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Old 10-28-2009, 09:00 PM   #26
David Yap
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
David....did you just do your breakfall?....I just did ikkyu to you.
Thanks, Kevin, for the ikkyu.

I was sitting on my throne when your ikkyu came. It literally took the shit of me.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:39 PM   #27
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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I never knew there was "so much grappling" in Aikido. I know in my dojo, we do grappling alot like we always do in Tomiki Aikido. The concept is that you have to fight as well on the ground as you do standing.
This is a very curious statement. Tomiki was adamant that the ma ai of Aikido precluded the execution of Ju-waza with his concept of rikaku taisei or waza that can be applied outside of Judo grappling range (iow aiki waza). Basically if one mastered the ma ai of aiki waza then one never gets into the range where close range hip/leg/shoulder throws and takedowns can be executed, which means that it will be very unlikely that one will end up in a ground grappling situation.

Tomiki saw Judo and Aikido as separate Budo sharing common principles. In that light I don't think he ever taught ground grappling as part of his Aikido, since this was strictly part of the Judo syllabus. If one wanted to grapple or do newaza one would study Judo, he did not mix them afaik.

I think if one is looking at Budo holistically one needs to understand ground grappling, but it is not necessary for the understanding of aikido waza if one has an effective training method imho.

Best
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 10-29-2009, 07:24 AM   #28
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Tyson Boles wrote: View Post
Hello and osu,
Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?
I'm no expert and I'm not sure about "Aikido", but in Yoseikan Budo, which has significant elements of Aikido, we recognize events don't always happen as we plan them. Often times, the uke responds in an unexpected, unchoreographed manner, so it is best to prepare for all ranges.
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:14 PM   #29
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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A static grab is not grappling. Aikido would be SO much better if it started with real grappling (by which I mean basic judo tachiwaza).
Grappling in judo is newaza, not tachi waza. Tachi waza is standing techniques.
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:21 PM   #30
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
This is a very curious statement. Tomiki was adamant that the ma ai of Aikido precluded the execution of Ju-waza with his concept of rikaku taisei or waza that can be applied outside of Judo grappling range (iow aiki waza). Basically if one mastered the ma ai of aiki waza then one never gets into the range where close range hip/leg/shoulder throws and takedowns can be executed, which means that it will be very unlikely that one will end up in a ground grappling situation.

Tomiki saw Judo and Aikido as separate Budo sharing common principles. In that light I don't think he ever taught ground grappling as part of his Aikido, since this was strictly part of the Judo syllabus. If one wanted to grapple or do newaza one would study Judo, he did not mix them afaik.

I think if one is looking at Budo holistically one needs to understand ground grappling, but it is not necessary for the understanding of aikido waza if one has an effective training method imho.

Best
LC
As I have trained under Tomiki Shihan for many years (15), we did a lot of tachi waza and as we took them to the ground, we would go into ne waza---shime waza, kansetsu waza etc. Shiho nage would lead into Kata Gatame and then to juji gatame etc, etc. Tomiki Shihan did not mix the arts but you did train paralleling each art and work on the ability to switch from one technique to another.
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:24 PM   #31
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

agree that newaza is ground technique, and tachi waza is standing...however, grappling occurs in BOTH orientations I think if you want to be more specific and accurate.

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Old 11-17-2009, 01:24 PM   #32
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Grappling in judo is newaza, not tachi waza. Tachi waza is standing techniques.
Grappling is an English word, thus my clarification. Grappling is not exclusively newaza.

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Old 11-27-2009, 02:37 PM   #33
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

"Grappling" in tachi waza is called "Kumi Kata"--Gripping or grip fighting. "Grappling" on the mat is Newaza.
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Old 11-27-2009, 02:51 PM   #34
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
"Grappling" in tachi waza is called "Kumi Kata"--Gripping or grip fighting. "Grappling" on the mat is Newaza.
You mean Go no Keiko is Kumi Kata?
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:29 PM   #35
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Well as it pertains to so much "grabbing" in aikido (without getting caught up in the semantics of what grappling is or isn't):

Practicality:
Grabbing techniques is a great way to begin learning techniques b/c one doesn't have to worry about intercepting an attack...the person has already grabbed (ok, this isn't for everybody...my style usually practices that they guy or gal has already grabbed you before you start technique). So this body to body connection has already been made, thus making it "easier" to some extent. Well, simpler, not easier.

