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Old 10-27-2009, 05:19 PM   #101
eyrie
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Good posts Budd... and thanks for bringing this thread back on track.

Ignatius
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Old 10-27-2009, 06:22 PM   #102
David Orange
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I'll hazard the expense of pixels. You can see that -- but you can't see the chopstick ?

Motion and stress are equivalent and interchangeable. By EITHER dropping weight (in visible motion as he does) OR setting a line of equivalent stress in the same orientation (i.e, -- in juuji -- right angles), the effect is the same -- if you let the torsional shear take over to cause a slight gyration in the contact angle. The attacker's support (in the video) tends to shear away behind him (like the chopstick) -- his push is mainly cancelled by adverse moment at his base -- not leverage at his contact. It's the same thing -- just looser. Only a shear can do this.
Well, to me that pretty well describes the external mechanics but knowing more about what Gleason Sensei is doing internally, what Dan showed us in August, this is the kind of thing that makes me believe you don't yet see the difference between external and internal--or more correctly, you don't yet see that there is something different going on internally than what appears mechanically visible.

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Watching Shioda's tippy-toe randori -- is like watching some elfin rhinoceros doing demolition ballet, and often shearing the base toward instead of away. Shioda often tends to like going up (releasing the compression spiral and extending), instead of down (releasing the tensile spiral and retracting or dropping). But it's all still the same action. Action in one spiral is potential in the other. Both stresses are always available if you start in shear, and initial up or down orientation of action is equally available if you start in tenchi.

Both the tensile spiral line or the compression spiral line can draw the base in any direction, depending on only a slight imparted gyrational moment -- supplied by the shear torsion stress itself. As Endo shows (and as push-hands does), these stress-and-motion lines easily alternate continuously and seamlessly -- in-yo ho and if not compensated by the same mechanism, cause waves of progressive joint buckling -- up to and including the juncture at the base of support.
Again, a lot of this sounds like more or less external mechanical description of physics and the IT usage has a different motive than the externally visible movement. And to my eye, Endo Sensei's movement also reflected that. What I saw there looked like something of an external approximation of what Akuzawa does in a very different way. The relationship I felt between Endo and the uke didn't look to be of the same quality as I've seen and felt with Ark and Dan.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Please tell me you guys really can see all this ?
Yes, I can see what you're saying, but it only describes the measurable physics of the mechanical event--not the internal movement that initiates the outward action you see as the effect. So, yes, I see what you're saying, but it doesn't lead me to believe you have yet seen what most everyone else is discussing.

Sorry.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 10-27-2009, 07:22 PM   #103
Marc Abrams
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Kevin

I am not overly impressed with Ushiro's movement, neither are some others in the current IT crowd.
IMO, he, like a few others have developed a certain part of these skills. No, I am not talking about their fighting skills, or waza, I am talking about IP/Aiki.
FWIW, I would be counted among those stating it is not aikido, nor will it necessarily produce better aikido. there are other methods more in keeping with aikido is.

Dan
Dan:

With all due respect (and you know that I have a lot of respect for you), your impressions about Ushiro Sensei's movements and those un-named other IP people seem to me to be little more than hubris from a distance.

What if he has a set of skills that are simple quantum leaps above with some in the current IP world show to others? Without first hand experience, what certainty would you like to place on your assumptions?

You yourself encourage people to feel what is going on before making comments from a position of supposed and assumed knowledge about what is and what is not going on. He will be back again in May and I fully encourage you to attend and gets some hands on experience before you truly stand behind your comment. Ikeda Sensei would certainly not agree with your position and I would venture to say that he is in a better position than you to comment on what may or may not help Aikido. Then again, everybody is entitled to their opinions. Ushiro Sensei, like you, encourages all to come and see & feel first hand what is really there (as opposed to what you might assume is there or not there). AFTER you have some first-hand knowledge, then we can discuss things from a point of real experience.

