Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-18-2009, 09:36 PM   #1
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

I was talking about Sumo on another thread on how it differs from Aikido because it is about collision of force, at least at the on -set of a match either Oshi-zumo or Yotsu-zumo and the later is the focus of this post and referred to generally as technique. On the whole these techniques real make good use of making a good connection, controlling the opponent's center.

By connection I mean, when you move your opponent moves with you in the same time and direction. This is done when you have control of the center of the opponent's center of gravity and balance and the opponent has lost that. All the while you are maintaining your own. This isn't new, and that is my point.

Many of these techniques (including Oshi-dashi and Oshi-taoshi require the hip to come in play of both fighters. For one the small of the back on the winner is not broken; it isn't convex or concaved the hips are straight and in alignment with a straight spine. Whereas, the losers hips and spine are all out of alignment. The former being a stronger position, the later being the weaker position. This has great significants and modeling to understanding and utilizing connection and control of the center. By utilizing proper position and movement of hips and proper spine alignment combined are one of the major factors in the difference between winner and loser.

One might think that the stronger muscle groups of the hips and spine would contribute to achieving and maintain proper position through out a technique. But this isn't the case, completely. Yes, there has to be some muscle tone to keep the body from simply collapsing to the ground. The muscles only have to be strong enough to keep the hips and spine in place for the winner. This is the opposite for the loser who has to fight against forces and limitation of movement to right themselves. Unless they understand movement differently, and not struggle against force. Instead adjust the hips and spine where there is least resistance to try and right themselves. This true in away for the winner. He too can use other dynamic forces to help keep his hip and spine in proper position without exerting much muscle energy and tension to do so. That can be in his over all body position due to the technique to support his proper position- this can be readily seen in many techniques done during a match. In many techniques in Sumo it is center to center contact or in close proximity; modeling something we need to pay attention too.

Here is what Sumo can teach us, that proper body alignment (support your local chiropractor ) is essential to Aikidoka's. Don't believe me? Watch films of O'Sensei when he was young and when he was old. Look at his hips and small of his back, note what they do and what they don't do. Then do the opposite in the dojo at your next practice. You should find the importance of proper position has to do with getting that connection and controlling that center in your Aikido technique.

*In terms of Aikido practice and principle I was told this when applying say Nikyo. I would not have the proper hip and spine position as I described and the techniques was not as effective. FWIW. I am just sharing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2009, 09:48 AM   #2
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Hi Buck,

What is 'center to center' contact that you speak of here?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2009, 10:00 AM   #3
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Hara to hara. You move your opponent in sync with you. You control the opponent with your hips via his hips with your legs. Look up Glima and Scottish wrestling on Youtube for example of this. That is what is at the core of these two sports. It is harder to see it happening in Sumo in comparison to Glima or Scottish wrestling.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2009, 11:27 AM   #4
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Hara to hara. You move your opponent in sync with you. You control the opponent with your hips via his hips with your legs. Look up Glima and Scottish wrestling on Youtube for example of this. That is what is at the core of these two sports. It is harder to see it happening in Sumo in comparison to Glima or Scottish wrestling.
What if he doesn't want to move with you? Would the dance be over? Is sumo a form of Japanese dance?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2009, 03:36 PM   #5
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

To give an accurate answer I will need more detail for you like are you meaning a counter or because of weight difference. etc.

Last edited by Buck : 10-25-2009 at 03:38 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2009, 03:54 PM   #6
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

What I find important is hip control that comes from or is generated from the legs. If you look at the wazas I mentioned the hips are in sync, they parallel each other. Once the hips are in the desired position the leg(s) are the energy to move (not position) the hips on a desired line. Power is generated from the foot to the leg and into the hip. But the pelvises must be mirrored and a connection created (the defensive hip moves the offensive hip moving as one unit). If you are going to move someone with the great result, it is the pelvis you want to move. Where the pelvis goes so does the body. This is a very fundamental and well known concept in Aikido. Though, Aikido applies it differently under different circumstances, and sometimes isn't readily seen as being the same idea in Sumo.

The legs are just not limited to working in the only way I said they did. FWIW.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2009, 02:08 AM   #7
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
What I find important is hip control that comes from or is generated from the legs. If you look at the wazas I mentioned the hips are in sync, they parallel each other. Once the hips are in the desired position the leg(s) are the energy to move (not position) the hips on a desired line. Power is generated from the foot to the leg and into the hip. But the pelvises must be mirrored and a connection created (the defensive hip moves the offensive hip moving as one unit). If you are going to move someone with the great result, it is the pelvis you want to move. Where the pelvis goes so does the body. This is a very fundamental and well known concept in Aikido. Though, Aikido applies it differently under different circumstances, and sometimes isn't readily seen as being the same idea in Sumo.

