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Old 10-25-2009, 01:05 PM   #26
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I am not fat or obese.
Sure? Can you prove it?
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Old 10-25-2009, 02:20 PM   #27
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Obesity

http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/hum...aspx?GT1=38001
here's an interesting bit of news relating to this thread.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-25-2009, 02:33 PM   #28
Rob Watson
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Re: Obesity

So, I'm fat. Fat and fit are not mutually exclusive states.

No reasonable amount of exercise can compete with simply eating a bit less for dramatic weight loss (fat loss). All it takes is a very modest amount of self control and discipline-MAers supposedly have this in spades, no?

PS Thanks very much I'm down 40 lbs from my max of 270 lbs - at this rate I'll soon be gone completely.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-25-2009, 03:04 PM   #29
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
So, I'm fat. Fat and fit are not mutually exclusive states.

No reasonable amount of exercise can compete with simply eating a bit less for dramatic weight loss (fat loss). All it takes is a very modest amount of self control and discipline-MAers supposedly have this in spades, no?

PS Thanks very much I'm down 40 lbs from my max of 270 lbs - at this rate I'll soon be gone completely.
Congrats! The handful of experts I've spoken to on this topic say basically the same thing you're expressing: intake vs. output. Eat moderately, with plenty of fiber and water (and a relatively low sugar intake) and be active. Genetics plays a big factor in how well this basic formula works, but generally speaking this seems to be the way things work.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-25-2009, 03:23 PM   #30
Walter Martindale
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Re: Obesity

Well. Hmm. Back in the 70s when in undergrad PE, we were taught that every extra pound (454 g) of fat required about another mile of blood vessels. Don't know if it's true but we didn't question our masters - the professors - in those days.

If it is true, I now carry about 30 extra miles (about 51 km) of extra blood vessels around in my body, relative to my competition weight when I was in judo and then in rowing. (when I was competing, my estimated body fat with two different lab-based methods was about 7%, when it was considered "normal" and "healthy" to be about 12% for a male. now it's higher than 12% - those scales that do the estimates put me in the >20% range)...

The ticker has to service this extra blood flow even though the body is very efficient at shunting blood to active tissues and away from inactive tissues. During exercise, blood flow to the kidneys doesn't change very much but it is a much smaller portion of the total cardiac output. Blood flow to the gut goes way down, and blood flow to the muscles goes way, way up. In a 6'4" 200 lb heavyweight male rower with a ticker developed through thousands of kilometres of aerobic training over several years, the cardiac output can be, in rare cases, as much as 200 litres of blood per minute (FISA Level 1 coach education manuals). With a person that size, the total blood volume is still only as much as 8 litres, so that blood is going around the body (lungs, heart, body, heart, etc) a lot of times in a great big hurry each minute. If you want to confirm any of these numbers, Fritz Hagerman has a LOT of published work on US college and elite rowers' physiological data - remember, I did say that someone with a Q of 200 L would be rare.)

The more excess blubber we (I) carry, the less of my total blood volume I have available for the muscles, the more my work rate goes down because I'm busy supplying blood to inactive tissues instead of active tissues. AND, the harder I have to work to carry the extra weight around.

So - to the end of being better at Aikido (as well as being healthier) I'm working to get rid of some adipose tissue, through eating less but better food and exercising more. I'm down about 4 kg (about 9 lb) over the last couple of months, and the trousers are starting to get loose. The size 5 obi with the dojo name on one end and my name on the other is almost long enough now, to get tied with all of the embroidery visible. Quite a change from competition days when a size 4 obi would go round enough to have more than a foot (30 cm) of extra belt hanging down past the knot... Quite a change, too, from when I was thinking I'd have to get a size 6...

About the obesity epidemic... I was watching a TV documentary about Canada's WW2 in colour film. The biggest thing I noticed was that there were very few cars, people walking everywhere, and very few fat folks - they were all skinny. The obesity epidemic is a complex one, but with suburbia requiring that people drive to the shop, school, work, and with the increased availability of inexpensive "tasty" fatty food, the body's propensity to store what it doesn't need, and the amazing increase in consumption of sugary bottled drinks (That person drinks HOW much cola every day?) it's not really surprising that "western" societies are getting bigger.

The use of the BMI, however, is a vast generalisation, and ignores the composition of the person's weight. While I'm a lot heavier than the average 179 cm male, I'm also carrying a fair amount of muscle under the fat I'm trying to lose, and the BMI only shows a number in the low 30s.