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-27-2009, 07:37 PM   #104
David Orange
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
...to my eye, Endo Sensei's movement also reflected that. What I saw there looked like something of an external approximation of what Akuzawa does...
Specifically, see Endo's video at 24 or 25 seconds, where the uke is doing that sort of fish-flopping and actually seems to be exagerrating it, himself.

Compare that to this whole video of Ark. Does that really look the same?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 10-27-2009, 07:57 PM   #105
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Dan,

Didn't really want to re-quote your whole post....

Nope, you are right you never have said that anyone should leave aikido...there are a few out there that I think are a little hard on themselves and the art and have abandoned it a little too much instead of taking on a leadership roll in the art and trying to actually fix the parts that are broke. Those comments are directed at those observations from the many discussion here on aikiweb that seem to go in that direction for what ever reason.

Comments on Ushiro...not really sure what purpose it serves to come out and say those things, you could have shared that with me or whom ever else would care about that in private, does it really serve any of us any good to say that about him publically?

Doesn't it do more to drive folks underground or away and continue the same old petty crap that Budd addresses?

Maybe I am "under educated" or mis informed in this area of training and I am a bad judge of what quality Aiki training should be. I will be the first to admit that Dan.

Heck, remember the conversations we had a few years back? I wasn't exactly on board with this was I? and we had some pretty heated discussions right?

Well, since then I believe I have had my hands on...well lets see.. MIke, Ark, Toby, and Ushiro now....all of them have provided me with some great training and I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to study with them and believe I have taken away something from all those exposures. all of them except you, who'd of ever thought i'd do that...lol...not me.

So, yea, maybe I am in the best place to judge what is good or not good...got it.

I'd love to get with you some time and train as well so I can better understand what it is that is different and better than what Ushiro does. It would be cool now that I had my hands on him as well!

I have a vacation planned up to New Hampshire 10 - 17 January and I am looking for a place to stay FRI/SAT night on the way up to break up the trip....maybe MA is a good place to stop over???

Or we could meet up in May again when Ushiro comes back, all though that is probably not the best place.

Or not at all...that is cool too with me as I am very happy with where I am right now and have enough on my plate to do for a while...but it would be fun to meet you after all these years and I say that in the most sincere way.

but like I said, not a big deal if not....I am having too good of a time training right now to really care too much about "testing" folks and "trying" it out...I just want to train and as you say...get as many experiences under my belt as I can and grow.

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Old 10-27-2009, 09:43 PM   #106
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Hit the post button by mistake too early:

[Taking a simple thought exercise as an example:
Let's say you have two people, A&B.
A & B are facing each other, feet shoulder width apart, knees relatively straight, hands down by sides.
A then reaches over and holds B down with both hands applying a dumb force (non-jin), to hold the wrists down. If you were A how would you off balance them, and take their balance? Would you "have" to move the arms to do so?
Hey,
Rob John, would you apply atari? To get under?
No, I do not know how to go all Sagawa and get agete up and all over their asses.
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Old 10-27-2009, 09:50 PM   #107
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

I guess the question is how would you apply atari?
Not by "having" to move the arms...but by 'breathing' them in?
What do you think happens at the moment of the outbreath? You mentioned the 'other' thing for hardness; care to say a bit more? i would love to hear what you think. cheers bud.
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:00 PM   #108
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

...since i'm posting compulsively right now; I thought i'd point out that i really liked this post ----> http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=28 by ashe. thanks for all of the ideas.

i really loved these bits
Quote:
the five qualities of unification are universal to all movement. absorb and project, expand and condense, the three planes, open and close and concave and convex. no matter how you move you'll be moving using those qualities, just a matter of whether or not they're coordinated properly.
Quote:
yang path and yin path form two X' on the body, yang travels away from the ming men to the hands and feet and yin travels back to the dan tien. the yang actually wraps around the hips (from the ming men) to travel down the front of the legs, to the big toe, to the little toe where it joins the yin path from the little toe to the center of the foot, up the rear of the leg, into the groin, the perineum and to the dan tien. on the upper body it travels from the ming men, across the back, down the outside of the arm to the hands and back up the inside of the arms to the front of the body to the dan tien.
is this right?: When using your body in practice:
Yang path is the strong alignment path when pushing away from the body, on that alignment and the limb is getting further from the body.
Yin path is the strong path when pushing out but limb is returning to the body (such as to brace the body on impact when you 'zip-up')

