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Old 10-23-2009, 11:00 PM   #1
Buck
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Obesity

Since the re-do of the BMI scale some years back millions more of American's went from fat to obese. That is to say a beer bellied, 230 lbs 5'9" middle aged male ( I am keeping the lady's out of this. ) went from love handles and a beer gut to obese. Now airlines are really putting their foot down on fat people, making them buy another seat.

Ever since American stopped smoking we got fat. Since then there has been a push by doctors and insurance companies to target fat people and make them thin for some years know. Pushing for this idea weight we all should be, and it is measured be latest BMI. This has lead to a more public discrimination against fat people.

If discrimination is defined as being against, the color of a person skin, sex, sexuality, and everything else, except fat and white men, why is obese/fat being excluded from discrimination?

We all know Aikido isn't an active that burns fat and calories like other activities. Often this leads to getting fat, and lots of Aikidoka are obese according to the current BMI scale. I have seen a lot of BMI's in the obese range on the mat, especially senseis. Yes, lots of pot bellies and love handles. And a few obese in the old sense of the world. People who are hundreds of pounds over weight. Society founds upon fat people, constantly wanting to turn them thin. Thin has and was the ideal in society. And fat people get stereotyped and all that, and more. They can't even get on the airbus.

Does having a high BMI as an Aikido reflect badly on Aikido, in a society that has constantly preferred thin over fat for about, around, a 200, and think is suppose to be healthier. Can society afford obese people, and thus, can Aikido afford it?

For example, do you charge a fat person more because their weight breaks the mat down faster then thin one. Or because it takes a longer time and more effort to teach them say, ukemi; their body mass inhibits motion making it harder from them to learn. Do you give them a pass because of it. Are you concerned you have a fat dojo; equating to a poor out of shape dojo, lazy dojo, that would rather eat then train. The rational is if they are fat, they mustn't be training, they must sit around and talk about it, then actually train and burn those calories.

Your thoughts.
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Old 10-24-2009, 12:27 AM   #2
Abasan
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Sumo's train as hard as any olympic wrestlers, and on the BMI they are over obese usually. Is it harder to teach them? I don't think so. Are they lazy. I don't think so.

But are they normal or healthy? That I suppose would be the question to ask yourself. As a human being, we should always strive for balance. Aikido teaches us harmony. Its one thing to say this in the dojo while throwing people around, but its another when we are shoving carbs, fat and sugar in that we really don't need.

Simply said to survive an adult would need approximately 2000 calories give or take a couple of hundred either way. There is really no excuse for us to go at it say 4-6000 calories intake a day is it?

That's the fact. And yes we need to do exercise and yes genetics has something to say about your body weight. But at the base for all of us that fit the bell curve, its about how much we take in a day.

I support overly fat people buying 2 seats for the air ticket or bus or rail. They are afterall taking the space of 2 normal adults. Have you ever gotten squeezed out of your seat by the other passenger who is overflowing all over the place? God forbid if he has to seat in the middle, the guy at the window seat has no chance!

Discrimination what? What about midgets? You don't see the airlines giving them half rates although they take less space and cost less to transport. That's discrimination because there's nothing you can do to not be a midget. <- is that insensitive? I can't tell how Americans view insensitivity this days what with watching all those episodes of House MD and that law series starring captain kirk..thingey.

Anyway I don't really know what this has to do with Aikido... sure there are lots of fat senseis and shihans out there. A lot of Japanese shihans guzzle beer like it was oxygen or something. Yet Osensei rarely imbibes... and he was far from fat. Gozo Shioda was slim, Yamaguichi was slim... We're not talking about model slim here to the point of anorexic but normal slim you know, with a bit of flab here and there. If there's anyone I want to model myself on it would be those guys and not sorry to say, Steven seagal and uh... the other shihans who may be reading this (and hopefully forget my name altogether).

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 10-24-2009, 02:04 AM   #3
jss
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Quote:
Ever since American stopped smoking we got fat.
Smoking reduces appetite and feeling hungry. Some girls take up smoking to lose weight.

Quote:
Pushing for this idea weight we all should be, and it is measured be latest BMI. This has lead to a more public discrimination against fat people.
Don't forget the above average muscular people. As BMI is your weight-height ration, BMI cannot discern fat from muscle.

Quote:
If discrimination is defined as being against, the color of a person skin, sex, sexuality, and everything else, except fat and white men, why is obese/fat being excluded from discrimination?
Because being fat is seen as being (in most cases) a matter of choice. On the other hand how much of a choice is it when you're working two jobs, still earn barely enough money to live from, the nearest supermarket with fresh food is quite far away, you've never learned how to cook cheap healthy meals and you have all these cheap fast food places just around the corner?

Quote:
Society founds upon fat people, constantly wanting to turn them thin. Thin has and was the ideal in society.
Thin is not the ideal. Perhaps it was for some time, but there's more and more protest against the too skinny models. The ideal (for normal people, fashion models are lagging behind) is becoming more and more 'healthy'.

