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Old 10-27-2009, 10:13 AM   #76
DH
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Hello
I don't like to recommend people; good or bad, when I don't know what they know and how well or willingly they will teach.
Example: The teacher in your video is doing a very basic jin "trick"
Most of the Aunkai guys can do that; as it is a spin off of one of their very basic training drills. Most of my people can do that as well.
It will be sad if this stuff is considered "high level" or even extraordinary when it is kindergarten work. in fact, the skill is so low level that one wonders why the film was not done with the students doing it to each other. And to really get the point across-why the video is not of students cancelling out each other. That skill is not exactly something I would be "showing off" any day soon!

Once you have established a basic frame, you can handle simple muscle force-in. What you do after that can be simple mechanical tricks (frequently considered high level jujutsu), or it can be even more developed internal mechanics.
Were we to meet I could show you how that skill was the original skill used to do most of the basic wrist grabs things, and why it is thee only correct way to move for single and double wrist grab tenkans. One you understand it; there are ways to develop yourself so that no point of contact on your body matters at all, the same rules apply. Some of the Japanese art big name guys demonstrate some forms of that as well.

Everyone that keeps talking about ten chi jin and gravity and "getting under" are really only discussing first step things in IP/Aiki. You have to go through it in order to train it and be able to use it, but many of the visible skills you see, have several ways of being performed. Let's just say that one can "meet" by absorbing and entering at the same time and that-THAT- can be in several places at once! Further, that the means do to so can happen in several ways.
At this point I will stop as I reserve information for public places where it can be verified that the receiver of the information could not do it, or understand it, had ever heard of it before and didn't have a clue. That way when he or she appears later and tells everyone they knew it along; they can be outed for the kind of people they really are.
We must of course recognize that some, or even most of this knowledge really is out there in various places, right? So we can wonder why it is that to date; we don't see IP/Aiki being demonstrated all that well by anyone in the JMA. For that reason I will continue to reserve "how to's.".

Past simple tricks
At a point, the Japanese arts fail in reaching higher level skills. You will simply not advance to anything meaningful until people stop the Tori / Uke training model. At some point you have to take your "high level skills" and go out and test against freestyle attacks from people outside the system, or better still; people with high level skills train against high level people and test each other.
It is my opinion that the former was the chief reason Takeda traveled so much to supposedly "teach." It is patently obvious he didn't really teach many people at all. I think that he was doing shugyo and teaching himself.
In the same vein, I think the smartest thing that traditional Japanese art shihans could ever do in their entire professional career would be to "take-on" someone like me. Once more and more traditional Japanese shihan feel aiki's real potential without restriction and in total freedom of expression- it will open their eyes to the marvelous potential ahead of them.

The traditional Japanese art teachers I spoke of that I would not recommend; was for the simple reason that their skills in this area are apparently not that well developed. There is a lot you can do with some basic skills and good waza that impress quite a few people. When I see the antics of many of the big name men in the JMA training with their ukes, and the JMA community being impressed with that, I just scratch my head and say "Really guys... I mean...really?"

Watching the current crop of Japanese Shihans, limiting themselves to only going to other Japanese teachers is really quite appropriate and typical. Unless something changes, the next ten years will demonstrate their own lack of vision as their highest level skills simply will no longer be able to cut it in an ever growing, increasiingly aware and educated, community.

It's why it's best to get out and about to see what's out there. Don't settle for internet "blow hards," or men who have only "tested" themselves with ukes from their own art.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:50 AM   #77
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Seng-Yew Ong wrote: View Post
On that note, I happen to have access to a training DVD of Endo Seishiro (Atari and Musubi), of which I am extremely fascinated with [ref:- youtube sample clip. I'm wondering if what he is demonstrating is/can be considered 'internal power' or is merely 'stupid jin tricks' or something else?

Cheers.
Watching your posted vid and then watching this vid by Bill Gleason:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOs_Gnigupo

IMO, Gleason is explaining "how-to" better.
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Old 10-27-2009, 11:44 AM   #78
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I was never much interested in teaching and coaching on the internet in the first place. Then this idea was proposed, Josh; to openly share and be all "good golly lets swap information." Due to certain parameters, and certain people- I never trusted that, but talked more openly behind the scene and shared. Then the reality set in. There are some guys playing this game with a devisive and self-serving agenda, Josh. In the end it was the same old Martial Art crap, now wrapped up in a different package. I want nothing from these men. I'm going to support the teachers I commit to and a few other select people that I trust and that just may be it for me. Why? I have grown truly disgusted by some of the people involved in this new "movement." They're not my kind of people.
You know, I think it is unfortunate that there is this division happening when on surface everyone appears to be chasing the same . . er . . beast . . dragon? (nah, that's a different drug), but public discussions end up being about personalities. In general, I think there's a lot of talking past each other and button pushing happening that is usually indicative that basic communication has broken down somewhere.