I found there are many ways they label what a yin and what a yang path are? but mostly because i have no clue. anyone care to volunteer the secret of the universe?
Quote:
if you can control the hands and the upper and lower masses, then you will in effect have "jammed" or "frozen" the opponent on touch.
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:29 PM   #109
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

ok; last one; just for fun
Joep asked about what the tension is that is being trained...remember?
ok; well, about that... I had some thoughts. (Don't know ... just thoughts, ok))
I think it is the force exerted by the 'whole body' connected together to itself. It is all bound up in a closed loop, right? It is the force, or tension, if you will, that literally holds us together. The sinews that run from extent-to-extent, in the body. Bone, muscle, fascia, groundpath, suit. All that stuff. Imagine you wanted to actually pull off my shin bone from my knee (!). I know, crazy,eh? Well..Imagine you wanted to violate that 'closed loop' of the body. keep following along: It would take you tremendous force to actually pull that leg bone off. To 'break that circuit'. So, therefore there is tremendous potential energy bound up in the body.... and making it balanced, stable...and flexible...and kokyu conducting groundpath.. (etc). Now train 'it' ....if it, in any way, itt could make all those things better.. I think making yourself into a kokyu alignment makes you non-local(/everywhere) in the way that pretty easily (should you possess the skill) you can manifest the entire body's momentum anywhere on your body into a target. But it has to all be connected, or hooked-up. Trained. Probably, if you have the skill, it is, as Mike says, and it feels like a rubber eraser when you focus the effort and the groundpath to a point. The force(s) that 'zip-up' your body into a cohesive unit are those tensions (which I think) you seek to train.
Also..I think it is the 'general force' that defines just exactly how big your body is (under your skin), and/or grows to. (hence Takeda's big hands)
That is the general idea, anyway...
again; that random thought is sponsored by the events of the last few weeks and months. my opinion subject to change, as always... my0.02$. hope it was interesting.

p.s. Hey Joep - did you get to see the Shioda chest bump to your satisfaction?
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Old 10-28-2009, 03:49 AM   #110
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
ok; last one; just for fun
Joep asked about what the tension is that is being trained...remember?
ok; well, about that... I had some thoughts. (Don't know ... just thoughts, ok))
I think it is the force exerted by the 'whole body' connected together to itself. It is all bound up in a closed loop, right? It is the force, or tension, if you will, that literally holds us together. The sinews that run from extent-to-extent, in the body. Bone, muscle, fascia, groundpath, suit. All that stuff.
To keep it simple, the tension being trained is the stretching of the suit. Groundpath has little to do with it at the beginning. Bone, tendon, fascia makes more sense than bone, muscle, fascia. You could say bone, muscle, fascia and tendon, if you use a hard approach to these skills. Throwing bone, muscle, fascia, groundpath and suit together, is just confusing.

Quote:
p.s. Hey Joep - did you get to see the Shioda chest bump to your satisfaction?
Nope, didn't get to it.
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Old 10-28-2009, 06:50 AM   #111
phitruong
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

hey, i thought this is a discussion about the hard and soft approaches of IT/IP/aiki trainings? what with all the chest thumping "i got it" and "he doesn't have it" stuffs? cut that out! don't make me go back there and show you my stainless-steel-protector-cup kungfu!

discussion of some common pitfalls/warning-signs in hard and soft approaches would be more interesting. things like:

would it take longer or shorter between hard and soft?
would hard approach has the tendency to lean toward more muscle mix into jin/kokyu?
would soft approach has the tendency to give one the illusion of grandeur?
and so on and so forth.... ad spewing-chow ...