Lighten up folks - both physically and otherwise - It's OK to be self critical but let's not attack others personally - argument over "what" is right is OK, but "what" is right is far more important than "who" is right...

Cheers,
Walter
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Old 10-26-2009, 09:13 AM   #31
jss
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
This whole thread came about last month when I had a discussion with another martial artist who said fat/obese people take Aikido.
So what? If that was an attempt at criticizing Aikido, it wasn't a very intelligent one.

Quote:
Or have to reject a fatter student because of insurance, like it was pointed out with having a hip replacement.
Have you considered the fact that the chances of a hip replacement surgery being successful become smaller and smaller the fatter the patient is? Fat makes surgery more complicated and hip replacements can only support a limited amount of weight.

Quote:
Fat should not be a bad word. We all are fat unless we have 0 body fat.
You're not helping your argument by playing silly word games.
Being fat is bad for you, there's enough medical research to support this. And sure, there's also a fashion ideal (unhealthily skinny and thoroughly photoshopped), ignore that nonsense. There's also a celebrity ideal (slender women and six-pack men), but as with most ideals most people will never live up to them. I'm not as smart as Einstein, as fast as Usain Bolt or as handsome as Brad Pitt, either. Big deal.

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
It's not just a matter of will power, either; statistically, diets don't work in the long run. The only thing that has been proven to get the weight off of very overweight people, and keep it off, is bariatric surgery. Not that there aren't exceptions (though even the exceptions tend to relapse after a couple of years), but statistically it takes surgery to keep weight off of someone with a tendency towards overweight.
Those surgeries aren't that successful in the long run either. They force people to eat less, but besides that, the eating and moving habits of the people who have them, stay the same. More long-term studies are needed to determine the success of the surgery.
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Old 10-26-2009, 11:36 AM   #32
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Re: Obesity

Joep, I got the impression Buck was trying to include more senstivity toward the obese, not to criticize Aikido...maybe I missed something?
Quote:
Buck wrote:
The discrimination is growing against fat people.

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Old 10-26-2009, 11:52 AM   #33
Hogan
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
...Again with the airlines and insurance companies. If you want to use this in support of the slippery-slope argument that you're clearly trying to make, you need to produce evidence that such discrimination on the part of airlines and insurance companies actually exists. ....
Mary, I am not Philip, but allow me:

Airline policy/bias:
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2...-seats-april15

http://thebsreport.wordpress.com/200...n-from-flying/

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Southw...at.-a087549605

Insurance policy/bias:
http://bluewavecanada.blogspot.com/2...s-against.html

http://www.news24.com/Content/World/...s_charged_more

http://cbs3.com/health/ambulance.obe...2.1264845.html

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/top...ry/988655.html

http://www2.wspa.com/spa/news/consum...s_in_nc/27809/

These are just a few examples. Is this what you are asking??
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:44 PM   #34
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Re: Obesity

Obesity is a serious health risk that affects our ability to train aikido. This is a sensitive subject, but also an elephant in the room (no pun intended). Morbid obesity is a dangerous problem.

The BMI is a reference tool for Americans to gauge and control their weight. Weight control is a problem in the US and we have a number of other references that support the argument that weight control is a health risk for Americans.

If you have every had a conversation with a loved one about their weight, you can appreciate the ache of embarrassment; if you have ever lost a loved one because of weight-related illness, you can see beyond the ache of embarassment and have the compassion of tough-love to encourage weight control.

Specifically, aikido is a martial art in which students can seriously participate and be overweight. I do not think we [collectively] are as shallow as to have an image problem in aikido, but I think the problem in aikido is related to weight comes in the intensity to train, the length of training, and the impact on our bodies. Weight becomes an issue when we sacrifice these elements in our training.

One of the good things about aikido is that we can train through a variety of physical conditions. We can be old, heavy, damaged, disabled, or any number of physical limitations and still train aikido. The question is, do we strive to better condition our bodies to improve our aikido? I believe as part of our training, aikido should improve our body condition. To some extent, that is an advantage of aikido because it attracts students who otherwise do not have access to martial arts training.
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Old 10-26-2009, 01:56 PM   #35
DonMagee
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Re: Obesity

I personally think airlines should charge a flat rate for the seat, then X rate per pound on top of that. More weight = more fuel. It makes sense.

