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Old 10-27-2009, 09:43 AM   #1
tyson
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Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Hello and osu,
Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?
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Old 10-27-2009, 09:51 AM   #2
jss
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

1. Aikido is a form of Japanese jujutsu. Jujutsu implies grappling.
2. We don't train atemi frequently enough.
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:33 AM   #3
Abasan
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

We don't.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:44 AM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

I don't.

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:52 AM   #5
jss
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Then what do you all you non-grapplers do? Besides being terse, that is.
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Old 10-27-2009, 11:13 AM   #6
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Maybe you should define what you mean by grappling, because I haven't been to many aikido dojo's where it is a staple.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:21 PM   #7
ChrisMoses
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

A static grab is not grappling. Aikido would be SO much better if it started with real grappling (by which I mean basic judo tachiwaza).

Chris Moses
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:23 PM   #8
Abasan
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

I cut to the point.

Hmmm, terse is good!

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:42 PM   #9
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

I grapple and it was helpful for me to come to terms with this process in my aikido since static grabs simply don't do much for me personally.

Grappling gave'/gives me a context in which to work through things and to develop real skills and to have experiences in a dynamic environment.

It is an important element for me.

That said, I am using that base to "move away" from grappling and to try find something of a higher skill which kinda negates grappling...I am working on that.

I don't, however, understand how you can reach this understanding without understanding the physical struggle of grappling and be able to deal with it....so, it is still an important part of my training and I think it always will.

As far as Aiki goes though...I don't believe that grappling does much to teach those skills and if you don't keep grappling in the right context of your training then it can actually hurt you in your development.

So, no....it is not necessary to grapple to learn aikido. I believe Aikido is about transcending this process..however, I also believe that training context in the form of grappling, kicks, punches etc are important to understand if you want to have a holistic view of budo.

There are plenty of peope out there that practice aikido without this that I think are great human beings, are learning what they are want to without this aspect...and are better for it...so YMMV on this subject.

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Old 10-27-2009, 12:44 PM   #10
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
I cut to the point.

Hmmm, terse is good!
lol...you and Janet didn't "grapple" with this question at all did you?

hmmm lots of wisdom in there maybe!

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Old 10-27-2009, 06:05 PM   #11
Janet Rosen
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

"Just the facts, ma'am" :-)

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Old 10-28-2009, 03:50 AM   #12
sorokod
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Then what do you all you non-grapplers do? Besides being terse, that is.
Kumitachi and Kumijo.

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Old 10-28-2009, 04:08 AM   #13
Abasan
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Kevin,

I think he meant as in Aikido-Grappling as opposed to Extra Curricular Grappling like you're doing with BJJ...

Which funnily enough, I'm trying to persuade my missus to try out since she's flipped the coin on Aikido going from total devotion to total hatred.

Anyway, I'm planning to take BJJ next year hopefully... but there's too many things going on at once right now with my struggles to learn aiki from a sensei living in another country, Kali, Silat and life...
So here's hoping.

Btw, Leo Vieira was here to do a 2 day BJJ seminar recently. My friends all commented that this guy grapples very softly very aiki like even against MMA level competitors. This I like. Unfortunately his seminar fees can bust my piggy bank with my upcoming Indonesian trip this weekend so I gave it a miss.

Last edited by Abasan : 10-28-2009 at 04:14 AM.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 10-28-2009, 02:02 PM   #14
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

I never knew there was "so much grappling" in Aikido. I know in my dojo, we do grappling alot like we always do in Tomiki Aikido. The concept is that you have to fight as well on the ground as you do standing. There is no guarantee that you won't wind up on the ground so it's always best to be prepared.
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Old 10-28-2009, 03:33 PM   #15
Janet Rosen
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

I notice the OP hasn't replied to clarify his question...

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Old 10-28-2009, 04:57 PM   #16
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Kevin,

I think he meant as in Aikido-Grappling as opposed to Extra Curricular Grappling like you're doing with BJJ...

Which funnily enough, I'm trying to persuade my missus to try out since she's flipped the coin on Aikido going from total devotion to total hatred.

Anyway, I'm planning to take BJJ next year hopefully... but there's too many things going on at once right now with my struggles to learn aiki from a sensei living in another country, Kali, Silat and life...
So here's hoping.

Btw, Leo Vieira was here to do a 2 day BJJ seminar recently. My friends all commented that this guy grapples very softly very aiki like even against MMA level competitors. This I like. Unfortunately his seminar fees can bust my piggy bank with my upcoming Indonesian trip this weekend so I gave it a miss.
Leo is a awesome guy a real gentleman! I used to train with his instructor Jacare some and Jacare introduced me to him at the European BJJ Championships in 2008 in Lisbon.

Is there any other way really? (soft).

What you will find in BJJ is that at first you are overwhelmed with the difference in movements...much like you were in aikido.

The tendency is to use fast and strong movements. You will even have alot of success against white/blue belts, but as you progress, this is not the case at the upper purple/brown/black belt level as every strong proprioceptive movement is picked up well before you move so you have to learn how to relax, control center, breath and move in a very effiicient and precise way.

I am personally working very hard and slowing this way down and being very soft and very gentle..it is hard because you have to invest very heavily in failure and it is very tempting to go back to strength and speed.