yes, i know some of you don't like to discuss openly about these things or coaching on the internet, so you folks can go off and doing whatever that you are doing and let us amateurs exchange ideas. remember, that us amateurs are out number you experts, by probably a factor of 10. in another word, don't make us ganging on you! "quantity is a quality of itself!" in the same vein as "never start a fast food restaurant in china!"
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:33 AM   #112
DH
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Hello Marc
I think you missed my point and since it seems to be a sensitive issue I will attempt to expand on it.
You see it as a put down of him, I see it as two different topics within the martial arts, and some times they overlap. As I -also- said, "There are a lot of great martial artists; some are very powerful, others have sophisticated figthing skills, which can be very impressive and feel magical, some have highly refined weapons work etc. but they are not internal guys. While other Maers have developed particular *aspects* of internal movement in their overal skills- it doesn't mean they are the possessor of *everything* by way of IP/Aiki. There are guys who are simply magicians with their arts, it does not make them complete internal experts. Where does technical brilliance of movement in fighting fit in?
My point being- regardless of the quality and sophistication- not all movement is internal, not all internal movement is the same. And where highly refined technical brilliance overlaps with highly developed but singular internal skills, it can confuse a lot of people.

Martial arts
There are any number of men who are excellent at their craft. Opinions vary, but I could probably list a couple of dozen that I personally like. Is there a requirement that they all have to be internal MAers now? Is that the new standard? That would be ridiculous.
There are any number of Koryu guys I like to watch; do all of their movements have to be highly refined internal movement now? Can't I just appreciate the internal aspects here and there, while also appreciating their art?

Of people who train internals; not all of them are the same either. There are ways to train the body that are not part of what aikido movement is, there are ways to train that are more in keeping with aikido movement. There are several things I know how to do that really have nothing to do with aikido movement.

Aikido
I guess the only question is who knows what is what, can do things and explain the difference. I understand your approach; "that aikido people are the best judge of what is fitting for aikido." I say it all the time myself. I think the difference is that when I make the statement there is always an implied qualifier; something like this:

It does no good to try and explain a body of skills that most MAers are completely unaware of, cannot do, and do not know how to train. They are being exposed to a myriad of approaches from several people who themselves have chosen to accent or develop certain areas over others with different personal end goals in mind. Here's where it gets tricky
Some may be very powerful and impressive, but in the end it may turn out to be not the correct approach for aikido. Some, aikido people may like power so they will pick that method, they can call it correct all day long with no one to stop them, but it doesn't make it correct. Now, each of those teachers may have their own opinions of what they do, what the other teachers are doing, and where it all fits into aikido; the power guy may just might say one thing, while the soft guy says another.
Who is going to be the best judge of all of that?
Who do you listen to among the many voices?

The internal guys know more about the subject then the aikido teachers, the aikido teachers know more about what they want in their art, but since they don't know internals, there will be some mistakes made, there will be some correct choices made, and some will change their mind (some already have).
In the end you are your best guide.
So when asked I look at all of that and think "There's no real way to wind your way through that maze other than to just go do it."
So I say "Aikido teachers are ultimately the best judge of what they need for their art."

I've watched some pretty strong opinions here change dramatically over time. I just don't think its over yet.
I see it as a process; not an absolute. Growth and understanding can be difficult. I think all of us will be having a different discussion in a few years when more people start to understand power V soft power.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:04 AM   #113
DH
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
hey, i thought this is a discussion about the hard and soft approaches of IT/IP/aiki trainings? what with all the chest thumping "i got it" and "he doesn't have it" stuffs? cut that out! don't make me go back there and show you my stainless-steel-protector-cup kungfu!