The legs are just not limited to working in the only way I said they did. FWIW.
How do you move the pelvis? How do you mirror your pelvis with the other man's pelvis? What is the offensive hip and what is the defensive hip? And how is moving the pelvis a well known concept in Aikido? Where has Ueshiba or Shioda or Tohei talked about moving the pelvis?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2009, 10:56 AM   #8
Mark Mueller
Location: Louisville Kentucky
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 161
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

That I look better in a dogi and hakama than I do in Thong underwear.....
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2009, 12:14 PM   #9
Patrick Hutchinson
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 94
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

So a fundoshi-nage would be a wedgie?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2009, 07:25 PM   #10
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
How do you move the pelvis? How do you mirror your pelvis with the other man's pelvis? What is the offensive hip and what is the defensive hip? And how is moving the pelvis a well known concept in Aikido? Where has Ueshiba or Shioda or Tohei talked about moving the pelvis?
Well to answer most or your questions you look and learn about Sumo technique, there is loads of info on the net and on youtube. The O'Sensei question, I don't know. He could have talked about it in his poems, but am not an expert in interpreting his poems. Don't know about the other senseis but you will have to ask their students and look at their films, and do that research. Also that would be a great topic for another thread. But the topic of the thread is what can we learn from Sumo.

My question's purpose is that it has been said and believed that all martial arts come from Sumo. I am not an expert on Japan or Japanese language to pin point meaning or context of this phrase precisely if it was literal or otherwise. But for the sake of being a western minded person and with the use of observation I see similarity. I am not sure if they are intended or not. But they do exist, and it can be debated to what level or degree it exists. It is plainly obvious they do exist. It may not be to everyone, but that is the purpose of the thread; to explore that.

My kindly suggestion to you would be to answer your own questions present your findings. And I will be glad to discuss them here affording them an open mindedness and affable manner.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2009, 09:33 PM   #11
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Well to answer most or your questions you look and learn about Sumo technique, there is loads of info on the net and on youtube. The O'Sensei question, I don't know. He could have talked about it in his poems, but am not an expert in interpreting his poems. Don't know about the other senseis but you will have to ask their students and look at their films, and do that research. Also that would be a great topic for another thread. But the topic of the thread is what can we learn from Sumo.

My question's purpose is that it has been said and believed that all martial arts come from Sumo. I am not an expert on Japan or Japanese language to pin point meaning or context of this phrase precisely if it was literal or otherwise. But for the sake of being a western minded person and with the use of observation I see similarity. I am not sure if they are intended or not. But they do exist, and it can be debated to what level or degree it exists. It is plainly obvious they do exist. It may not be to everyone, but that is the purpose of the thread; to explore that.

My kindly suggestion to you would be to answer your own questions present your findings. And I will be glad to discuss them here affording them an open mindedness and affable manner.

I've done aikido for 3 years and have never come across a sensei telling me that "moving the pelvis" is fundamental in aikido, nor has Ueshiba, Shioda, Tohei, etc. have talked about it. You are talking hot air here.

"My question's purpose is that it has been said and believed that all martial arts come from Sumo."

Says who? Please cite the appropriate references.

"But for the sake of being a western minded person and with the use of observation I see similarity."

What does a western-minded person have to do anything with seeing similarities?

"But they do exist, and it can be debated to what level or degree it exists. It is plainly obvious they do exist."

What are the similarities that "plainly exist" between aikido and sumo? Is it the way "sumos mirror one's pelvis with the other"? If so, what does that mean and how do you do it? Again, what is the offensive hip and what is the defensive hip? And how is moving the pelvis a well known concept in Aikido?

Please don't tell me to answer my own questions--either that is a dishonest way for you to tell me that you don't know anything about the similarities between sumo and aikido and the dynamics of the underlying principles in both fighting arts, or you are just trolling this site to get the attention you need.

You asserted in the OP as though you clearly knew what you were talking about, so I wanted to inquire on the depth of what you definitively asserted.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2009, 09:56 PM   #12
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I've done aikido for 3 years and have never come across a sensei telling me that "moving the pelvis" is fundamental in aikido, nor has Ueshiba, Shioda, Tohei, etc. have talked about it. You are talking hot air here.
No one is saying that. You brought that up. Here is what I said, "Sumo can teach us, that proper body alignment (support your local chiropractor ) is essential to Aikidoka's. Don't believe me? Watch films of O'Sensei when he was young and when he was old. Look at his hips and small of his back, note what they do and what they don't do. Then do the opposite in the dojo at your next practice. You should find the importance of proper position has to do with getting that connection and controlling that center in your Aikido technique."