Quote:
Does having a high BMI as an Aikido reflect badly on Aikido, in a society that has constantly preferred thin over fat for about, around, a 200, and think is suppose to be healthier. Can society afford obese people, and thus, can Aikido afford it?
Do you think overweight is healthy?
And I don't think Aikido can afford it as long as Aikido is claiming to be a type of physical exercise. And personally, I do expect some stamina from my training partners. I don't like to stop training because my partner needs to catch his/her breath because he/she is out of shape.
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Old 10-24-2009, 05:33 AM   #4
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
We all know Aikido isn't an active
that burns fat and calories like other activities.
Who is "we"?
The way we practice, you burn a lot of calories und you can easily looe weight by doing Aikido.
How do you train?

Quote:
Often this leads to getting fat, and lots of Aikidoka are obese according to the current BMI scale. I have seen a lot of BMI's in the obese range on the mat, especially senseis.
Well you don't see a lot fat people doin Aikido here.

Does having a high BMI as an Aikido reflect badly on Aikido, in a society that has constantly preferred thin over fat for about, around, a 200, and think is suppose to be healthier. Can society afford obese people, and thus, can Aikido afford it?

Quote:
Your thoughts.
First time I hear obesity and Aikido connected this way because fat people in Aikido (as i know it) are a very small exception.

Carsten
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Old 10-24-2009, 06:20 AM   #5
Shadowfax
 
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Ok I'm a big chick. But I have to tell ya my friend most thin people could not keep up with even half of the stuff I do. I have a very active high energy as in in motion on my feet all the time as well as working with horses both riding them and being under them working on their hooves.

There are a lot of factors that play into a person size that don not necessarily mean lazy and over eater. I do think some people are genetically programed to be bigger than others.

Now I'm not making excuses for over weight people. I've been often heard to call my self fat. But I also carry a lot more muscle than the average 5'7" woman does.

but I have to tell ya I seriously do not think it took me longer to learn to roll than your average skinny guy. I rather get the impression I learned it a bit quicker than many. LOL after all I'm round... round things roll quite well thank you very much. And we have less corners and more padding. Rolling and falling does not hurt us nearly so much.

As for thin being the ideal... it has not always been so. Look back at paintings and pictures of people in early centuries. The image of beauty has changed some. Women used to have curves and were a bit heavier than today. Marlyn Monro was a size 18.

Since starting Aikido in addition to my other activities Ive lost a bit of weight which I am more than pleased about. I believe it is helping me to get into better condition over all. Aikido burns a huge amount of energy.

Will I ever be thin? No. I am not designed that way. I have learned to appreciate having a strong, solid build. Just come grab my wrist some time and try to move me.

Do my partners often have to wait around for me to catch my breath? LOL not usually. But then I'm not your average fat girl.

Stop looking at the size of peoples bodies and pay attention to how much drive and heart they have. After all Aikido is about love and acceptance right?
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Old 10-24-2009, 07:23 AM   #6
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
First time I hear obesity and Aikido connected this way because fat people in Aikido (as i know it) are a very small exception.
I've heard it lots of times, but related to USA.

My BMI is 23.8. What about yours, guys & gals?

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Old 10-24-2009, 07:34 AM   #7
AsimHanif
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

This is something I often discuss since I not only run a dojo but I’m involved in fitness as a whole. I don’t necessarily agree with your premise but I do think there are a lot of martial artists today who are out of shape. There are a lot of reasons for this obviously. The least of which I would say is from quitting smoking.
Normally we don’t do enough conditioning in an aikido class. There is just not enough time. I often stress the need for doing separate conditioning training outside of aikido. I get very irritated when I see a person younger than me gassing out during training. A catch 22 for aikido (and other arts) is that the more efficient you become, the less movement you rely on, hence less activity = less calories being burned. So we have to do more outside of class.
I often hear about such and such a sensei being big (overweight) and still being effective. That may be true on the mat to some extent but I also view this as a quality of life issue. How much more functional could a person be if they were in shape and to me that doesn’t mean just ‘not obese’. There are many people who look fit (no fat) but are not physically fit.
As far as BMI is concerned I say ‘throw that out’. Its not the best indicator of fitness levels. I prefer for people to look objectively at themselves. How do your cloths fit? Do you get out of breath quickly? Can you hear yourself breathe while standing still? Do you have a hard time getting up after a few rolls?
As far as examples in aikido I think we can look at the Shihan who are or have lived well into their 80’s. Look at their body type. Most from my recollection seem to be on the slimmer side. More importantly examine how functional they‘ve been in later years (on and off the mat). How many Shihan today in their 60’s don’t even take ukemi? I’ve observed a lot of 6 dan’s who are really broken up today from training harsh (not hard) which to me relates to improper conditioning, health and wellness.
Don’t’ mean to go on and on but this is a BIG issue for me.