discussion of some common pitfalls/warning-signs in hard and soft approaches would be more interesting. things like:

would it take longer or shorter between hard and soft?
would hard approach has the tendency to lean toward more muscle mix into jin/kokyu?
would soft approach has the tendency to give one the illusion of grandeur?
and so on and so forth.... ad spewing-chow ...

yes, i know some of you don't like to discuss openly about these things or coaching on the internet, so you folks can go off and doing whatever that you are doing and let us amateurs exchange ideas. remember, that us amateurs are out number you experts, by probably a factor of 10. in another word, don't make us ganging on you! "quantity is a quality of itself!" in the same vein as "never start a fast food restaurant in china!"
Hard is easier
Soft takes longer
Most like hard training
Hard can feel soft...go train with some good jujutsu guys
Soft can feel hard...go get hit by some soft internal guys

One real problem is who to go to and where to find it.
Since "the hard can feel soft" and "the soft can be hard," you might want to also consider that
"Hard can just be...hard"
"Soft can just be useless."
My opinion is soft is the best way to train long term as it contains the best of both qualities and it doesn't fade. Hard cannot do what soft does.

So I guess you just go everywhere and try everyone and you be the judge.
Good luck in your search
Dan
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:27 AM   #114
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, to me that pretty well describes the external mechanics ...
.. then we have that out of the way...

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
but knowing more about what Gleason Sensei is doing internally, what Dan showed us in August, this is the kind of thing ...
.. and without engaging the remainder of this argument, let me simply ask some questions to see if we agree:

Do we agree that unless action is intuitive it cannot function martially?

Do we agree that intuition, to be effective, must be based on something concrete?

Do we agree that intuition can have different foundations of perception (or emphases on perception) on which to operate?

Do we agree that the action through "intent" and these other concepts is a concrete intuitional approach ?

Do we agree that the ideas of "frame" "structure" "enter/leaving" and "capturing" are concrete foundations on which intuition operates ?

Do we agree that those concepts, as used, are idiosyncratic -- simply meaning that they are used in a sense other than their common meaning, and that without direct introduction to the concrete action that they signify (or relating them in some more generally common or objective terms), they communicate very little of the idea?

Do we agree that some of these concretes, as used, refer to immediate impressions of subjective sensation, rather than the objectively described elements of the action occurring ?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Yes, I can see what you're saying, but it only describes the measurable physics of the mechanical event--not the internal movement that initiates the outward action you see as the effect.
...
Sorry.

David
Not at all, this is fruitful conversation.

Do we agree that, just as intuition can learn to follow "intent," frame," etc. as a basis to implement action spontaneously, that, intuition might also learn follow objectively described modes of structural response as a basis to implement action spontaneously?

Do we agree that one can usually find ways to explain something one has learned, or recognize it when explained, in terms other than the terms by which it was learned?

Given your response to all of the above, can you describe in other terms what Gleason is doing and what Dan showed you ?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:44 AM   #115
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Erick,

Why are you so intent to displaying what you think is an understanding of internal mechanics as to sabotage the theme of this thread?
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:51 AM   #116
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Just to chime in on the "Development Methods" . . not that anyone is necessarily recommending otherwise, but I think it's pretty critical that you pick a method and get some baseline skills going before you do the "Visit person X and do a little bit of A, then Visit person Y and do a little bit of B". They aren't necessarily doing the same thing and the bits of conditioning you are picking up from both aren't necessarily working together to improve you overall.

So, pick something and stick with it long enough to get some demonstrable results. By demonstrable, I mean that you have a laid out set of criteria that have been modeled that you are training towards with checkpoints of success/fail/good/bad along the way. If you get something and then immediately modify it to suit "what you are already doing" then you are in danger of losing the "new stuff" you're supposed to be getting from it at the onset.

So you (obsessively?) work to condition the internal methods you have been given, level setting as best as possible, getting feedback where you can on how you're progressing according to the paradigm laid out in front of you. After that point, that's when I'd recommend getting some additional exposure - with an open mind. Differences in approaches should be more noticeable, your questions will be more informed and it will prevent you from doing the long road to middleground of just doing what you got from the last seminar.