I am talking about body alignment. I am asking to look at his hips and make an observation. Then I suggest to take your observations and test it the dojo and see what the results are. I suggest that what a person find is the importance of proper body position in controling the center mass of the body. That is a very fundemental concept in Aikido and many Japanese martial arts to move from your hara, where you power comes from. If you want that to work at a optimum level proper body position/alignment helps. Find that is up to you, and it is done via practice.

Quote:

You asserted in the OP as though you clearly knew what you were talking about, so I wanted to inquire on the depth of what you definitively asserted.
As I said before, I don't claim expertise or have the answers. That is up to each individual to find their own answers, and conclusions. I have shared mine.

My POV is a method of personal discovery and sharing information and that is what interests me. That is the beauty of a form, and in IMO the main reason and only reason for a forum like this.

Look at Sumo and see what you can find!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2009, 11:06 PM   #13
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
No one is saying that. You brought that up. Here is what I said, "Sumo can teach us, that proper body alignment (support your local chiropractor ) is essential to Aikidoka's. Don't believe me? Watch films of O'Sensei when he was young and when he was old. Look at his hips and small of his back, note what they do and what they don't do. Then do the opposite in the dojo at your next practice. You should find the importance of proper position has to do with getting that connection and controlling that center in your Aikido technique."

I am talking about body alignment. I am asking to look at his hips and make an observation. Then I suggest to take your observations and test it the dojo and see what the results are. I suggest that what a person find is the importance of proper body position in controling the center mass of the body. That is a very fundemental concept in Aikido and many Japanese martial arts to move from your hara, where you power comes from. If you want that to work at a optimum level proper body position/alignment helps. Find that is up to you, and it is done via practice.

As I said before, I don't claim expertise or have the answers. That is up to each individual to find their own answers, and conclusions. I have shared mine.

My POV is a method of personal discovery and sharing information and that is what interests me. That is the beauty of a form, and in IMO the main reason and only reason for a forum like this.

Look at Sumo and see what you can find!
" you are going to move someone with the great result, it is the pelvis you want to move. Where the pelvis goes so does the body. This is a very fundamental and well known concept in Aikido. Though, Aikido applies it differently under different circumstances, and sometimes isn't readily seen as being the same idea in Sumo."

I never said that Buck. You did.

"I suggest that what a person find is the importance of proper body position in controling the center mass of the body. That is a very fundemental concept in Aikido and many Japanese martial arts to move from your hara, where you power comes from. "

What is "proper body position" and how doesit help "control" the "center mass of the body"? Also, how do you move from the "hara" and how does power come from it?

"As I said before, I don't claim expertise or have the answers. That is up to each individual to find their own answers, and conclusions. I have shared mine. "

It seems like you are claiming so. You are asserting in a definitive manner (e.g., "here is what sumo teaches us..."). But let's say you are just backpeddling now and reverting to your opinion--even then, what you say doesn't really make any clear sense, nor does it help any of us here how to make the observation of the similarities between sumo and Aikido applicable to our training. Why are you interested in sharing, is it because you want to help us in our own personal martial arts journeys? If you are then, you would take the time to answer my questions and unpack some of the terms and phrases you chose to wrote in the OP and in the successive posts.

Sharing information is supposed to help the audience whom you wish to share with; it does not suggest you stand up on a podium and talk about about unclear things. This kind of fluffy, poetical pontificating is intellectual masturbation that martial artists are not interested in.

I want to know whether you are intellectually masturbating, or whether you genuinely want to help out the aiki community with your personal discoveries. If you want to do the latter, please explain at depth some of the terms I asked you to shed light on before.

"My POV is a method of personal discovery and sharing information and that is what interests me."

This doesn't make sense. A point of view is not a method, much less one of personal discovery and sharing information. What are you trying to say here?

"That is the beauty of a form, and in IMO the main reason and only reason for a forum like this. "

How does sharing your opinions have anything to do with a "form"? Also, what "form" are you talking about? And what is the main reason and the only reason for a forum like this? The beauty of the form is the main and only reason for a forum like this? Or sharing your unclear observations/opinions without it being analyzed in depth is perhaps the main and only reason?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2009, 01:56 AM   #14
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I've done aikido for 3 years and have never come across a sensei telling me that "moving the pelvis" is fundamental in aikido, nor has Ueshiba, Shioda, Tohei, etc. have talked about it. You are talking hot air here.
None of those men have talked about the importance of koshi? I'd find that very hard to believe.