I think parts of the elements of factionalism are a result of some people seeing IT as a kind of "club" that you do or don't belong to . . rather than understanding (at least it looks this way from my limited view) how much of a frustrating and often solitary pursuit it becomes as you struggle to condition yourself from the inside out and "get it".

Dan, you've mentioned more than once going out to see what people are doing. I agree with this completely, but it also seems like - to get a foot in the door, so to speak, you have to pick a methodology to start from in order to develop a base, or have a basic education in "this stuff". For example, if I push on Person A and can't move him and then push on Person B and can't move him - person A tells me it's because of XYZ, while Person B tells me it's because of ABC . . and they both feel a little different, but that's as much as my limited exposure allows me to discern . . who to believe and who to follow? You get the conundrum?

To your point, it becomes a matter of who will teach you, who can you best learn from, who can reproduce the skills in you. Maybe another addendum to that is who is accessible for questions and followups, who is teaching discrete bodyskills versus bundling it with a martial system (or even showing how the skills express in any martial art) . . I think those are important factors when looking at Internal Power Development Methods, also, and I'm sure there's others, too.

Last edited by Budd : 10-27-2009 at 11:46 AM. Reason: senior moment
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Old 10-27-2009, 11:53 AM   #79
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Watching your posted vid and then watching this vid by Bill Gleason:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOs_Gnigupo

IMO, Gleason is explaining "how-to" better.
After meeting him, I understood why Bill Gleason is so highly respected.

I also like how he's showing Dan's stuff.

Didn't much care for Endo's clip.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:14 PM   #80
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Good post Budd!

I agree. Personalities and egos are in the way. Also agree about the club mentality as well. This needs to stop if we are all going to get along and have anyone to train with at all.

Spent the last two weekends study with two very fine Gentleman and friends, and I have learned alot.

A big part of the process for me has been the friendships and relationships I have built with people that this "IT" training has afforded me.

Ushiro Sensei spent alot of time talking about letting go and love and openening up. about engaging and moving forward....not only physically, but mentally. In fact, I think he really did a good job of stressing this over the physical this weekend.

I learned alot in the past two weekends, and I actually am beginning to believe that there is hope for me and I was able to experience some new things that are staying with me.

As such, I am also beginning to become aware that if I discuss this stuff as a separate element of my training, or idolize it, or become fanatical about it in the pursuit...that it is wrong and will become an obstacle.

As such, I am finding myself less wanting to discuss this stuff or debate who has it, who doesn't, and what you need to do to find it.

All I can do is be myself and share my training experience with others and maybe they will find joy and use in my practice, maybe they won't. I won't hide anything or keep secrets...but plenty of folks that I come in contact are so closed, so closed to reaching out and wanting to take risk and to let go...that I realize that I can't make them or prostelitize them into my way of thinking.

As such, it is really pointless discussing this stuff in this manner as it causes no love, no joy...only discord.

The folks that I have met that are on the path both advance and new are simply wonderful people...they have to be to possess it I am finding out!

I am finding out that they are all generous and eager to share and they will give you as much as you are willing to see or able to see.

So, if someone doesn't want to open up and take a chance to look at things differently, meet with me, doesn't care to share...or wants to hide...that is fine too...I no longer care as I now know that person has nothing to offer me at all.

You can only try and reach out so much and then you have to move on with your training and life...it is no loss to you as they have nothing of real value.

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 10-27-2009 at 12:16 PM. Reason: left something out.

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Old 10-27-2009, 12:19 PM   #81
DH
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Hi Budd
I Hope all is well.
Your assessment about what to do and where to go is spot on, isn't it. I remain open in that regard. I think it best to let people go out and test. I just strongly object when some are "looked up to" and I then read some of the comments, and hear some of the mud being slung about who so and so will recommend and who people should avoid.

I think folks need to just do the research themsevles. It seems to me that MA'ers spend all sorts of money to go feel these big shots in TMA; I say let em. Others may choose to spend time and money exploring the alternates; let them do that as well. People will waste time, and others will get it, while others are ogling over Johnnies really cool waza, some men will get real power and skill that negates Samurai Johnnies really cool waza!

No one is going to really change anyone Else's mind by talking about it are they? The most we are going to do is to generate interest, and that's about it.

To address your point about "How do you know which ones to go to-who all feel powerful but stress ABC or XYZ?" You don't and never will, till later on. and what if part of both methods is right even if it is all each party knows? What someone knows a better way than both? In the end people will pick a teacher or a method for a host of reasons; some of them wise, some of them not so wise. But here's the thing;
Who's being honest with their recommendations
Who really has the level of skill to be offering any kind of recommendations to start with?

I opt out. You guys can fight that fight and leave me out of it. I suggest you listen to other people you trust, and try as many as you can and find out for yourself.
I was...and still am open to sharing. My point is that it never was an honest and open exchange on the net. There was an agenda attached to it by certain people. I "called it" for what it was, and thankfully I am pleased that others have recently gotten that as well all on their own. No big deal, we're all used to that in the TMA; it's SSDD. It's the way it always was and I suspect always will be. We all just have to do the best we can to find what we need.
Good luck in your search Budd
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-27-2009 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:43 PM   #82
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Kusaimen -Stinky Noodles

Takamura sensei used to say this from time to time. It was one of his funny Japanese idioms. I finally asked him to explain the term. In his uniquely humorous manner he laid it out in a story.

So Tobysan, you have a bowl. You fill it with very expensive noodles and the highest quality ingredients. You spare no expense in creating the best bowl of noodles possible. A true masterpiece of noodle making. Then, you crap in the noodles. You know what? It all tastes like crap!

No matter how wonderful or enlightening the information, if the teacher is a jerk, he's a jerk. The information is not worth it because its corrupted. Why? Because there's someone out there with the same or better information, who's also a nice guy. Who's not interested in self-aggrandizement, but into the graciousness and honor that comes with seeing his student's progress. He's not interested publicly demeaning others or arguing about who's best or who knows what. He's just teaching and proudly standing beside his students on their quest.

As leader of koryu I have a unique and complex responsibility beyond that of individual enjoyment, but at the end of the day I still do what I do because I enjoy it. It enriches my life. The day that ceases to be true, I will stop and pass my responsibilities to another out of fear I will become .......kusaimen.

Respectfully,

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:48 PM   #83
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

and that is what I learned the most from you Toby! Your joy and love for what you do shows over everything else.

Now I swim away...very fast!

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Old 10-27-2009, 12:50 PM   #84
DH
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Kevin
While I agree with most of your points, the idea of not obsessing with this type of training is where we differ
a) there is no single "This type of training" that is defined.
b) if it is more or less in the same direction, then "this type of training" is the only thing in the martial arts to be obsessed about.

What did the recent past teach us?
I seem to recall similar statements being made about Grappling against TMA years ago. These statements and arguments can often be called "ego." I know the Gracies were often accused of that.
What happened?
In the end, their "position," and what they said, proved to be true, over and over. By now it is well known how the Grappling V TJMA equation ended up.

We know how the IP/ Aiki V TJMA equation is ending up in person, one be one; TJMA does not stand up very well, if at all. It consistently fails to deliver in the face of well developed IP/ Aiki. So, when does a "point of view" become just plain fact? Some are angered by this, some are delighted to see the real power of the Japanese arts IP/Aiki; finally coming to the light of day. Even if it means most Japanese Shihan simply missed it.
On the whole, the Japanese training methodology has kept a lot of innovation, experimentation, and genius beat down. I think of this as a very good time to be in the martial arts. And probably the best time to be in Aikido since Ueshiba was alive.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-27-2009 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:55 PM   #85
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Thanks, Kevin.

And thanks, Dan, for the thoughtful response. All is well, here - great, even. My son turned one last month and everyone's healthy and happy. And of course I hope all is well with you and yours.

I think that the main thrust of the last few years - getting people interested in "this stuff" - has been successful in that it's now more openly looked at, by those whom have interest, as a discrete skillset, regardless of martial art. There are now avenues for people to pursue to try to get their own foot in the door and getting started in building it up in themselves.

I get the frustration with "authority" being placed in some viewpoints versus others - but I'm hoping that with time, if the brewing factions can be prevented from getting too toxic, that "authority" continues to be based on people getting out and more and more people being "vetted" by as objective a set of criteria as possible. At this point, it seems few enough people have been "vetted" and the objective criteria (and I really am not talking about "feats", because they ought to be a "result" of good training, methinks, rather than the end goal as I've witnessed the case to be at times) is still being somewhat defined . .

So taking the example from my first post that you added to . . If I get experienced enough to "feel" differences then maybe I can say from a static push that Person A feels like pushing a wall, Person B feels like I'm pushing myself away, Person C seems to make any force I exert disappear, Person D can exhibit any and all of the three previous persons' characterisitcs on demand . . I think that will be another step forward, even if it's not happening publicly, but behind the scenes while people all chase the skills and train their butts off, compare notes, etc.

And even if you do opt out publicly from things, I think there's plenty of debt owed to your participation and putting discussions of IS on the frontburner (in addition to following up to meet people, etc.) that it's not going to be overlooked even as, hopefully, we all collectively move forward.

Best Regards,
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:19 PM   #86
DH
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Great point, Toby. It is also complex.
When is the crap that stunk up the place- the result of a lot of bad teaching; and the fine ingredients by and large are best found outside the bowl!

I agree whole heartedly about the teacher being a jerk; it's why I find comments like this so atrocious

Quote:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I make it easy. I don't recommend anyone. I tell people to go out and feel and make their own choices. Then they own their choices.
Why? It's the only way I currently know to be fair and open about it
Quote:
Mike wrote:
I'm tell 'em the same thing. And I always suggest that it's very important to find a guy they like and who seems like a nice guy, because that's how so much progress was made over the last 30 or so years. People I like and I think are serious, I give the best advice I can.
FWIW
Mike Sigman
It's as if being nice is a sin. Of course "nice" is no qualification, but rarely have I heard it so consistently denigrated as a negative!

I'm not sure sure I agree about competition, testing and talking plainly though. if someone is looking for some thing that is rare and hard to find, there is a measure of plain talk that helps and it sometimes isn't exaclty equally complimentary of everyones efforts. I think some teachers efforts (not them as a person) are less than stellar and will not hold up to scrutiny in terms of Ip/Aiki. Others with skills are horrible people and or horrible teachers; and sometimes (as you recently noted to me privately)...they are both.
IOW, Mike is not all wrong in his sarcastic wit.
When is talking fact; talking smack?
When is not speaking plainly...talking smack to one searching?

There is a Japanese TMA teacher making the rounds who is crude, and rude to his students (all in the name of bujutsu); abusive at the slightest hint of challenge of his skills, and has proved rather conclusively that he sucks at teaching. On top of all of that, his skills are not exactly what some of the "IT" crowd would ever consider high level.
So...when does recommending him in public- while telling the truth behind closed doors- do anyone any good?
As I said, great point...but in truth it is a little more complex than a simple metaphor.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-27-2009 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:29 PM   #87
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Dan,

There is alot we agree on...I think most of it is lost in the communication process in digits here.

"This type of training".....

I agree with you on this and my sarcasm in my post simply does not come through in the beginning of it when I mention it.

I will see if I can explain it a little bit better. For me, as I am learning more, it is becoming less and less objectified as a separate and distinct part of training and more and more of my focus and what I am doing. I simply don't have enough skill or context to do it very well.

So I see it more as a conversion process from external focus to internal focus as I learn more and more..so yeah...I agree.

Although most of us begin from the paradigm that says that it is "this kinda training" since it is new and different than what we do.

A good example is how I viewed the distinction between BJJ and Aikido. Today I give no thought what-so-ever about that distinction...it is the same for me...training context is a little different...but no conscious thought at all.

So as I am exposed to the best guys I can find in TMA, Koryu, BJJ or what not....I find out that there are alot of things I thought were correct ways of training...only to discover that what I was doing was not good and incorrect...and now I do things that are correct.

That simple.

So yes, I do agree with what you are saying here I think which is there are efficient ways of doing things, inefficent/ineffective ways of doing them...and middle of the road ways of doing them too.

So, as you learn more efficient ways and they take over what you do in waza/application...your training becomes "more correct or efficient".

Some choose to look at these ways as being "the IT way". Which is really the point I was making...having a big "ah hah" moment over the past couple of weeks.

This really became very apparent to me with Ushiro this weekend watching him doing karate. The same karate I did for many years...although he did it in a way that was greatly different than anything I had ever experienced. Yes, Karate!

Aikido folks might look at him and say..."hey that is aikido...with a little karate flair added!".

Which kinda leads into your UFC/Gracie/TMA example..which is a whole nuther subject, as there was alot going on there as well politically as well.....but that is best left for a discussion over beers as having that discussion in the open here would cause the whole point of the conversation to get mudded and lost.

"We know how the IP/ Aiki V TJMA equation is ending up in person, one be one; TJMA does not stand up very well, if at all. It consistently fails to deliver in the face of well developed IP/ Aiki.
"

Well Dissonance is a bitch isn't it.

However, you have to be careful not to swing hard back the other way and throw the baby out with the bath water.

I am seeing alot of folks feeling like they have gotten ripped off by their past training, sold a bill of goods by their organization, all their training was wasted and then getting on the band wagon in some very extreme ways.

This is a concern of mine and it is not healthy.

I have seen this in other areas as well. Such as military Chaplains abandoning their religions outright after experiencing the horrors of war down range and then feeling empty cause their seminary training did not equip them personally and spiritually to deal with such situations.

Do you really need to abandon your whole religion because of this, or do you need to figure out what is really going on in the situation and fix what is broke?

I have been through this a few times myself and it did me no good to jump to extremes.

I spent this past weekend talking to alot of aikido folks at the seminar...these are the ones that are not afraid to step outside of their comfort zones and try new things...and they are not abandoning their art. We talked alot what is right and what is wrong with budo in general and forming visions for changes on an interpersonal level and in their dojos. Those conversations though I think are ones that need to happen in private as they will cause more harm than good in public. I think alot of talk about this is public is harmful as it hurts egos, feelings, and generally causes folks to "move away" from change rather than embrace it.