On the other, hand, depending on what you're looking for, there's merit in meeting as many people as possible and seeing which approach works for you the best . . but how will you make that informed decision until you have the information? Especially since this kind of information needs to be communicated, discovered, analyzed, rediscovered, etc . . It's iterative, not just an "I saw it, I get it now" kind of undertaking . .
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:56 AM   #117
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
... Bone, tendon, fascia makes more sense than bone, muscle, fascia. You could say bone, muscle, fascia and tendon, if you use a hard approach to these skills. ...
Hi Joep,
`Thanks for your post.
Something I was wondering about... you know in 'western' medicine/bodyview that we usually talk about the myofascia. Myo=muscle & fascia = well, you know. I was thinking it is a 'composite' structure and not really separable. Is that a mistake on my part?! Is this the whole point?! I am not sure what is implied by 'separating' these two parts. Is it what is trained? Is it, among other things, and in other words, that you want to actuate (/move) the fascia separately (i.e. use it in such a way that it physically separates/dissociates/slides from/on the muscle)? In regards to 'the changed body': Is 'hard' 'just' the conditioning (where conditioning = hydrated, soft, connected, capable of swelling) of the fascia and 'soft' the same conditioning plus the ability for *centered* movement of (paths or axes of) it?

just some questions and thoughts... I realize I probably got a whole bunch of stuff wrong; so I'll mention that I do appreciate it when you correct me..

I'm pretty sure I don't understand the difference between hard and soft methods. Anything you can say about that is definitely appreciated.
Cheers man,
Josh
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:01 AM   #118
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Something I was wondering about... you know in 'western' medicine/bodyview that we usually talk about the myofascia. Myo=muscle & fascia = well, you know. I was thinking it is a 'composite' structure and not really separable. Is that a mistake on my part?!
See my reply about the difference between hard and soft below. It may be very hard to separate muscle and fascia anatomically, but in training the difference does matter.

Quote:
Is it, among other things, and in other words, that you want to actuate (/move) the fascia separately (i.e. use it in such a way that it physically separates/dissociates/slides from/on the muscle)?
I don't know. I don't think about the fascia while training, but the limited amount of data that is available, points to the involvement of the fascia.

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I'm pretty sure I don't understand the difference between hard and soft methods.
As far as I understand, the harder methods use a substantial amount of muscle to train the suit; the softer methods use as little muscle as possible.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:40 AM   #119
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Erick,

Why are you so intent to displaying what you think is an understanding of internal mechanics as to sabotage the theme of this thread?
Is inferring the intent of another person a point of this discussion? Is this not a discussion? Is not the theme "development methods" -- as in plural? Is there not a discussion already ongoing as to being open to several perspectives without making prejudgments of supposed motive, rather than of substance -- whether to qualify, question or rebut the substance of the points raised ?

Is it "sabotage" to engage a genuinely civil and questioning criticism with some simple questions about the premises of the critique?


Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:42 AM   #120
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post

As far as I understand, the harder methods use a substantial amount of muscle to train the suit; the softer methods use as little muscle as possible.
Overall great discussion guys.

Anyway to clarify, since Aunkai is considered a 'hard' method, my interpretation is that it is hard because it prioritizes the frame and keeping it in tact (even in awkward positions). This serves as a foundation for 'higher', softer skills. It basically sets up the body to understand aiki/soft skills better. Even Sagawa said that you need strong legs and you need to train the back before you can even do aiki. In any case, Aunkai tanren consists of first training the frame--from there you move on and 'throw away the frame' (Ark's words), and my interpretation of that is that you start finding ways to train softer skills in solo tanren, paired exercises, and freestyle sparring/grappling.

