipulation, and / or flat-out combative prowess. It is my view that in general, the TMA community is not yet ready to deal with that, and to be frank, would rather study for twenty years in a "system" to find out and take their chances for success.
Good luck in your training
Dan
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:28 PM   #4
bob_stra
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Re: Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I could post detailed accounts of these various videos; what they show, the mistakes involved, what people are missing in their bodies- both internally and in execution- and then what to do and how to fix it, but I won't.


You're at liberty to do as you wish, of course. No one is holding a gun to your head. Though it seems kind of a waste of time to pop up and specifically note that you won't be participating in the discussion...

Quote:
Personally, I think it's disingenuous to ask for commentary, critique and perhaps advice from men who can show you the ropes, and what to do when Aikido teachers remain untouchable and out of bounds for those same discussions.


I didn't post the clip, Dan, nor start the thread. I merely tried to move it in a productive direction (beyond "cool clip!). Anyone can contribute (or not) as they wish.

As far as I care, there are no sacred cows - it's all open season for discussion. So if there's something you want to discuss, have at it

Quote:
Good luck in your training
Dan
Luck shouldn't factor into it, though: only hard work, brains and access to information. Discussing and dissecting examples helps, too
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Old 11-24-2009, 02:45 AM   #5
Flintstone
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Re: Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

Come on, Dan, please... We do really want to know. And you guys are just way too far away. You know, we don't want the superpowers, but would very much appreciate some directions for our training.
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:30 AM   #6
Michael Douglas
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Re: Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
Found these a couple of weeks ago ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4hSsy6KoCU
Aarg, I could only watch a third of the first video.
How can anyone learn anything if their partner is a dog-barking floppy-headed ham-actor buffoon?
Ridiculous, the chunky guy should go find a better place to play.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:07 AM   #7
DH
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Re: Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post


You're at liberty to do as you wish, of course. No one is holding a gun to your head. Though it seems kind of a waste of time to pop up and specifically note that you won't be participating in the discussion...



I didn't post the clip, Dan, nor start the thread. I merely tried to move it in a productive direction (beyond "cool clip!). Anyone can contribute (or not) as they wish.

As far as I care, there are no sacred cows- it's all open season for discussion. So if there's something you want to discuss, have at it
*Note the bold comment* As far as I care,
Become more aware.
Here's some help.

Others do care- significant others. Although we were asked to discuss aikido teachers and to use videos to further the discussion:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15008
It didn't go over well, I was threatened with a law suit with lawyers publicly debating if and how that teacher could go about suing me right here on aikiweb -all with public support, and all for discussing someone's movement.
Now you want an opinion or advice and discussion about movement with someone outside of aikido?

No, not interested.

Dan
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:53 PM   #8
bob_stra
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Re: Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Now you want an opinion or advice and discussion about movement with someone outside of aikido?

No, not interested.

Dan
Uh....

This is a weird disconnect.

I'm going to restate it simply

(1) I didn't start the thread.

(2) I didn't ask for your input. But if anyone wants to discuss nuts and bolts, hey, let's do it. It could be a learning opportunity. Otherwise, we're left with 'Hey, Nice clip, Ernesto"

*shrugs*

It's all good, one way or another. If the situation you allude to occurred, I can understand how you may feel reluctance. (I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure a dry discussion of mechanics - under the auspices of 'fair comment' - is a total defense to slander. Given the potentially transitory nature of posts here, I'd imagine slander would be correct term. But what do I know)



I'll be careful in future to avoid trying to move a discussion forward

Last edited by bob_stra : 11-30-2009 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:10 PM   #9
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

I think you can freely offer your opinion on anything without worrying about legal slander/libel.

I can say for example, "In my opinion, that technique sucks and it will not work."

I cannot say, "John Doe totally sucks and I think he hangs out with goats at night, if you know what I mean."

That is, unless you actually had proof that John Doe hung out with goats and it was a declarative statement and not intended simply to be slanderous or speak of his character.

FWIW, I personally pretty much refrain from offering opinion or examples of other peoples videos that I do not know as I have found it will come back to bite you usually.

That is, unless I have the persons permission, and/or I feel I can offer a constructive statement about it.

For example: "In video 1, you will see the nage reach for tori, IMO, I don't think that will work in reality for the following reason...."

What I don't think is in good form is: "In video 1, Uke totally is jacked up, he doesn't know what he is doing at all, and THIS is not aikido and that guy should not be teaching."

Again, though, I will not typically even go there at all as there is just too much to come back on you at some point.

About the only ones I might do are the ones where someone post their own video and is looking for feedback. Even then my comments have to be more than "Well, I think you suck".

Usually though, I don't respond cause I don't feel I understand enough about what is going on in the video, or I don't feel I can competently give a constructive answer.

In alot of cases I simply think it is so bad I can't find anything nice or constructive to say, so having nothing positive to say, I find it best to leave it alone and move on.

Had too many hurt feelings over the years to go there.

However, if I post my own video, I fully expect and hope to get honest replies back...even bad ones...when I put it out there publically, I fully expect to take the heat...I think it comes with the territory.

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Old 11-30-2009, 01:15 PM   #10
MM
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Re: Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

A relevant thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=15205&page=1

There was a big outcry when that pic (image removed) was used. Note the post by Wagner about legal action.
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:24 PM   #11
Scott Harrington
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Re: Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

Some background, as I have heard, on the posted video of Ogawa Sensei.

1. This is an old video (part one of two) probably 20 years old, from VHS by Aiki News.

2. Ogawa Sensei has recently (last year or so if I recall) passed away. There is a small group of senior students teaching Ogawa-ha Aikijutsu in Tokyo.

3. Ogawa Tada had studied for 14 years with Shioda Kancho, eventually an uchi-deshi. Looking for that special "it" he went to Hokkaido and met with Kodo Horikawa Shihan and found "it" enough to make him move to this northern region and study three years till Kodo passed away.

4. Slowly becoming more comfortable with the art of aiki, he set up teaching Daito ryu Aikijutsu as taught by Kodo Horikawa.

So, several things show up.

Ogawa had a strong background in the 'hard' style of Aikido, and advanced a further step with Aiki.

From a student of Ogawa, I heard that the techniques shown on the video were what was taught, a fairly basic program of see, observe, and then attempt to duplicate.

He also stated that for pure aiki (and he has been around) Ogawa, without a fancy flurry or special timing had the real deal. From a wide range of attacks, he literally repeatedly collapsed when the technique was applied.

Now, this individual, with damn strong wrists, solid base, and alot of experience is hard to throw. But he said he did a bearhug to
Ogawa sensei and suddenly, with no grab or handling, he became glued chest to back, unable to move and then projected thru the air.

So, real.

Couple of things, in this stage of training, looking at videos, I have come to the staqe where I watch uke. If the guy is good, he has got to the spot where he can be minimal in his actions. But the reaction of uke's body and when it occurrs is where you can learn.

If you had been around Issac Newton, it would not have been possible to see how he came up with solutions, but looking at his proofs would show how he got there.

two cents.

Scott Harrington
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:08 AM   #12
DH
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Re: Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

Quote:
Scott Harrington wrote: View Post
Couple of things, in this stage of training, looking at videos, I have come to the stage where I watch uke. If the guy is good, he has got to the spot where he can be minimal in his actions. But the reaction of uke's body and when it occurrs is where you can learn.

If you had been around Issac Newton, it would not have been possible to see how he came up with solutions, but looking at his proofs would show how he got there.
two cents.
Scott Harrington
Not really
I can be minimal in my actions as well when playing with people who take ukemi. I find it far more beneficial (both for me and for my training partners) to train to actually never take ukemi and to resist with the same aiki tht is being used on them. Why? It makes damn good martial artists.

I think the whole aiki training model can be greatly improved upon by actually "teaching" aiki. After learning ukemi, I think it's time we stop taking ukemi all together and learn to use aiki to cancel out the aiki of the teacher. Then learn to move and fight with it-yes actual fighting that works.
It will make better teachers, better shihan, and better representatives- as they will need to grow and improve to deal with their own students. After training in that type of environment you should be able to go out among the "straights" and do very well. It also brings your body skills past these ridiculous and embarrassing one-step, wrist grab kata's.

And for the love of God will somebody offer feints and then connect and disconnect and kick and punch these guys? At some point will the community spar with them and have the temerity to ask
"Really? Is that all you got?"
If you keep doing the very "Japanese" one-step kata tricks- you are never going to really grow. it isn't good budo no matter who or how many may say otherwise.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-01-2009 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 12-01-2009, 12:36 PM   #13
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Ogawa Tada - aiki techniques& training methods of Kodo Horikawa

I am always fascinated by arguments that insist that rules are too restrictive for reality-based training, but simply ignore the fact that they actually just prefer different rule-sets for training. What they also ignore is that budo is as much or more about crafting rulesets for engagement that are superior in their impositions of effective discipline than those of the enemy.

The mark of effective training in not in the degree of lack of restraint in the training method. Boxing disallows biting, headbutting and hitting below the belt; even the vaunted MMA also disallows the great and venerable brawling traditions of eye-gouging, fishhooking, groin strikes, rabbit punches and trachea-breaking -- but no one ever doubts those are effective -- as war-fighting goes.

In the Roman sense of "disciplina," unrestrained brawling is simply not good training for war-fighting -- which is what budo really is. I suppose the legions were panty-waist because they did incessant "dancing" shield drills and beat up posts with a wooden rudus, as well?

Training with closely measured constraints creates the weapon of dsicipline -- and nothing else can. I am not saying that any trianing mehtod is necessarily better because it is more limited, but observing strict limits has uses. Aiki strikes me as something that is ideally in between, and can go either way.

The mark of good war-fighting is precision, dispassion and close-order in a highly chaotic environment -- and that is not enhanced by upping the default "chaos" level of the allowed responses. To the contrary, constraining allowable response to closely tailored bounds means that the chaos (when it comes, as it always comes) is far more like to remain effective than not.

If you do not believe this -- then you would just have fights, no notice, no rules, no disallowed weapons.

And also -- no budo ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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