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Old 11-01-2009, 08:49 PM   #1
osaya
 
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Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

I've been watching some videos of Daito Ryu demonstrations and whilst sometimes I can see (or think that I see) the control they have on their ukes via kuzushi, atari, musubi, joint locks, etc., which I have seen some aikido teachers do some of, there are certain things that they do in demonstrations that make no physical sense to me...

To start with, why do the ukes seem to show so much intense pain even under very light touch from the DR tori? And I'm not referring to some of the obvious joint locks... In certain techniques the ukes are on their tip-toes grimacing with pain, but the tori are [seemingly] simply lightly connected to their ukes via their finger tips. Hmm??

In some techniques, the ukes look like they've either been electrocuted or stunned for a few seconds during and after the techniques. What gives?

At first I thought these students were hynotised or somewhat participating in an act, but after watching more DR videos from different practitioners, I'm wondering if it's more than that. The ukes reactions (especially of pain) seems fairly genuine. Any insight anyone?
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Old 11-02-2009, 01:38 PM   #2
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

I used to take aikijitsu. I can't really say for sure (since I don't know what you are watching), but my dojo used a lot of pressure points (a couple of my teachers fav's was one by the elbow and one near the kidney). It takes very little effort, but it hurts a lot when it is done to you. If you are doing a elbow lock and a pressure point (in preperation to throw for instance) it wasn't uncommon for uke to make a face and raise up on their tippy toes. My sensei used to do this over and over to demonstrate how effective it could be (I say could because some people aren't as sensitive to pressure points- whether muscle hides it or they have a tolerance to it)

Hope that helps...

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Old 11-02-2009, 05:14 PM   #3
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Ashley hit it already. Pressure points. Also, just the positioning of the bones or ligiments in the right way/angle creates the pain. You want to get on your tippy toes to try and avoid the realigning of the bones or ligiments to take away the pain.
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Old 11-02-2009, 05:32 PM   #4
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
Ashley hit it already. Pressure points. Also, just the positioning of the bones or ligiments in the right way/angle creates the pain. You want to get on your tippy toes to try and avoid the realigning of the bones or ligiments to take away the pain.
Here's a vid of Okamoto of Roppokai Daito ryu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQyNODVDlOc

Starting at 0:17 and specifically at 0:27-0:30, could you tell me where the pressure points are that Okamoto is using?

While I've never trained with Okamoto, I highly doubt that he is simply using pressure points to affect his students. I'd believe more along the lines that Okamoto was using Daito ryu aiki.

As for demos ... well, Japan is famous for them ... in more ways than one.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:08 PM   #5
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
I used to take aikijitsu... my dojo used a lot of pressure points (a couple of my teachers fav's was one by the elbow and one near the kidney)... If you are doing a elbow lock and a pressure point (in preperation to throw for instance) it wasn't uncommon for uke to make a face and raise up on their tippy toes.
Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
Ashley hit it already. Pressure points. Also, just the positioning of the bones or ligiments in the right way/angle creates the pain. You want to get on your tippy toes to try and avoid the realigning of the bones or ligiments to take away the pain.
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Here's a vid of Okamoto of Roppokai Daito ryu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQyNODVDlOc

Starting at 0:17 and specifically at 0:27-0:30, could you tell me where the pressure points are that Okamoto is using?
Thanks for the feedback guys, I guess in some instances, I can imagine tori using pressure points, but there are some techniques, such as the one that Mark pointed out, that there's no [seemingly] visible way to activate a pressure point.

see Nishikedo Takeo 0:44-0:50 as well for instance. any thoughts there?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
While I've never trained with Okamoto, I highly doubt that he is simply using pressure points to affect his students. I'd believe more along the lines that Okamoto was using Daito ryu aiki.
Mark, could you elaborate on what you mean by "Daito ryu aiki"?

----

Even if we get past the pressure points, joint locks etc., what about the 'stunned' look that ukes tend to give after some techniques? What's happening there? Are they just resting after so much pain or is still an intentional martial after-effect of whatever is happening?