I think though that you would find that we actually agree on most of this stuff Dan, ironically, and that having this conversation face to face would be very enjoyable and fun!

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Old 10-27-2009, 01:29 PM   #88
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Kusaimen -Stinky Noodles

Takamura sensei used to say this from time to time. It was one of his funny Japanese idioms. I finally asked him to explain the term. In his uniquely humorous manner he laid it out in a story.

So Tobysan, you have a bowl. You fill it with very expensive noodles and the highest quality ingredients. You spare no expense in creating the best bowl of noodles possible. A true masterpiece of noodle making. Then, you crap in the noodles. You know what? It all tastes like crap!

No matter how wonderful or enlightening the information, if the teacher is a jerk, he's a jerk. The information is not worth it because its corrupted. Why? Because there's someone out there with the same or better information, who's also a nice guy. Who's not interested in self-aggrandizement, but into the graciousness and honor that comes with seeing his student's progress. He's not interested publicly demeaning others or arguing about who's best or who knows what. He's just teaching and proudly standing beside his students on their quest.

As leader of koryu I have a unique and complex responsibility beyond that of individual enjoyment, but at the end of the day I still do what I do because I enjoy it. It enriches my life. The day that ceases to be true, I will stop and pass my responsibilities to another out of fear I will become .......kusaimen.

Respectfully,

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Toby,
You crack me up... never fails.
- George

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Old 10-27-2009, 01:39 PM   #89
Budd
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

I think it's also worth noting in this "Non-Aikido Martial Tradition" forum that there's different levels and layers of teacher/student relationship. Sometime the teacher demands that the student submit themselves wholly to what the teacher is doing and requires that the student blindly follow. One could argue that is something of a traditional approach. There's also perhaps a more modern approach that some martial studies (and IS as a discrete skillset) are more based on examining them as tradecraft (which can require an apprenticeship similar to the above scenario - or a more casual, let's get together and talk shop, even when one amongst the group is a more senior practitioner doing most of the sharing). Then there's sports-based athlete/coach relationships . . then there's every hybrid and in-between version you can imagine.

In either case, I suspect, you would want to be sure that someone in whom you've placed your trust and well-being, is going to treat that appropriately and with regard. Question is - what are your standards for assessing if someone is going to appropriately handle the trust you give them when you set out to learn something they have to teach?

Personally, I am always wary when I first meet someone and I play ball with what they're doing, trying my best not to let what I think or think I know get in the way of what they want to show me. But I am also guarded and if I decide that they're going to try to hurt me intentionally, it's game on and I respond accordingly. Deducing whether someone is a stinky noodle, however, I don't claim to be able to determine easily, because I've had perfectly charming teachers demonstrate seemingly sociopathic tendencies in varying degrees . . so it gets to be a crap shoot, either way.

Now, factor in trying to determine the quality of goods they have for sale (to use a crude term) - and you've got additional layers of complexity. Whether it's a koryu with a guarded gate or an MMA gym where all you have to do is show up - the culture and content you're only going to get exposure to by stepping through the entryway and getting stinky (to use another crude term)

YMMV.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:45 PM   #90
DH
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
And thanks, Dan, for the thoughtful response. All is well, here - great, even. My son turned one last month and everyone's healthy and happy.
Good times ahead for you eh?
Quote:
I get the frustration with "authority" being placed in some viewpoints versus others - but I'm hoping that with time, if the brewing factions can be prevented from getting too toxic, that "authority" continues to be based on people getting out and more and more people being "vetted" by as objective a set of criteria as possible. At this point, it seems few enough people have been "vetted" and the objective criteria (and I really am not talking about "feats", because they ought to be a "result" of good training, methinks, rather than the end goal as I've witnessed the case to be at times) is still being somewhat defined . .
Maybe I didn't state my points well.
1. I don't think anyone of the "experts" I have read, seen on film, or met (on the Japanese side of things) *qualifies* as an authority on IP/ aiki. They're simply not good enough. So reading "recommendations" about others from any of the "amateurs" being currently "looked up to" is simply hilarious to me. I include myself here, and its why I refuse to make suggestions other than to get out and feel and test everyone.
2. Of course each guy is going to vett certain people according to his own past experience and after feeling "so and so." Of course!! It's what we have always done, it's all we can do. But it doesn't make them an authority, either. I think we should just let it be what it is; a vetting process and...THE HONEST SEARCH AND SHARING, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN.

That way no one is constantly trying to one-up someone else, no one is getting information than lying about the source; it's just straight talk and straight training.

Quote:
And even if you do opt out publicly from things, I think there's plenty of debt owed to your participation and putting discussions of IS on the frontburner (in addition to following up to meet people, etc.) that it's not going to be overlooked even as, hopefully, we all collectively move forward.

Best Regards,
Budd
I meant opting out on giving instructions on the net. I am supporting teachers on a weekly basis, and next month I am teaching another national "Teachers only" seminar for a Karate style. I am not opposed to helping, but in person it's just more honest and straight, and teachers have the best chance of getting the information out there with approved training time in their dojo's.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-27-2009 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:48 PM   #91
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Watching your posted vid and then watching this vid by Bill Gleason:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOs_Gnigupo

IMO, Gleason is explaining "how-to" better.
I'll hazard the expense of pixels. You can see that -- but you can't see the chopstick ?

Motion and stress are equivalent and interchangeable. By EITHER dropping weight (in visible motion as he does) OR setting a line of equivalent stress in the same orientation (i.e, -- in juuji -- right angles), the effect is the same -- if you let the torsional shear take over to cause a slight gyration in the contact angle. The attacker's support (in the video) tends to shear away behind him (like the chopstick) -- his push is mainly cancelled by adverse moment at his base -- not leverage at his contact. It's the same thing -- just looser. Only a shear can do this.

Watching Shioda's tippy-toe randori -- is like watching some elfin rhinoceros doing demolition ballet, and often shearing the base toward instead of away. Shioda often tends to like going up (releasing the compression spiral and extending), instead of down (releasing the tensile spiral and retracting or dropping). But it's all still the same action. Action in one spiral is potential in the other. Both stresses are always available if you start in shear, and initial up or down orientation of action is equally available if you start in tenchi.

Both the tensile spiral line or the compression spiral line can draw the base in any direction, depending on only a slight imparted gyrational moment -- supplied by the shear torsion stress itself. As Endo shows (and as push-hands does), these stress-and-motion lines easily alternate continuously and seamlessly -- in-yo ho and if not compensated by the same mechanism, cause waves of progressive joint buckling -- up to and including the juncture at the base of support.

Please tell me you guys really can see all this ?

Last edited by Erick Mead : 10-27-2009 at 01:54 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:12 PM   #92
Budd
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Good times ahead for you eh?
Yeah, good enough that insanity may mean going for two!! (someone can slap me at any time, really)

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Maybe I didn't state my points well.
1. I don't think anyone of the "experts" I have read, seen on film, or met (on the Japanese side of things) *qualifies* as an authority on IP/ aiki. They're simply not good enough. So reading "recommendations" about others from any of the "amateurs" being currently "looked up to" is simply hilarious to me. I include myself here, and its why I refuse to make suggestions other than to get out and feel and test everyone.
2. Of course each guy is going to vett certain people according to his own past experience and after feeling "so and so." Of course!! It's what we have always done, it's all we can do. But it doesn't make them an authority, either. I think we should just let it be what it is; a vetting process and...THE HONEST SEARCH AND SHARING, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN.
Absolutely, I think I was onboard with what you were saying before, but I definitely cannot argue with what's written above. And it's very telling that some folks that have been "vetted" here on Aikiweb point farther up the pyramid to others as examples of "big dogs" to get their hands on. I think the kind of exposure you get access to is going to come down to who you're connected with, how you get introduced to someone, how you filter what they show you, how you move forward with progressing and doing the work, then how you represent yourself publicly and in person - just like it's always likely been to some degree or another.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That way no one is constantly trying to one-up someone else, no one is getting information than lying about the source; it's just straight talk and straight training.
Defo works for me *nods*.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I meant opting out on giving instructions on the net. I am supporting teachers on a weekly basis, and next month I am teaching another national "Teachers only" seminar for a Karate style. I am not opposed to helping, but in person it's just more honest and straight.
Cheers
Dan
Hell yes in person is more honest and straight. I circle back to a point I've made repeatedly over the last couple of years. The best thing about the internet with regards to martial arts forums has been to spread more information to give pointers about who and what kinds of people you want to try to hook up with in person. I still believe that. But my comment about there being a debt to you - even for folks that haven't met you but were inspired to go figure things out for themselves . . still stands for sure.
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:24 PM   #93
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Budd wrote:

Quote:
get the frustration with "authority" being placed in some viewpoints versus others - but I'm hoping that with time, if the brewing factions can be prevented from getting too toxic, that "authority" continues to be based on people getting out and more and more people being "vetted" by as objective a set of criteria as possible. At this point, it seems few enough people have been "vetted" and the objective criteria (and I really am not talking about "feats", because they ought to be a "result" of good training, methinks, rather than the end goal as I've witnessed the case to be at times) is still being somewhat defined
Budd, what was encouraging at the Ushiro seminar was the folks that were there from Kokyushin, Aikido, Shindo Ryu, BJJ and other arts is that there are lots of folks that are committted to laying down their differences and we have some very high level folks in all these communities that are able to get together and train.