Edit: And I know that Buck wrote "pelvis" and not "koshi", but the term "koshi" includes the pelvis.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2009, 02:55 AM   #15
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
None of those men have talked about the importance of koshi? I'd find that very hard to believe.

Edit: And I know that Buck wrote "pelvis" and not "koshi", but the term "koshi" includes the pelvis.
I haven't encountered it. Not in any of Ueshiba's doukas, not in Shioda's "Dynamic Aikido", nor did any of my former Aikido teachers say anything important about the pelvis. I didn't mean to suggest that these men 'didn't' talk about it, it's just not prevalent in public literature (excuse my poor choice of words). It's been a while since I read Tohei's books on "Ki" but for the most part he, and Shioda, and Ueshiba talked a lot about 'breath' and 'breath training'. Usng the pelvis is just not a 'fundamental' or 'well known' concept as Buck describes it.

Lately, since the 'internal strength' thing is raging now in the American aiki community, discussions on the pelvis have been popping up, but even then, ideas on how to use it and how it affects the body structure, the fascia, etc. are still, I believe, underdeveloped and unclear, contrary to what Buck ignorantly supposes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2009, 06:40 AM   #16
Rennis Buchner
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 60
Japan
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I haven't encountered it. Not in any of Ueshiba's doukas, not in Shioda's "Dynamic Aikido", nor did any of my former Aikido teachers say anything important about the pelvis. I didn't mean to suggest that these men 'didn't' talk about it, it's just not prevalent in public literature (excuse my poor choice of words). It's been a while since I read Tohei's books on "Ki" but for the most part he, and Shioda, and Ueshiba talked a lot about 'breath' and 'breath training'. Usng the pelvis is just not a 'fundamental' or 'well known' concept as Buck describes it.

Lately, since the 'internal strength' thing is raging now in the American aiki community, discussions on the pelvis have been popping up, but even then, ideas on how to use it and how it affects the body structure, the fascia, etc. are still, I believe, underdeveloped and unclear, contrary to what Buck ignorantly supposes.
Strange then that my late-aikido teacher here in Japan (Aikikai) talked about "koshi" usage, as did my old teacher back in the US (Yoshinkan), as do just about ever teacher of every other Japanese martial art I have trained in here. I'd go so far as to say that one of the few things you can rely upon Japanese martial artists to stress endlessly, almost regardless of the art, is "koshi" and "kokyu". Whether they actually know what they are talking about is a different issue, but the emphasis is spread across the board pretty evenly. Off hand I would even go as far as to say that having "weak koshi" is one of the most common comments I hear sensei give to their students over here.

As for it not popping up in douka, that isn't really surprising if you have had much exposure to martial poetry in Japan and the sort of topics they tend to cover.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2009, 07:07 AM   #17
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Sumo What Can It Teach Us?

Quote:
Rennis Buchner wrote: View Post
Strange then that my late-aikido teacher here in Japan (Aikikai) talked about "koshi" usage, as did my old teacher back in the US (Yoshinkan), as do just about ever teacher of every other Japanese martial art I have trained in here. I'd go so far as to say that one of the few things you can rely upon Japanese martial artists to stress endlessly, almost regardless of the art, is "koshi" and "kokyu". Whether they actually know what they are talking about is a different issue, but the emphasis is spread across the board pretty evenly. Off hand I would even go as far as to say that having "weak koshi" is one of the most common comments I hear sensei give to their students over here.

As for it not popping up in douka, that isn't really surprising if you have had much exposure to martial poetry in Japan and the sort of topics they tend to cover.
Kokyu and ki would come up all the time. I used to train in the Aikikai and at an unaffiliated dojo, and these were the core, fundamental ideas. I also recently visited a Roppokai (Daito Ryu) dojo, and we did some agete, and did some 'kokyu' work that would help 'tilt' the pelvis, stretch the back suit, suck the guy in and take his balance--there was talk about 'kokyu' power again but not about the pelvis, although it was being worked directly.

Maybe these fellas are just keeping the secrets from me? .
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Instructors of low rank what's my ip? Teaching 130 12-29-2009 01:39 PM
Who's eligible to teach Aikido? And what level a sensei should be? Ivan Lezhnjov Jr. General 37 07-08-2009 03:58 PM
Aikido and Sumo Robert Rumpf General 11 02-25-2007 09:05 PM
Learning to teach Amassus Teaching 2 07-25-2004 08:34 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:47 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate