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Old 11-04-2009, 11:20 AM   #1
Tinyboy344
 
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Confused interesting observation

Sensei showed a technique and broke everyone into groups. We had "higher ranking students" walking around ready to help if anyone was having trouble. I was doing the technique and one of them came over to take ukemi for me and he stopped my technique by being very resisting and rigid. He told me that I needed to do such and such... So I did such and such and I noticed he suddenly became a wet noodle, there was zero resistance, I was, then, able to throw him with much ease

Now I don't know if I learned the "right way" or did I learned "it's my way or no way"
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Old 11-04-2009, 12:28 PM   #2
ramenboy
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Re: interesting observation

Quote:
Duy Trinh wrote: View Post
Now I don't know if I learned the "right way" or did I learned "it's my way or no way"
yes
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Old 11-04-2009, 12:58 PM   #3
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: interesting observation

Also keep in mind that everyone learns a technique and then adapts it slightly to make it work best for them. I have learned like3 different ways to do the same variation of suwariaza ryotedori kokyuho!

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 11-04-2009, 04:45 PM   #4
Tinyboy344
 
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Wink Re: interesting observation

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Also keep in mind that everyone learns a technique and then adapts it slightly to make it work best for them. I have learned like3 different ways to do the same variation of suwariaza ryotedori kokyuho!
Oh Ashley, the technique worked on him wonderfully. Like I said above, I did it and he just went limp. It was amazing
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:31 PM   #5
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Re: interesting observation

I do this when teaching sometimes, particularly if I am trying to improve something in particular I have observed a student doing not so well.

It's not mysterious, though: after all, I know the technique and I know how to stop it. I begin the intention to check what I'm feeling at some point and to stop it the technique there if it is not right. Consider that this is actually my "attack," and note that this is considerably different than a pure attack. My intention is completely different.

I can also continue from that point as if nothing had happened. Lots of years of practice feeling what leading is, what unbalanced is, and so forth---no big deal.

It shouldn't be a mystery that a senior student or teacher can actually stop your technique. It shouldn't be a mystery that there is some "going along" or "acting" to help you learn, either. No one is teaching invincible techniques

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Old 11-04-2009, 09:34 PM   #6
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Re: interesting observation

What Joe said.
It was probably a teaching technique. I would not expect it to ever feel like my partner was "going limp" unless he decided to do so.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:57 PM   #7
Tinyboy344
 
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Re: interesting observation

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
What Joe said.
It was probably a teaching technique. I would not expect it to ever feel like my partner was "going limp" unless he decided to do so.
It was sarcasm (-.-). If the technique was actually working, it would've worked if i was still offered the same amount of resistance, but I would never know now if it's just, like I stated above, "my way or no way!!!"
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:59 PM   #8
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Re: interesting observation

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
It shouldn't be a mystery that a senior student or teacher can actually stop your technique. It shouldn't be a mystery that there is some "going along" or "acting" to help you learn, either. No one is teaching invincible techniques
I hate that crap. Going along with my technique does not help me learn anything. It gives me a false sense of accomplishment.
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:08 AM   #9
arjandevries
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Re: interesting observation

A long time ago I did an kyu examenation in front of a Japanese Shihan. My uke was one of the deshi's that accompanied him. I tryed to do a uchi Kaiten nage the way I learned it. He would not take the ukemi. Then I did it the way I thought he would do it and wham bam there he went.........

We can stop anybody when you know what is happening. You can learn something from this but not that a waza should be like this or that. We can also stop this or that...
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:46 AM   #10
Amir Krause
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Re: interesting observation

Quote:
Duy Trinh wrote: View Post
I hate that crap. Going along with my technique does not help me learn anything. It gives me a false sense of accomplishment.
Well, if someone is significantly more capable then you, he can reverse anything you can do. Evan after hardly training the last 2 years, I can easily reverse beginners (less then 2 years) techniques, at almost any phase it still makes sense. Nothing impressive about this, I know the techniques very well, much better then they do. I know most of the loop-holes and miniscule changes that require adjacent (I know those because I failed many times for each until I learned\or was taught how to adjust). I know people (my Sensei for one and a few of my Sempai for example) who can do the same to me.

This is about learning, not Aikido, not even M.A. A second grade student should not be required to solve differential equations. For a beginner to really throw me in Kata practice would be about the same. Same is true for a beginner Karateka trying to kick his senior veteran much more capable Sempai.

Training in this way -- without me helping\letting (continuously trying and failing almost always, unless I lose concentration), would not teach the beginner anything. For him to learn and develop, I need to be a good Uke -- feel his actions and respond accordingly, providing him with a challenge he can beat whenever he does something good relative to his CURRENT ability.

We learn based on feedback. A good Uke should provide one with feedback that will teach him.
Quote:
Duy Trinh wrote: View Post
Sensei showed a technique and broke everyone into groups. We had "higher ranking students" walking around ready to help if anyone was having trouble. I was doing the technique and one of them came over to take ukemi for me and he stopped my technique by being very resisting and rigid. He told me that I needed to do such and such... So I did such and such and I noticed he suddenly became a wet noodle, there was zero resistance, I was, then, able to throw him with much ease

Now I don't know if I learned the "right way" or did I learned "it's my way or no way"
Going limp on Uke side is a bad form of feedback, unless the change involved creates extensive Kuzushi, and he is trying to demonstrate this.
On the other hand, being a really good Uke, and giving precise useful feedback is extremely difficult, and going limp once you feel things are going in the right direction is a common phase (I know I did it for a while).
Even today, as I am slightly less enthusiastic about giving my body for beginners (last injuries still not fully healed), I tend to be light and go along until I find something that disturbs my following Tori lead (I try to adjust the level to the level, for a fellow Yundasha, a slight return to balance or mistiming could be enough, for a beginner -- wasting force at an opposing direction is the typical reason).

Amir
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Old 11-05-2009, 11:16 AM   #11
Tinyboy344
 
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Re: interesting observation

Guys, guys. If after "receiving the teaching", nage/tori was able to do the technique while being offer the same amount of resistance then there will be nothing to talk about. But if senior uke suddenly relax completely after telling nage to do such and such just to prove to nage and whoever is watching, "see? if you do it this way, it will work. This..... is... DA WAY, grasshoppa!" then...

Here's an exaggeration: If I try to stop a person, that's my junior, to do, let's say kokyu nage, and tell him, "You gotta whistle while lifting up one leg, then shake your rear end, all at the same time" then I threw myself in the air into a spectacular breakfall, start to have a seizure on the ground then stand up and say, "see how powerful that is?"
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Old 11-05-2009, 11:29 AM   #12
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Re: interesting observation

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
What Joe said.
It was probably a teaching technique. I would not expect it to ever feel like my partner was "going limp" unless he decided to do so.
...and he'd decide to do so for the good and sufficient reason that the technique was working. I don't really see the need to second-guess motives here -- yes, when seniors are taking ukemi, they do become compliant and "go limp" at times, but they do so when they can tell that the technique is being applied correctly and that resistance will only get them hurt.
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:23 PM   #13
Ketsan
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Re: interesting observation

Quote:
Duy Trinh wrote: View Post
Sensei showed a technique and broke everyone into groups. We had "higher ranking students" walking around ready to help if anyone was having trouble. I was doing the technique and one of them came over to take ukemi for me and he stopped my technique by being very resisting and rigid. He told me that I needed to do such and such... So I did such and such and I noticed he suddenly became a wet noodle, there was zero resistance, I was, then, able to throw him with much ease

Now I don't know if I learned the "right way" or did I learned "it's my way or no way"
It's my way or no way probably. We do this as a training exercise in our dojo so when we go on courses and people try to "teach" us this way they usually end up stomping off down the mat in a rather bad mood after being unexpectedly thrown.
I once had a rather senior instructor get really quite angry because he kept trying to lock down my shiho nage and kept getting thrown anyway. Eventually he actually had to stop me and verbally tell me what he wanted me to do and then, yep, he was like a wet noodle.

There's better ways of teaching, like just showing people the end result of their technique i.e. not falling over unless they actually throw you which is what's supposed to be happening anyway unless I'm mistaken.
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:29 PM   #14
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Re: interesting observation

In my dojo, you are supposed to "stay alive" and be willing to change, adapt or move until the point where your balance is taken. My sensei like to put you in these situations (when you are bent over from shihonage or iriminage for example) and then walk you around the dojo to make sure you aren't just fallng over.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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