With that said http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91045


- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-26-2009, 02:38 PM   #36
Aikibu
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Re: Obesity

Well since it's being inferred there is more to being fat than just "willpower"... The Fast Food Industry alone spends Billions getting folks to eat it's garbage...and that is just one of a thousand examples...Our entire culture around food needs to change including how we grow it, harvest it, transport it, market it and finally eat it...We're all just reflections of that on most levels...We are truly a "Fast Food Nation."

Another example I love is Sushi (Which is the reason I do not eat fish anymore) Sushi was basically one of many different and distinct dishes any culture might have...Now it's very popular and it's served all over the world,,,The result? The fish stocks the Sushi market relies on for it's product have basically collapsed due to over demand. Within the last 30 years most major game fish populations have declined to less than 10% of their baseline. This puts huge pressure on "sub-standard" fish species to fill in the gaps and now they're in major decline too..

Anyway back to the subject Like here already the complaint about most Aikidoka are fat and out of shape is just another slander meme

It might not matter soon anyway If things keep going the way they are we might have to learn how to eat like our grandparents did during the Depression Nothing but staples... and the average weight of most Americans will come down because food may once again be about hunger and sustenance; and not emotional satisfaction and culture...

But hey the Fast Food Conglomerates have anticipated this trend which is the reason "dollar menus" are so popular.

Still need the sugar fat buzz to your brain? heh heh heh It will only cost you a buck.

William Hazen
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Old 10-26-2009, 03:05 PM   #37
Rob Watson
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Well. Hmm. Back in the 70s when in undergrad PE, we were taught that every extra pound (454 g) of fat required about another mile of blood vessels. Don't know if it's true but we didn't question our masters - the professors - in those days.
I'm no expert but this smacks of BS in the extreme.

BMI is simple because it just uses a ruler and a scale which most folks have in their house already. Percent body fat is a much better measure of fat but still is not the best nor an easy measurement - it can still be done at home but is only an estimate.

The real killer is fat on and around the organs as opposed to fat below the skin. Beer belly is not so bad but a few pounds of fat around the kidneys liver and heart will do one dirty.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-26-2009, 03:51 PM   #38
Rob Watson
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Genetics plays a big factor in how well this basic formula works, but generally speaking this seems to be the way things work.
Not really. Genetics does play a role in the relative amounts of bone, muscle ,etc (some folks do have bigger bones) and that is why BMI, and % body fat from density measures are estimates usually +/- 10% accuracy. To get real accurate numbers (+/-1%) fancy methods (like DEXA dual energy x-ray absorptiometry) to directly measure the density of the various tissues are needed.

Genetics can also play a role in the efficiency of the metabolism. Big factor? I actually don't know a study that shows the typical variation in metabolic rates for various populations but I doubt it is very much (15% would be a bunch - but I could be wrong). I have seen studies that show 6% variation in oxygen intake (a strong indicator of metabolic rates) due to the season (winter versus summer).

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-26-2009, 03:58 PM   #39
Walter Martindale
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I'm no expert but this smacks of BS in the extreme.

BMI is simple because it just uses a ruler and a scale which most folks have in their house already. Percent body fat is a much better measure of fat but still is not the best nor an easy measurement - it can still be done at home but is only an estimate.

The real killer is fat on and around the organs as opposed to fat below the skin. Beer belly is not so bad but a few pounds of fat around the kidneys liver and heart will do one dirty.
Sorry mate. Every single muscle fibre in your body is in direct contact with between 1 and 5 or more capillaries, depending in part on the training status of the muscle in question - it's a local adaptation.. Muscle fibres are something around the diameter of a hair. If you don't believe me look it up in Grant's Atlas of Human Anatomy or some similar reference. A "pound" of fat is about the size of a block of butter of the same weight. Imagine that pound of fat permeated every 1/4 millimetre or so with a capillary (blood vessel small enough for red cells to go through in single file only - invisible to the naked eye) - in all directions, so that each fat cell is in direct contact with at least one blood vessel. Individual cells are REALLY small (despite fat cells being able to grow fairly large, it's still a really small version of fairly large), so we're talking about a lot of blood vessels - no blood flow to the fat cell, no access by oxygen, no waste removal, no hormone transport, no free fatty acid activation when you get into "aerobic" mode in a long training session. Each cell needs to be pretty close to a blood supply or it dies.
It ain't BS - it's biology.

We're all slightly different from each other but in general, we store fat everywhere in proportion. If we're programmed by Mum and Dad to have a lot of core fat, then we'll have a lot of fat inside or "organ fat". If we're programmed to store a lot subcutaneously, we'll have a lot of fat under the skin. Thing is, it's all stored everywhere, so if you're storing it "inside" you'll be storing it "outside" also - outside under the skin, the proportions will be dictated by your choice of parents. There will also be "marbling" - just like those male cattle.

The BMI sometimes can tell an athlete that he or she is obese - a full length mirror can be at least as useful, (hmm, yep, gut's sticking out and I can't see the fibres in my pecs ripple any more, that sure snuck up on me). I can't remember what scaling method was used, but once upon a time when I was competing in the 80 kg class in judo, and sucked down to make weight, I got measured (height, weight, etc., for comparison with an actuarial table) and was told that my 176 lb fighting trim was overweight, and I should only weigh about 150 lb for my height. Didn't phase the idiot that I had almost no skinfold thickness (oh for those bygone days), could bench over 250 lb, do pullups with 80 lb tied to me, climb three flights of stairs with the 90 kg sempai piggybacked - I was obese and had to lose weight.

Anyhoo - Kevin's commentary about the food industry and the benefits of returning to basics is spot on.

Yikes, look at the time...
W
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Old 10-26-2009, 04:16 PM   #40
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
The Fast Food Industry alone spends Billions getting folks to eat it's garbage...and that is just one of a thousand examples...Our entire culture around food needs to change including how we grow it, harvest it, transport it, market it and finally eat it...We're all just reflections of that on most levels...We are truly a "Fast Food Nation."
Exactly. I wish my memory was better, but I vaguely recall an interesting video which described some of the effects of the agricultural revolution which occured during the 50's (Green Revolution?). Part of it, as I recall, had to do with how economic factors changed our traditional eating habits, for both good and bad. I'll have to look through some of my old notes and see if I can find anything interesting.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-26-2009, 04:27 PM   #41
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
[Big factor? Not really.]
I suppose I should have left it at "a" factor. Thanks for the correction and info!
Take care,
Matt

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Old 10-26-2009, 07:44 PM   #42
Keith Larman
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Re: Obesity

There is a very good book out there most of you should consider reading. "In Defense of Food, An Eater's Manifesto". Spectacular book that cuts through most of the food "industry" hype and BS. And it gives a fairly dispassionate look at what food is all about in the larger context of us as beings that do in fact need to eat...

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Old 10-26-2009, 08:29 PM   #43
DH
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
I got measured (height, weight, etc., for comparison with an actuarial table) and was told that my 176 lb fighting trim was overweight, and I should only weigh about 150 lb for my height. Didn't phase the idiot that I had almost no skinfold thickness (oh for those bygone days), could bench over 250 lb, do pullups with 80 lb tied to me, climb three flights of stairs with the 90 kg sempai piggybacked - I was obese and had to lose weight.

Anyhoo - Kevin's commentary about the food industry and the benefits of returning to basics is spot on.

Yikes, look at the time...
W
He's not an idiot for telling you so. Carrying muscle is "safer" then carrying fat for many reasons, but any tissue over a certain mass to frame ratio- none-the-less taxes your heart, lungs and circulatory system. I know of two powerlifters (healthy in every other way) who had heart attackes in their thirties. Opinion is not required.

Personally I think the best way to lose weight is to *conserve* energy.
1. Stop *carrying* food to your face.
2. And then you can cut down on your chewing.

Then if you can find the time get off your butt and exercise.

Most of the reasons the world has better overal "health care" stats than the U.S. is not their level of medical care, it's their lifestyle choices by way of preventative measures. We eat the worst diet, and are the fastest people, on earth due to our lifestyle choices.
Dan
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:55 PM   #44
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Joep, I got the impression Buck was trying to include more senstivity toward the obese, not to criticize Aikido...maybe I missed something?
Once again Matt, a big thanks.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:15 AM   #45
Janet Rosen
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Then if you can find the time get off your butt and exercise.
Like a tshirt says: "Ask your doctor if getting your butt off the couch is right for you."

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:37 AM   #46
jss
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Joep, I got the impression Buck was trying to include more senstivity toward the obese, not to criticize Aikido...maybe I missed something?
Well, in this post he did say:
Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
It just another jab at Aikido, its all other arts only have dangerously thin people.
To which I replied in this post:
Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
So what? If that was an attempt at criticizing Aikido, it wasn't a very intelligent one.
So first of all, I said it was the martial artist Buck spoke with that tried to criticize Aikido, not Buck himself.
And secondly, Buck qualified the other guy's remark as "another jab at Aikido", how is a jab not "an attempt to criticize"?
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Old 10-27-2009, 07:10 AM   #47
Buck
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Re: Obesity

There are attitudes against fatter people, it is discriminatory, and its getting worse. Aikidoka are people who because of our philosophy of the art should be sensitive and realistic, and not discriminatory.