For instance:

1) Ogawa Tadao: Aiki no Waza - you can see some of this throughout the video, but it is especially prominent in the group attacks from more or less 8 minutes onwards, where the ukes all looked stunned for a few seconds with no apparent locks in some of them.

2) Nishikedo Takeo especially 5:10-5:30 amongst the other bits.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:23 PM   #6
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

I have heard a first hand account of Okamoto saying (in the middle of a seminar demonstration), "I'm not hurting them, I have no idea why they're doing this..."



There is a long tradition of trying to make your sensei look awesome, it's not just a DR thing.

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Old 11-02-2009, 07:40 PM   #7
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Quote:
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I have heard a first hand account of Okamoto saying (in the middle of a seminar demonstration), "I'm not hurting them, I have no idea why they're doing this..."



There is a long tradition of trying to make your sensei look awesome, it's not just a DR thing.
hmm... assuming what you say is true, then it would make sense, because some of the similar techniques i've seen done in aikido do not seem to elicit similar reactions of pain. uke merely has their balance taken, thrown et cetera without the intense grimace on their faces.

it'd be good to have DR practitioners who have tried it first hand to share their own experiences as well aside from our hypothesising.
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Old 11-02-2009, 11:41 PM   #8
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Another thing to keep in mind is some people just don't have a very high pain tolerance and some people just make funny faces for no reason what so ever. HAHA. In the first video posted, I didn't really take those expressions to be ones of pain, but that is just me.

As far as the second video, they look sluggish. There is one guy who I think makes a painful face and that may be for dramatic effect to benefit for the video, but for all we know someone could have stepped on his pinky toe when they were getting up....

In my class, we actually did the thing where people would pick you up and you would make yourself heavy or you would make yourself heavy and then they would try to lift you. Pretty neat if you can mentally focus. Some people would groan with trying to hold up or lft the person and some would make faces due to the effort.

As far as the third video goes, it could be a mix of all of the above. Perhaps they are experiencing things I have never felt. I am certainly not all knowing when it comes to aikijitsu, but hopefully, my thoughts help you a little... HAHA.

One more thing that may be attributing towards their shock or laying there is that sometimes my teacher would intend on doing one thing and then change technique halfway through. You had to just go with it and sometimes you found yourself going "What just happened?" Also, in my dojo, once we were down, we didn't just jump back up, we made sure it was safe and were prepared to fight from the ground if needed before making sure it was safe to stand up.

Interesting videos though.

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Old 11-03-2009, 06:15 PM   #9
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

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Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Another thing to keep in mind is some people just don't have a very high pain tolerance and some people just make funny faces for no reason what so ever. HAHA. In the first video posted, I didn't really take those expressions to be ones of pain, but that is just me.

As far as the second video, they look sluggish. There is one guy who I think makes a painful face and that may be for dramatic effect to benefit for the video, but for all we know someone could have stepped on his pinky toe when they were getting up....
It is true, in these situation, you have to ask how much ham does the camera put on. People know they are on camera and will naturally or purposely play to the camera. Talk about ki, the camera has it.

Also, in these situations, the camera eye is a narrow one. It doesn't catch everything, but than again it can catch something the eye can miss. Then there is the obvious thing, the camera can be manipulated to show and hide.

I am not saying these videos are doing this. I am pointing out these things need to be considered when looking at a video.

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Old 11-03-2009, 06:22 PM   #10
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I have heard a first hand account of Okamoto saying (in the middle of a seminar demonstration), "I'm not hurting them, I have no idea why they're doing this..."



There is a long tradition of trying to make your sensei look awesome, it's not just a DR thing.
Amen I love no touch throw Aiki Bunnies!!!

On serious note I wonder if Stan or Ellis knows the History behind such Demos...Do you think that ukes were this "dramatic" in Demo's for the Emperor back in the day...Everyone totes the power of some of the old Masters...

Just Curious...

William Hazen
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Old 11-03-2009, 06:28 PM   #11
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

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On serious note I wonder if Stan or Ellis knows the History behind such Demos...Do you think that ukes were this "dramatic" in Demo's for the Emperor back in the day...Everyone totes the power of some of the old Masters...
true - it'll be nice to hear from people who have significant, direct experience with DR and/or other koryu jujutsu.
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Old 11-03-2009, 06:37 PM   #12
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Here's a great example of the Power of Aiki?

All this guy has to do is touch uke's and they freeze up in great pain...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4q4z...eature=related...

Where are these guys on the West Coast I wonder?

William Hazen
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Old 11-04-2009, 12:12 PM   #13
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

My sensei told me he went to a demonstration once where the sensei claimed to be able to send his ki across the room and his students would fly backwards and get knocked down while standing feet away from the sensei. Some guy called him on it saying it looked fake and the sensei asked if the mean wanted to feel it. They guy stood up and said "Yes." The sensei then took his stance and sent his ki over to the guy. The guy just stood there. The sensei then asked "Do you feel it?" The guy said no. The sensei made a face, looked like he was straining and said "YOU FEEL IT!" This was more a statement then a question. The guy still replied no. The sensei then put his hands down and walked away. Sensei didn't say what happened after that. He told us this story in a tai chi class one night.

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Old 11-04-2009, 12:20 PM   #14
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

To reference a term from Ellis's book HIPS, what the ukes may be suffering from is DRAS (Daito Ryu Accommendation Syndrome). Very similar to AAS (Aikido Accommendation Syndrome)

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Old 11-04-2009, 04:05 PM   #15
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

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To reference a term from Ellis's book HIPS, what the ukes may be suffering from is DRAS (Daito Ryu Accommendation Syndrome). Very similar to AAS (Aikido Accommendation Syndrome)
aww, i'm really disappointed now. i was wondering/hoping that there was really something 'extra' that i was just unaware about. oh well, back to just training then eh?
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Old 11-04-2009, 05:16 PM   #16
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Here's a vid of Okamoto of Roppokai Daito ryu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQyNODVDlOc

Starting at 0:17 and specifically at 0:27-0:30, could you tell me where the pressure points are that Okamoto is using?

While I've never trained with Okamoto, I highly doubt that he is simply using pressure points to affect his students. I'd believe more along the lines that Okamoto was using Daito ryu aiki.

As for demos ... well, Japan is famous for them ... in more ways than one.
I have no idea what is going on in the video. However, I was listening to one koryu jujitsu person who is very legit from a different style. He stated that he had attended some DR seminars and when the DR sensei stopped the technique he would just stand up ready for more yet the DR sensei's students were still wiggling around. He asked the DR sensei what's going on and the DR sensei said that he had no idea why the his students were acting the way they were.
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Old 11-04-2009, 05:43 PM   #17
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I have heard a first hand account of Okamoto saying (in the middle of a seminar demonstration), "I'm not hurting them, I have no idea why they're doing this..."
Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
To reference a term from Ellis's book HIPS, what the ukes may be suffering from is DRAS (Daito Ryu Accommendation Syndrome).
Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
I was listening to one koryu jujitsu person who is very legit from a different style. He stated that he had attended some DR seminars and when the DR sensei stopped the technique he would just stand up ready for more yet the DR sensei's students were still wiggling around. He asked the DR sensei what's going on and the DR sensei said that he had no idea why the his students were acting the way they were.
Hmm, barring any offers of direct experience, the 2nd/3rd hand anecdotal accounts seem to be strongly suggesting that the reactions are mostly a case of BS and over-acting. this is quite sad really. i'm still waiting to hear someone credible argue otherwise but i'm restarting to be disillusioned...
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:05 PM   #18
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

So here's the problem I have.
The teacher says he has no idea why the students are doing what they are doing. So why is he letting it happen? Imagine hooking up with some attractive person who dovetails with whatever your sexual orientation is, and you run your finger down your hook up's arm and they start going, "Aooooogah, Aoooogah, Aoooogah" And you stop touching them but they start rolling on the floor, going , "Oh, baby, don't stop, don't stop, Aoooogah, Aooogah!" Are you going to be, like, "Yeah, baby! You want some more?' waving your hands around in the air and they are going, "Aaaoooooooooooooooogha" (whooops, sorry, mispelled that) Aaaoooooooogah!"
Me, I'd be running, or at least saying, "What the hell are you doing?"
So why does a martial arts teacher not say, "What are you doing? Get up off the floor, you are embarassing yourself and your entire family down to the fifth generation. Your dead grandmother is ashamed she gave birth to your mother who gave birth to you!"