Who'd ever thunk that aikido folks and kokyushin could get together in the same room and have a productive weekend? I've done it before years ago and it was a disaster!

Now you have these guys that can come together and form a community? it is awesome! think about it.

Vetting? none of us talked about vetting we simply trained together and tried to help each other learn. We talked about "hey you should really get with this guy...he is awesome...or have you spent time with so and so...he is fun and a great guy. yadayada....it was all in the joy of celebrating the sharing...not the dacronian vetting process.

I don't understand the whole vetting process really.....if anything it should be a friendly...hey you should really go train with this guy, I think you'd learn some things from him.

Some how this has gotten way out of hand.

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Old 10-27-2009, 02:28 PM   #94
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Kevin, what's your problem with Dacron? It's a hell of a fiber.
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:31 PM   #95
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Budd, we need to do another get together at your dojo sometime, I'd really llike to meet up with you, Ron T and the rest of the guys in this area and do some training!

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Old 10-27-2009, 02:32 PM   #96
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Josh, damn what's the issue?...I guess you just don't "get it" ...sigh!

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Old 10-27-2009, 02:38 PM   #97
Budd
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Well, Kevin, my own "take" is that it's great to get together in the spirit of budo fellowship and play and see what happens (been doing that for years, though on a little bit of a sabbattical from that while I focus on some things). But on the flip side, to me, the vetting process is generally no more than "hey you should check out this guy" and that's that.

Caveat, though . . if someone says to me, "Hey, you should go check out the internal skills of XYZ" and they are primarily a judo player whom I've not felt much internal skill development from when I've had hands on them . . while I won't dismiss their input, I may ask more follow-up questions, regarding, "What did you work on? What were the explicit takeaways you got from them? How did they feel compared to (insert someone we both know)?" Who'm I kidding, I'm going to ask those questions anyways

But do you see what I mean? It's just one part of the information gathering process and in no way means that someone is on or off my radar because of one comment . . but certain opinions by certain people are going to carry weight. The more informed the opinion (based on criteria we all apply individually or collectively), the more weight, etc.

And in the area of Internal Strength training, as public information is slowly being more revealed, there also needs to be something of an assessment given to it, because it wasnt' that long ago (heck, it's still happening here on Aikiweb, but thankfully in smaller doses) that everyone was weighing in with . . "I believe ki is a big ball of gas that I can use in my aikido", or "I will get ki skills if I just do suburi and tenkan" or "ki strength is best reflected by being really stubborn". . it's not like that still doesn't happen . .but there's now beginning to be a more publicly acknowledged (but still gross) framework and vocabulary around 'this stuff' where people can speak more directly to it and about it, rather than around it or past each other . . presuming the participants want to.

EDIT: Absolutely, Kevin, we should hook up sometime. My rolling is really rusty so I need to get schooled!
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:41 PM   #98
gregstec
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Then, you crap in the noodles. You know what? It all tastes like crap!
Just when I was thinking of having noodles for dinner....

Nice analogy with some very good points

Greg Steckel
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Old 10-27-2009, 03:12 PM   #99
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Yea I see what you mean Budd. I also see the break down and your analysis is done in a positive manner meant to understand, not to compare 'haves and have nots". There is a difference.

That said, I my friends are asking me to tell them how various people feel compared to others...and I really don't know how to answer that question anymore. Not that anyone is asking the wrong question...it is just simply not something I can answer in a way that is constructive.

It could be my own lack of ability to distill and summarize, but I really think it is getting harder to do as I am moving more out of a comparitive phase of "wow that was cool to feel", to a stage of "he showed me some things...can I do them" or "what take aways did I get that I feel I am going to be able to replicate".

I am kinda over the "wow that was fun to play with"....as it is easy I think to go to a 3 ring circus and be entertained....what did you take away from the seminar to work on and what feedback process do you have to measure and adjust on.

So, that is a good point, we could all get together and have a good time, but yea...what is the objective of the meeting and what are the take aways going to be? A very good point indeed, otherwise we just of a "in club" meeting of the "he man women haters society" and we all go home feeling cool!

That is a very good point indeed!

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Old 10-27-2009, 04:38 PM   #100
DH
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Hi Kevin
I don't think the vetting preciess has been a problem at all. Which is why I encourage it so much. In fact I am big fan of people meeting testing, feeling, sparring, or fighting as many people as they can. I think it's the best thing right now to check, "IT" as a stand alone skill, or those who can actually use for real in something other than kata or a few tests. Go for it.
In particular I would STRONGLY suggest people keep putting hands on every master class teacher they can, then meeting the few guys outside of TMA talking aobut IP/ Aiki and how to effectively train it, and compare methods.
Not everyone is looking for the same thing are they? Therefore it stands to reason that not all will be happy with the same methods. That seems friendly, open and honest to me. The hard part is going to be deciding on something long enough to get all it can do for you, while checking other things out and or when do you see something else you want to train to incorporate into your internals. Some guys are just not going to be able to help you get to where you are trying to go, where others could.
Opinions of methods and approaches are just going to change over time, as people get more conversent in their own skills. IOW, some people who are impressed with so and so right now, are going to change their mind. I guarantee it.
There are no hard feelings that I can see.