A person can be charged twice the amount by an airline for being fatter. The average Joe says, get off the couch and stop stuffing your face with junk food, doctors are saying it is a national health crisis. Insurance company's are prejudice with coverage. There are industries against weight, like fashion, fitness, and movies that says beauty is thin which all effect the way we see each other. Yet, there should be other things that, that energy should go into that would benefit society.

Fat and obese people don't make money, being fat doesn't make a profit, say like Alcoholism does. Airlines support drinking, doctor's say wine and beer are good for you. Insurance companies will still insure you. Other industries glamorize drinking, we as a society accept drinking as a part of living. Yet, drinking, being drunk, kills more people, does more social damage, is worse for your health, a unhealthy lifestyle, and it isn't pretty. Yet the liquor industry is a billion dollar industry, therefore, that makes it socially acceptable.

I will discuss soon my comment about "another jab at Aikido" as there seems to be some confusion by a person about it. Basically, that we are more accepting of others thus we don't follow the perfect ideal.
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Old 10-27-2009, 07:51 AM   #48
DonMagee
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
There are attitudes against fatter people, it is discriminatory, and its getting worse. Aikidoka are people who because of our philosophy of the art should be sensitive and realistic, and not discriminatory.

A person can be charged twice the amount by an airline for being fatter. The average Joe says, get off the couch and stop stuffing your face with junk food, doctors are saying it is a national health crisis. Insurance company's are prejudice with coverage. There are industries against weight, like fashion, fitness, and movies that says beauty is thin which all effect the way we see each other. Yet, there should be other things that, that energy should go into that would benefit society.

Fat and obese people don't make money, being fat doesn't make a profit, say like Alcoholism does. Airlines support drinking, doctor's say wine and beer are good for you. Insurance companies will still insure you. Other industries glamorize drinking, we as a society accept drinking as a part of living. Yet, drinking, being drunk, kills more people, does more social damage, is worse for your health, a unhealthy lifestyle, and it isn't pretty. Yet the liquor industry is a billion dollar industry, therefore, that makes it socially acceptable.

I will discuss soon my comment about "another jab at Aikido" as there seems to be some confusion by a person about it. Basically, that we are more accepting of others thus we don't follow the perfect ideal.
I see nothing wrong with discrimination in itself. Discrimination contrary to popular belief is not a bad thing in every case. For example, I like high quality cuts of beef. I don't eat at a local steak shop because their beef is crappy. This is a good thing because hopefully they will go out of business or get better steaks.

I am discriminatory against people who choose to do things then expect me to accommodate their poor life choice. To me being too fat is no different then wanting to light up a smoke. It's disgusting and annoying. If they don't like the social stigma that comes with it, then they should deal with the problem and not ask for acceptance.

I pay higher car insurance rates. This is solely because I am a man. When I got married, my rates decreased? Why? Because married men tend to be safer drivers then unmarred ones. Well lets look at health. I think people who are not trying to live healthy are should pay higher insurance rates? Why? Because like this care insurance example, it will keep my rates down.

I have to work my ass off to keep halfway in shape. My body craves suger like it was crack. I can't even look at a pepsi without desiring it. I am almost always universally hungry. Yet somehow though pure force of will I'm able to keep myself under 180 pounds. I was 210 at one point in my life and my doctor told me I was on the path to becoming a diabetic. That forced a change in me. Yet I have family members who actually didn't stop, became diabetic, and still have not changed. Why should we not discriminate against them? They chose this.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:36 AM   #49
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I will discuss soon my comment about "another jab at Aikido" as there seems to be some confusion by a person about it.
Buck, I'd appreciate it if you would just use my name when referring to me.
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Old 10-27-2009, 11:03 AM   #50
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Yet I have family members who actually didn't stop, became diabetic, and still have not changed. Why should we not discriminate against them? They chose this.
Good Question...Here's another one... Can most Heroin Crack or Nicotine Addicts quit on their own without getting help?

For some it's the same with sugar...

Like I said before food is not just about nutrition... If it was... Obesity would be far less of an issue...

Here's a hint...The next time you walk in to a Grocery Store look around carefully...Where is the most nutritious food located? What about the junk food?

William Hazen
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