Man, I've been doing this stuff for forty years and sometimes, martial arts are so stupid!
Ellis Amdur

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Old 11-04-2009, 10:26 PM   #19
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Damn Ellis, that visualization is gonna stick with me for a while now...thanks!

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Old 11-04-2009, 11:17 PM   #20
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Quote:
So why does a martial arts teacher not say, "What are you doing? Get up off the floor, you are embarassing yourself and your entire family down to the fifth generation.
E-G-O, and lack of concern for their students in allowing "themselves" to just enjoy the fun. People can try and qualify it any way they like. It is what it is, and most experienced men- see it for what it is.

There are ways to train Aiki to assure honesty that leads to a path that will deepen skills that most men will never attain in their life time, but in order to go down that road; you have to be willing to fail over and over, and fail against your own students-when you train them to grow increasingly in aiki, then train with strangers who will attack all out with a vested interested in tuning you.
In fact it is that very training that will deepen the real power in the art. At a certain point the men with power need to walk away from having people take any kind of ukemi for them. Anything other than all out resistance will continue to weaken you and make you a lesser man.
I found some of the comments by Sagawa particularly poignant. Over and over I felt a kinship with his mentality; he simply would just…not…stop, till he solved every riddle, every failure and dilemma he encountered. I'm not going to bother with quotes or keys to ways to train that he hinted at, or to discuss things I bet he missed and probably never saw because he didn't go down certain roads that would have deepened his skills even more. People aren't ready to hear it.

IME, Daito ryu will forever remain a shadow of what it is truly capable of in the modern age. It cannot be attained with their current training models. Were they to consider altering their training models, the study would proceed to an ever increasing burning in of the essential body skills contained within the art to effect change in very substantial ways. In the process the art would once again prove to be a powerhouse in any venue; Koryu weapons, modern weapons, and in MMA.

There is a way to take the Aiki in the art of Daito ryu beyond the best the Japanese have to offer, but the Japanese are not capable of doing it that I've ever felt, heard or seen. And I don't feel bad about it. When I hear the umbrage from certain people in the art when the videos are critiqued and judged on-line, I am always surprised:
They train they way they do
And they film it.
What sort of reaction do they expect from an increasingly educated world wide community? And how on earth can they be so suprised? They've done it to themselves.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-04-2009 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 11-04-2009, 11:26 PM   #21
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Here's a great example of the Power of Aiki?

All this guy has to do is touch uke's and they freeze up in great pain...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4q4z...eature=related...

Where are these guys on the West Coast I wonder?

William Hazen
Not west coasters but from Mass. Maybe they visited once and was infected with something ....Tony Annesi been working his schtick since the 80's. I think he really believes in his abilities. If you want to feel ki balls of fire look into the eyes and ask a certain soke of some willow something arother school what he thinks of this guy.... Of course, maybe I got the wrong impression.

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Old 11-04-2009, 11:35 PM   #22
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Not west coasters but from Mass. Maybe they visited once and was infected with something ....Tony Annesi been working his schtick since the 80's. I think he really believes in his abilities. If you want to feel ki balls of fire look into the eyes and ask a certain soke of some willow something arother school what he thinks of this guy.... Of course, maybe I got the wrong impression.
LOL No dude I meant why don't we have some of these dudes on the West Coast I would love to have a bit of fun being overwhelmed by Soke Fireballs and stuff...But alas... All the 10 Dans are located elsewhere...Must be something to do with So Cal being a Mecca of Real No BS Martial Arts .

William Hazen
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Old 11-04-2009, 11:45 PM   #23
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

William, I guarantee they are out there in So Cal...you just don't know where to find them! They are everywhere my friend!

The problem is if you go to their seminar you really are agreeing to play by their rules implicitly, so IMO, it becomes difficult and a little wrong to go in with an agenda to screw with them.

I think the best thing to do is either go, be polite and train with an open mind...or don't go at all.

I haven't been to a seminar yet that I either don't agree with everything they are doing, or I don't understand completely. However I am pretty good about the seminars I do go to, so I usually get alot out of going!

That said, based on the Youtube vids shown here...not to bad mouth anyone, but I have not felt compelled to seek any of these guys out based on the vids.

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Old 11-05-2009, 08:01 AM   #24
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
... they start going, "Aooooogah, Aoooogah, Aoooogah" And you stop touching them but they start rolling on the floor, going , "Oh, baby, don't stop, don't stop, Aoooogah, Aooogah!" Are you going to be, like, "Yeah, baby! You want some more?'
On Rigel IV that *is* sex. I'm not sure I see your point.
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:53 AM   #25
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Re: Pain and control in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu

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The problem is if you go to their seminar you really are agreeing to play by their rules implicitly, so IMO, it becomes difficult and a little wrong to go in with an agenda to screw with them.
Interesting. Is there a point where you can receive the technique and let it stand for its own worth without countering it or "doing" something to the teacher but his efforts are worthless?

Where is it legitimate to stand in front of Geroge Dillman or other "Ki blast" people and see their efforts completely fail, and come on-line and everyone enjoys a good laugh; then see the same community get "offended" when the subject is a beloved Shihan of their's who's lack is obvious to some, while being completely unseen to their student base?

When "the community" is not able to see what is obvious to others, who leads the way? When are some of the budo "giants" nothing more than another version of the same "Ki blasts" guys to others. I guess it all depends on who is doing the testing and judging.

Quote:
I think the best thing to do is either go, be polite and train with an open mind...or don't go at all.
Thats one way to look at it. Another might be to call it for what it is to the teachers face. Another is to just do your own thing and let it stand, ignore the nut jobs and ner-do-wells and let the masses just flounder like they always have. Budo is a living legacy of giants who stood out from the budo wallpaper. IOW, the vast majoirty of practioners were always nothing more than a measurement of the mean average.

What about abuse in Seminars? What about the host of the seminar and the attendees putting up with it to "gain something?" What does it say about those who accept the behavior? I know an aikido teacher who had both his shoulders torn by a well known teacher.
Who is worse:
The one doing the damage?
The one accepting it?
The one hosting a known abuser?
When is it "damaging" to challenge those teachers on the spot and tell them to leave their own seminar-or just deck them or knock them on their ass? When is assualt of a student a criminal act?
For that matter, when is it "damaging" to the community to accept abuse, or even just plain ineptetude or even poor teaching skills?

Quote:
That said, based on the Youtube vids shown here...not to bad mouth anyone, but I have not felt compelled to seek any of these guys out based on the vids.
To return to the subject
This man doesn't know aikijujutsu. He has "hosted" (ahh that lovely role) two legitimate teachers of aikijujutsu, and that is where his involvement ends. I have stood in his dojo on several occasions. I could discuss his history and approach to the arts, his skill level and his lineage, but I find it disingenuous for a community to "welcome" discussions of people like him, without discussing the antics of other legitimate teachers who are equally inept, or are abusers, or who simply can't teach.

Any given community defines what they all can agree is a laughing stock and what is martial arts. At the end of the day, is it best to not say anything and let the community waste a lot of valuable time, or be sent to the hospital for making a "perceived" insult to a teacher they didn't see? Or do you stand up and call it for what it is or call a teacher out for abusing people? I guess it all depends on what the "majority" in any given community can "see" and thus "approve" in a discussion doesn't it?
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-05-2009 at 10:03 AM.
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