Another example is Judo. There is definitely something internal in Judo in the higher levels. Just look at Mifune. Tim Fong and I were discussing this and he said that Kano would say that Judokas should focus on Tsukuri (setting up a good position for athrow) and then polish up Kake (execution of throw). We think that Kuzushi itself was 'higher' level and perhaps (this is what I think) all the dues you pay focusing on tsukuri would develop a frame from which you can understand the kind of Kuzushi that a guy like Mifune can effortlessly do.

I recently played with some Roppokai guys, had some great fun, and the teacher had aiki. The students too were able to do some aiki, but the difference was in the bodies. The instructor had a frame..the students didn't. It was because during the whole class, there was no tanren, no conditioning, just learning how to manipulate the balance of the uke (not through conventional, vector-manipulating ways like in a lot of aikido practise). And upon reflecting, I don't think the students would be able to perform aiki under pressure, their bodies would go out of wack, and prevent them from executing aiki. The teacher would most probably be able to, but I'm not too sure (this is why it's important we test out with guys who don't play the tori/uke game). Developing muscle through 'hard' approaches (particularly muscle in the legs and in the back) is just a byproduct of setting up a balanced and stable body. We don't develop the muscle to 'train' the suit, at least not directly. Aunkai can now then revert to 'softness'--i.e., we now 'throw away the frame'--and rely on less on the strength of the legs and the back and now try to condition the 'suit' to manipulate the uke. It all depends on how you chart your training progress.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:50 AM   #121
David Orange
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
hey, i thought this is a discussion about the hard and soft approaches of IT/IP/aiki trainings? what with all the chest thumping "i got it" and "he doesn't have it" stuffs? cut that out! don't make me go back there and show you my stainless-steel-protector-cup kungfu!
Phi...those things can be dangerous at the wrong moment!

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Careful out there!!!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:53 AM   #122
Marc Abrams
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Marc
I think you missed my point and since it seems to be a sensitive issue I will attempt to expand on it.
You see it as a put down of him, I see it as two different topics within the martial arts, and some times they overlap. As I -also- said, "There are a lot of great martial artists; some are very powerful, others have sophisticated figthing skills, which can be very impressive and feel magical, some have highly refined weapons work etc. but they are not internal guys. While other Maers have developed particular *aspects* of internal movement in their overal skills- it doesn't mean they are the possessor of *everything* by way of IP/Aiki. There are guys who are simply magicians with their arts, it does not make them complete internal experts. Where does technical brilliance of movement in fighting fit in?
My point being- regardless of the quality and sophistication- not all movement is internal, not all internal movement is the same. And where highly refined technical brilliance overlaps with highly developed but singular internal skills, it can confuse a lot of people.

Cheers
Dan
Dan:

I did not necessarily take it as a put down. I simply suggest that until you have some hands-on experience with him you might want to qualify your observations. I frankly would be fascinated by your interactions with him. Some of the stuff that he does (not surprisingly, a lot of the unusual stuff is not often times done in public) might lead you to reconsider your ideas of what constitutes internal power and the boundaries and uses of that power. I am not even beginning to talk about his fighting skills. You and I will talk privately about this area. We had a well respected mathematical physicist attend and the talks over the weekend at my house were quite interesting (to say the least).

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:55 AM   #123
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Is inferring the intent of another person a point of this discussion? Is this not a discussion? Is not the theme "development methods" -- as in plural? Is there not a discussion already ongoing as to being open to several perspectives without making prejudgments of supposed motive, rather than of substance -- whether to qualify, question or rebut the substance of the points raised ?

Is it "sabotage" to engage a genuinely civil and questioning criticism with some simple questions about the premises of the critique?

Huh?

I don't mean to be harsh but nobody cares about what you think about Gleason's movement because 1) to repeat what everyone says: you're not speaking the same language as the guys who're familiar in internal power development methods (namely Rob, Mike, and Dan) 2) it doesn't say anything about comparing 'hard' methods vs. softer methods.