Historically:
Aikido is derived from Aikijujustsu, which is basically derived from what I call a form of Samurai Line training (what the US Marine Corps used to call hand to hand combat for the battlefield). Since samurai wore armor, kicking and punching were more or less worthless. Thus techniques that focused on manipulating the weak parts of the armor (ie, joints) was focused on (terrible grammar, sorry). The focus most groups do on open-hand to weapon combat is also a derivative of the idea that a warrior could lose/break a weapon and need to defend against armed attack.

At least that's pretty much what I would say if asked that questions on the koto shitsumon portion of a test.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:35 AM   #36
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
As I have trained under Tomiki Shihan for many years (15), we did a lot of tachi waza and as we took them to the ground, we would go into ne waza---shime waza, kansetsu waza etc.
Really? Care to give the exact times and places where this training happened? I personally know a few people who trained with Tomiki Shihan so it would be good to compare notes.

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Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
Shiho nage would lead into Kata Gatame and then to juji gatame etc, etc. Tomiki Shihan did not mix the arts but you did train paralleling each art and work on the ability to switch from one technique to another.
The ability to switch between Tachi and Newaza is something that anyone with enough training in Judo and Aikido can develop. This is an element of ones personal development as a martial artist but is not necessarily representative of ones training system. If I cross train in Muay Thai and use it in my personal training and sparring it does not mean that Muay Thai is part of the official Aikido syllabus.

Regardles of what Tomiki may or may not have done during his own personal exploration of Budo, the Shodokan Aikido system that he founded does not allow such transitions as part of its training syllabus. In the execution of Tachi waza if one has become vulnerable to any sort of newaza from a Shodokan perspective it means that ones use of sen, kamae, tai sabaki, ma ai and tegatana were poor. The whole point of the Kihon exercises done at the beginning of every class is to develop these core areas.

It is important to differentiate personal experience from what the system actually teaches. I have no doubt that Tomiki could switch effortlessly between Ju and Aiki waza including newaza, but it does not mean that this is what he wanted to pass on as the fundamentals of his Aikido.

Quote:
agree that newaza is ground technique, and tachi waza is standing...however, grappling occurs in BOTH orientations I think if you want to be more specific and accurate.
Kevin is correct imho.

Just my thoughts.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:15 AM   #37
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
It is important to differentiate personal experience from what the system actually teaches. I have no doubt that Tomiki could switch effortlessly between Ju and Aiki waza including newaza, but it does not mean that this is what he wanted to pass on as the fundamentals of his Aikido.
Well, this is the fundamental point of the Aikido of Mochizuki Sensei. Judo Aikido Ichi. And this is (I believe) what he wanted to pass on as (one of) the fundamentals of his Aikido.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:24 PM   #38
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Well, this is the fundamental point of the Aikido of Mochizuki Sensei. Judo Aikido Ichi. And this is (I believe) what he wanted to pass on as (one of) the fundamentals of his Aikido.
Should that not be Judo, Aikido, Karate Ichi? Or is Karate not part of Mochizuki's Yoseikan Budo?

Tomiki saw Aikido as a section of Japanese Budo (Atemi and Kansetsu Waza) that could stand on its own merits without one needing to resort to Judo waza (or anything else) to make it work. This is part of why he formulated the method that he did. As a very skilled Judoka who was rendered helpless by Ueshiba's Aiki early in their relationship I think he realised that there was a skillset within Aikido that was important to preserve and understand. Something that his years of Judo training may not have prepared him for. I think in that light he felt it better to maintain separate training methods for the two arts, even though they relied on the same basic principles.

Imho of course.

LC

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Old 11-29-2009, 02:50 PM   #39
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Interesting Larry...thanks for that insight.

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Old 11-29-2009, 05:54 PM   #40
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Should that not be Judo, Aikido, Karate Ichi? Or is Karate not part of Mochizuki's Yoseikan Budo?
Actually, the first (and I would say most fundamental) kata in the Yoseikan is Happoken, eight striking and blocking movements...

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Tomiki saw Aikido as a section of Japanese Budo (Atemi and Kansetsu Waza) that could stand on its own merits without one needing to resort to Judo waza (or anything else) to make it work. This is part of why he formulated the method that he did. As a very skilled Judoka who was rendered helpless by Ueshiba's Aiki early in their relationship I think he realised that there was a skillset within Aikido that was important to preserve and understand. Something that his years of Judo training may not have prepared him for. I think in that light he felt it better to maintain separate training methods for the two arts, even though they relied on the same basic principles.
Yes, you're right. What I meant is that even when Tomiki separated the two in his method, Mochizuki believed in a Sogo Budo, with go, ju and aiki principals as an integrated whole. Not to forget the buki waza of the Yoseikan Shinto Ryu.

At the end of the day, it's what Tomiki also said: "Aikido is judo at a distance". I see a shared point between Tomiki and Mochizuki here.
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:46 PM   #41
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Good discussion. I think that is why I like all three AIkido, Judo, and BJJ. Aikido does an in depth study in one range (mid range). One in which weapons work very well. Judo does a good job, I think, working close range, stand up, grappling, and BJJ, of course ne waza.

Of course, there are things that can be added and assumed in each phase with cross over, but I think, they each have merit in and of themselves.

I also believe in studying them separate and distinct as I get a great deal out of the experts that have refined skills in each of these systems that might be lost if they were combined.

Anyway...just some thoughts, good discussion.

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Old 11-30-2009, 06:06 AM   #42
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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I also believe in studying them separate and distinct as I get a great deal out of the experts that have refined skills in each of these systems that might be lost if they were combined.
That's a good way to put it. The only glitch I see with that aproach is the transition between the arts. You also need to study and practice them, but then I suppose that at a certain level you pretty much can figure out how to transition.

Thanks. Me likes the thread too
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:58 AM   #43
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
That's a good way to put it. The only glitch I see with that aproach is the transition between the arts. You also need to study and practice them, but then I suppose that at a certain level you pretty much can figure out how to transition.

Thanks. Me likes the thread too
This is a good discussion.

I think that another common bond between Tomiki and Mochizuki is their belief in various types of randori and competition for the benefit of learning. In my experience there is a large gap between paired kata training with varied levels of resistance and even shite randori. And then yet another gap from shite to jiyu randori. In my (limited) opinion, training with increasing levels of resistance combined with increasing levels of uncertainty during randori, steadily bring it all together while maintaining fundamentals.

Thank the heavens and Judo's influence for randori.

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 11-30-2009 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 09:09 AM   #44
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
That's a good way to put it. The only glitch I see with that aproach is the transition between the arts. You also need to study and practice them, but then I suppose that at a certain level you pretty much can figure out how to transition.

Thanks. Me likes the thread too
What has been most interesting to me is the figuring it out piece.

Each Method (Aikido, Judo, BJJ) invokes rules, norms, assumptions, restrictions, etc.

So when I started BJJ as an Aikidoka, I thought "no problem, I will pick this up quickly!" I didn't. Then going from Judo from BJJ, thought the same thing...of course I got tossed alot.

"how can I be that much of a beginner?" I thought each time, it is the same stuff!

Yet each practice represents a distillation of a practice and the practicioners of that methodology get quite adept at exploiting the rules/strategies that are "allowed".

So, while you have "skillz" you are all messed up when you....for example, Can't bend over at the waist stall and grab the pant leg in Judo. Or in Jiu Jitsu you find that laying on your back for 25 seconds is not a good thing in Judo....or that in Aikido that awesome gripping game you develop in Judo doesn't quite cut it if the guy can strike you or has a knife.

So, I think it gives you the opportunity to practice and learn some finer details that each system/method has refined by restricting the practice to those areas.

After a while, you get adept at moving between the rules and recognizing them for what they are.

Putting it back together into your system I think has to be done on your own, although, frankly I find Aikido allows for the greatest opportunity for this to occur as ironically I think it is the least restrictive...which I also think is part of the problem with Aikido as well since it is so damn complicated to deal with such a subtle practice!

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Old 11-30-2009, 09:11 AM   #45
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
This is a good discussion.

I think that another common bond between Tomiki and Mochizuki is their belief in various types of randori and competition for the benefit of learning. In my experience there is a large gap between paired kata training with varied levels of resistance and even shite randori. And then yet another gap from shite to jiyu randori. In my (limited) opinion, training with increasing levels of resistance combined with increasing levels of uncertainty during randori, steadily bring it all together while maintaining fundamentals.

Thank the heavens and Judo's influence for randori.
I have no experience with the Aikido you mention above (Tomiki and Mochizuki), but I agree, and yes, thank the heavens for Judo's influence!

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Old 11-30-2009, 09:28 AM   #46
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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I have no experience with the Aikido you mention above (Tomiki and Mochizuki), but I agree, and yes, thank the heavens for Judo's influence!
You would love it if you tried. You fund yourself "fighting" for shihonage-ing and following up with a ude hisigi juji gatame in a blink. That's what I meant .

Of course, if you have the time to take aikido, judo and BJJ that's great!! What I meant with the figuring it out thing, is that once you are experienced in those systems, going from kotegaeshi to kata or kesa gatame just come without thinking how to get there. Something you won't learn in judo or aikido alone.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:01 AM   #47
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Oh, I see what you mean! Yea, I do things sometimes in AIkido that aikidoka are not used to seeing. LIke them doing ikkyo on me only to have me go down the roll around into a dela riva guard then around their back, standing back up to iriminage!

What it teaches you I think is that the fight is not over when you think it is over...and posture matters...always! If you stay "on" and keep pressing close with good posture, these things are not possible in aikido. However, if you get lazy and default to "ikkyo and down"...and break your intent/posture because you have some affects in your practice cause no one ever does this type of set up...then this is possible.

It reinforces the importance of keeping aware, alive, and focus throughout the "lifecycle" of the technique, which is much longer than you might think it is.

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Old 11-30-2009, 11:23 AM   #48
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

For the record I have no experience training in Tomiki Aikido, I have only read about them and watched some videos of randori and competition.

The great thing about Yoseikan jiyu randori, is that it provides a venue to experiment and learn how all of these various ranges (from weapons to ne waza) fit together while under various levels of stress. You can start out with weapons and end up on the mat trying to submit your opponent in the same session. It's a ton of fun, too!

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 11-30-2009 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:12 PM   #49
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
You would love it if you tried. You fund yourself "fighting" for shihonage-ing and following up with a ude hisigi juji gatame in a blink. That's what I meant .

Of course, if you have the time to take aikido, judo and BJJ that's great!!
Good stuff.

This is why I also practice Akayama Ryu Jujutsu, a tradition-based school that draws much of its aiki waza from Shodokan Aikido. The result is that I have an environment that allows and encourages that instantaneous switch from Aiki waza to Ju waza to Ne Waza during Jujutsu randori. This may or may not include weapons and striking and is done at varying resistance levels.

The result is that Jujutsu students of mine learn how to transition in their tactics as ma ai decreases from long, to medium to short range and then to ground fighting and sacrifice techniques. Since this system pretty much allows for any waza to be used in any situation, students get to apply wrist locks and elbows in ne waza, turn aigamae ate (irimi nage) into osoto gari if timing is off or drop into a sacrifice tai otoshi and move into kesa gatame.

On the flip side my Aikido students are sometimes challenged in kata or randori practice by Jujutsu style takedowns during their execution of waza to test their ability to maintain kamae and stability or to exert power in ways that does not allow them to be compromised by some of the typical Jujutsu or Judo responses to the Aikido waza.

Fun stuff.

Best

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 11-30-2009 at 02:16 PM.

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Old 11-30-2009, 02:27 PM   #50
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Sounds a little familiar Mr. Camejo! I've always wanted to meet up and train with Barlow Sensei up in Alabama.

I don't have too much experience, so I may be missing something, but I have a hard time understanding the purpose of training exclusively in one particular range. It just leaves sooo many holes.

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 11-30-2009 at 02:35 PM.
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