Nah, my grappling is not so extra curriclular these days and I really make no distinction in the randori or waza practice as to me, it is all the same...the goal is that there is no difference about your application or movement in Aikido or BJJ...it is all the same.

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 10-28-2009 at 04:58 PM. Reason: spelling.

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Old 10-28-2009, 06:38 PM   #17
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

It's because holding is more gentle, and often more effective, than hitting.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:20 PM   #18
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

awwww.....that is sooo nice Lyle!

I'll go one further...engaging without touching is even better than that!

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Old 10-28-2009, 07:49 PM   #19
Ketsan
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Quote:
Tyson Boles wrote: View Post
Hello and osu,
Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?
That's kinda like asking why a Thai boxer uses so much striking.
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:57 PM   #20
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
A static grab is not grappling. Aikido would be SO much better if it started with real grappling (by which I mean basic judo tachiwaza).
Then it would be Judo. The basic strategy of Aikido is to flatten your opponent before he can resist, not deliberately get into a resistive situation and try and free yourself from your own mistake.
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:05 PM   #21
Ketsan
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

I feel really old reading this thread. Seriously when I started martial arts about 12 years ago everyone knew that some arts were grappling arts and some were striking arts. Boxing, Muay Thai, TKD, Kickboxing and Karate were the striking arts and Judo, Wrestling, Aikido and Jujutsu were the grappling arts. Everyone knew this.

Then the UFC and BJJ came along and now all you kids with your new fangled ideas think that the only grappling art is BJJ. I feel so old.
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:28 PM   #22
Ketsan
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Then what do you all you non-grapplers do? Besides being terse, that is.
Had to be asked really, didn't it? If you're claiming to be an Aikidoka and you claim you don't grapple then one must conclude that you only practice no touch throws.

Grapple:

--verb (used without object) 1. to hold or make fast to something, as with a grapple.
2. to use a grapple.
3. to seize another, or each other, in a firm grip, as in wrestling; clinch.
4. to engage in a struggle or close encounter (usually fol. by with): He was grappling with a boy twice his size.
5. to try to overcome or deal (usually fol. by with): to grapple with a problem.

--verb (used with object) 6. to seize, hold, or fasten with or as with a grapple.
7. to seize in a grip, take hold of: The thug grappled him around the neck.

--noun 8. a hook or an iron instrument by which one thing, as a ship, fastens onto another; grapnel.
9. a seizing or gripping.
10. a grip or close hold in wrestling or hand-to-hand fighting.
11. a close, hand-to-hand fight.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:09 PM   #23
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
I feel really old reading this thread. Seriously when I started martial arts about 12 years ago everyone knew that some arts were grappling arts and some were striking arts. Boxing, Muay Thai, TKD, Kickboxing and Karate were the striking arts and Judo, Wrestling, Aikido and Jujutsu were the grappling arts. Everyone knew this.

Then the UFC and BJJ came along and now all you kids with your new fangled ideas think that the only grappling art is BJJ. I feel so old.
Of course not...however, BJJ offers us the best chance these days of experiencing grappling with the most minimal amount of rules and the use of a Gi/clothing with maybe the exception of sambo.

There is the GAME of BJJ which is played alot on your back and in many respects does not represent reality per se.

BUT, from all my experiences, I have found it to be free enough to be a wonderful fit to work through the same lessons we are dealing with in aikido.

Judo is also a wonderful art and does a great job of working throws, however, it has become such a sport that has become almost too and they simply do not practice ne waza enough in most cases to make it a good match for learning the lessons we are trying to learn in aikido.

That said, Judo is also a decent fit I think out of all the grappling forms since it does have the basic elements and you have a Gi/Clothing.

Sambo, which is not as well known in the US is very good as well...and they wear a Gi.

Then there are all the forms of wrestling which do not wear a Gi. I prefer Greco Roman as an Adjunct practice because of the rules dealing with throws and takedowns which allow someone to learn some very good skills in this area without a gi.

But again, it does not have a Gi so very difficult to work on developing skills and slowing down the fight to a workable level. I find that speed, agility, and athleticism become very important factors since you don't have a GI.

Done right though, it can be a very good practice as well...I just think wrestling with No Gi's are harder to learn and do not approximate "DA STREET" maybe as well as GI based arts.

Submission Grappling (NO GI) is decent, but you will find that most guys that do this sport spend a fair amount of time in a GI as well to round out there training.

I know several coaches in the UFC area that are advocates of there guys training with Gis in order to develop skills.

That, however, is a constant debate in the GI/NO GI community about which is better for MMA type fighting.

Anyway, as usual YMMV. I simply prefer BJJ as I have found it to be technical enough, and slow enough to allow you the opportunity to fully explore the principles we are trying to explore.

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Old 10-28-2009, 09:21 PM   #24
David Yap
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Had to be asked really, didn't it? If you're claiming to be an Aikidoka and you claim you don't grapple then one must conclude that you only practice no touch throws.
Alex,

Beside no touch throws, I also do no touch ikkyu, nikkyu, sankyu and yonkyu. I can even do a fantastic no touch shihonage.

All in my solo practice, of course

Cheers,

David Y
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:23 PM   #25
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Re: Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

David....did you just do your breakfall?....I just did ikkyu to you.

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