I actually take back the word 'sabotage' because the attention is no longer on you now and nobody is asking you to shut up and telling you that you don't know anything. That would be considered sabotage, because people would go from discussing something valuable like certain dynamics about internal training to useless things like kindly telling a person to shut their yappin and pappin.

But really, I am really genuinely curious why you out of nowhere chime in like that with your physics handbook in a discussion where people know that ou don' tknow anything and that they don't care about what you have to say, no matter how pretty your words might appear.
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Old 10-28-2009, 10:06 AM   #124
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I actually take back the word 'sabotage' because the attention is no longer on you now and nobody is asking you to shut up and telling you that you don't know anything. That would be considered sabotage, because people would go from discussing something valuable like certain dynamics about internal training to useless things like kindly telling a person to shut their yappin and pappin.
Seriously?
May I suggest the ignore button then?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-28-2009 at 10:08 AM.

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Old 10-28-2009, 10:08 AM   #125
David Orange
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
There is definitely something internal in Judo in the higher levels. Just look at Mifune. Tim Fong and I were discussing this and he said that Kano would say that Judokas should focus on Tsukuri (setting up a good position for athrow) and then polish up Kake (execution of throw). We think that Kuzushi itself was 'higher' level and perhaps (this is what I think) all the dues you pay focusing on tsukuri would develop a frame from which you can understand the kind of Kuzushi that a guy like Mifune can effortlessly do.
Since my teacher was uchi deshi to Mifune, I got a lot more judo experience than I wanted or expected when I trained in his aikido. I definitely believe that aikido in general is much improved by judo experience. If nothing else, it gives a more realistic sense of what a real struggle a fight can be. And it lets the learner "lose" a lot. I think part of the weakness of aikido is that we never "lose" (in most aikido I've experienced) and so the teachers and senior people can get an over-inflated sense of their own abilities to avoid being caught in a real struggle. They tend to think they can't get into that kind of thing. It's good to find out early and not forget.

As for kuzushi, I think Mifune is a great example for what he "doesn't" do to achieve it. It's such a pleasure to watch him go and flip these huge guys and it's hard to see where he does anything until it's just suddenly done and uke is on the floor.

If we can say that judo uses internal skills (and I'll say some does, some doesn't), I think it must be in maintaining correct "frame" until uke makes a slight mistake, then being in shape, form and position to enter tsukuri with only a small movement. In other words, let him step into the spot and you just remain in good organization to capitalize on that. In particular, I worked a lot on the four major sweeps--osoto gari, ko soto gari, o uchi gari and ko uchi gari--looking for the moment where my simply being upright and relaxed would end up with me "fitted in" perfectly to his body to simply perform the reaps.

I think that level of work still amounted to external form, but it was moving more toward internal than anything I'd done prior to that. And I do think that a lot of what Mifune did was just that. Some guy supposedly said, "I'm younger, stronger, bigger and faster than you, so why do you always beat me?" and Mifune just said, "You take two steps, I take one." Which is what I was trying to accomplish with my foot-sweep methods.

As for Aunkai, lately, I'm thinking a lot about my few conversations with Ark in Atlanta, where he explained that his method was "choritsu" or "tuning" the body. Now I think of that (as he's sometimes said) as being like "tuning" a piano string. Or maybe a harp string. He tunes the body between heaven and earth and his technique is all about his own body's adjustment to energy that comes upon him from outside. If you touch him, you pluck that tuned harp string and you get the "ring" back into yourself as his body does whatever it needs to do to maintain its tuning between earth and sky. Of course, the harder you strike or pluck a harp string, the louder and more powerful the feedback will be.

I think it cannot be overemphasized that "internal" refers to the techniques happening within one's own body--not outside or between tori and uke. It happens inside "tori" and the effect on uke is because he is touching tori while tori makes the adjustment within himself.

And that is where I saw the big difference between what Endo showed in that clip on Atari and what Ark showed in the clip on Nyu Ryoku.

Really fascinating.

Best to all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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