Proper credit for information is another issue, but lets put that aside.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Dan,
There is alot we agree on...I think most of it is lost in the communication process in digits here.

"This type of training".....
I agree with you on this and my sarcasm in my post simply does not come through in the beginning of it when I mention it.

I will see if I can explain it a little bit better. For me, as I am learning more, it is becoming less and less objectified as a separate and distinct part of training and more and more of my focus and what I am doing. I simply don't have enough skill or context to do it very well.

So I see it more as a conversion process from external focus to internal focus as I learn more and more..so yeah...I agree.

Although most of us begin from the paradigm that says that it is "this kinda training" since it is new and different than what we do.

A good example is how I viewed the distinction between BJJ and Aikido. Today I give no thought what-so-ever about that distinction...it is the same for me...training context is a little different...but no conscious thought at all.
So as I am exposed to the best guys I can find in TMA, Koryu, BJJ or what not....I find out that there are alot of things I thought were correct ways of training...only to discover that what I was doing was not good and incorrect...and now I do things that are correct.
That simple.
Well I can agree on the one hand but then not on others. I can only say that there is a lot of sophisticated jujutsu and weapons work that is soft but is not internal. And it is....very impressive.
And that statement is not a way to make friends and influence people is it?. Is it better to say it straight, find better PC ways to say it? Or just let it go and not say it at all?

Quote:
So yes, I do agree with what you are saying here I think which is there are efficient ways of doing things, inefficent/ineffective ways of doing them...and middle of the road ways of doing them too.
So, as you learn more efficient ways and they take over what you do in waza/application...your training becomes "more correct or efficient".
Some choose to look at these ways as being "the IT way". Which is really the point I was making...having a big "ah hah" moment over the past couple of weeks.
Efficiency is not really an issue here. There are many ways to do external arts more *efficiently* than others...far more efficiently in fact; and none of that is internal either, It's just better jujutsu, better weapons work, but in the end thats all it really is. More efficient movement. .

Quote:
his really became very apparent to me with Ushiro this weekend watching him doing karate. The same karate I did for many years...although he did it in a way that was greatly different than anything I had ever experienced. Yes, Karate!

Aikido folks might look at him and say..."hey that is aikido...with a little karate flair added!".
I am not overly impressed with Ushiro's movement, neither are some others in the current IT crowd.
IMO, he, like a few others have developed a certain part of these skills. No, I am not talking about their fighting skills, or waza, I am talking about IP/Aiki.
FWIW, I would be counted among those stating it is not aikido, nor will it necessarily produce better aikido. there are other methods more in keeping with aikido is.

Quote:
Quote:
Dan wrote:
"We know how the IP/ Aiki V TJMA equation is ending up in person, one be one; TJMA does not stand up very well, if at all. It consistently fails to deliver in the face of well developed IP/ Aiki."
Well Dissonance is a bitch isn't it.

However, you have to be careful not to swing hard back the other way and throw the baby out with the bath water.

I am seeing alot of folks feeling like they have gotten ripped off by their past training, sold a bill of goods by their organization, all their training was wasted and then getting on the band wagon in some very extreme ways.This is a concern of mine and it is not healthy.I have seen this in other areas as well. Such as military Chaplains abandoning their religions outright after experiencing the horrors of war down range and then feeling empty cause their seminary training did not equip them personally and spiritually to deal with such situations.

Do you really need to abandon your whole religion because of this, or do you need to figure out what is really going on in the situation and fix what is broke?
Sigh...
Well, there is a lot to be said for summations. I think some people were ripped off. I've seen it happen. Others were not taught because some Japanese teachers simply are poor teachers. SOme Japanese teachers were not taught themselves. the lack of IP/Aiki skills in the arts speaks for itself.
I think the truth is always best. It usually let's the best in the arts rise to the fore, and the ones who should sink to the bottom usually do. I am virtually surounded on a weekly basis by spin, obfuscating and PC correctiveness in public presentations. In Budo, all that does is support organizations that produce more of the same.

I leave you with this. If I, or Mike, or Ark had remained...in... any of those "organizations"...we wouldn't be having this discussion, and you woudn't even know what you were missing.

Note, I don't suggest people abandon aikido do I? Is that what you think? I am actively teaching in Aikido dojos weekly as well as teaching MMA. I just prefer IP/Aiki in MMA.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-27-2009 at 04:52 PM.
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