Asim

Last edited by AsimHanif : 10-24-2009 at 07:37 AM. Reason: corrected sentence
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:44 AM   #8
Buck
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Ok I'm a big chick.
As for thin being the ideal... it has not always been so. Women used to have curves and were a bit heavier than today. Marlyn Monro was a size 18.

Will I ever be thin? No. I am not designed that way.

Stop looking at the size of peoples bodies and pay attention to how much drive and heart they have. After all Aikido is about love and acceptance right?
As we both know the US is bent on being thin. Even when Marilyn was around so was twiggy. But if you look at the Lucille Ball Show, only the kids where thin. Before that May West, and Babe Ruth.

There is this effort today in the US by changing the BMI scale to make more people obese who had curves and love-handles, thus targeting their size as a health issue. This causes a more discriminatory society against people who are not the "ideal" weight, of -1 body fat

The discrimination is growing against fat people. Like I said Airlines are charging double ticket price for a fat person who say weights 270lbs of average height, but the price of a ticket isn't doubled a tall person who is of the same weight or more due to the height. Some restaurants are doing the same. I am not even looking at the stuff that has been around so long that is anti-weight we have gotten so use to it we don't notice anymore. Like the movie industry, the beauty industry, and the fashion industry. Take the resent photoshoping of a picture of a model who was considered too heavy. The doctoring of her photo made an already thin woman look unrealistically and unhealthily thin.

I don't know if Aikido is about the type of "love" about, or "acceptance" Cherie is talking, but what I do know is that the there is a greater effort here America to look down upon people that are not the ideal body weight, and this will and is being translated into the dojo.

With more of an effort of society pushing for "ideal" weight for everyone via now the medical community targeting the weight of kids giving insurance companies reasons not to insure people including a breast-feed baby that was over the set "ideal" weight for infants- as the percentile standard for ideal is set on non-breast feed babies who are much thinner (less healthier) than breast feed babies (more healthy). The medical community is targeting K-12 school kids teaching them that fat is bad. Fat kids for decades have been teased about being fat, but that wasn't always the case. For example, the old show "Our Gang/The Little Rascals " where they had a fat kid who wasn't mocked. But now with the stronger newer effort against...well...fatter people then the ideal, these people will be less accepted into society than before. This will again translate into the dojo with the next generations. As well as insurance companies discriminating against fat Aikidoka.

Now as time goes on we may see it harder for people to get a space for a dojo based on insurance companies discriminatory practices against fatter people. It is a liability to have a fatter person in the dojo for risk of heat attack and other non-sense presented by the insurance company, so the cost of covering a dojo could be more expensive that usual based on having a fatter Aikidoka- one who doesn't meet that ideal BMI for their height.

As there are real health concerns for really over-weight people and the obese in terms of Aikido and health issues. But I think the new anti-fat concern represented by a sliding BMI scale and society's madness for the perfect weight that will become an unspoken discrimination against those who don't measure up to the ideal BMI inside and outside of the dojo.

Cherie, I hear ya. You as a "big chick" are facing even more pressure to be less that you are. You sound like your "weight" isn't an issue in the dojo, but do you think in the future with the stronger effort to make everyone the perfect weight will effect the way new Aikidoka will look at you? Will there be a hidden discriminating feelings toward fatter people despite the common idea Aikido is about acceptance?

Last edited by Buck : 10-24-2009 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:51 AM   #9
Linda Eskin
 
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
My BMI is 23.8. What about yours, guys & gals?
24.8, down from 29.8 since I started Aikido in May. (5' 8", 163 pounds, down from 196 pounds) Looking to drop a bit more, too.

I don't like BMI, though. It doesn't take into account general frame size, and with size 11 feet I'm saying I'm built pretty sturdy by nature. Most womens watch bands won't even fit on my wrists, and there is no fat on my wrists. I'm never going to be "willowy" like some slimmer-built women. It also doesn't take into account muscle. I'm sure I am carrying more muscle now than I was when I was heavier.

Either way, Aikido has been directly helpful in losing weight (from doing classes), but even more so by pointing out emphatically how out of shape I was. I was (and am) highly motivated to get in much better shape so I can do better at Aikido. I've been a lot more active (walking, doing strengthening exercises, etc.) along with Aikido classes.

Linda Eskin - Facebook | My AikiBlog

"Heaven is right where you are standing, and that is the place to train." - Morihei Ueshiba
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Old 10-24-2009, 09:18 AM   #10
Buck
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Quote:
Asim Hanif wrote: View Post
This is something I often discuss since I not only run a dojo but I'm involved in fitness as a whole. I don't necessarily agree with your premise but I do think there are a lot of martial artists today who are out of shape.
Asim
Good point. It is something I am addressing too, is attitude toward fatter people. Not wanting to create an argument, but rather to express there is validation for the idea that fat people are often not though of as being fit. If you have love handles and lacking six-pack abs many people think you are not fit. This means Aikidoka (what I am getting at) being fatter translates to them not putting enough effort into their training to lose weight. How true or false is that among us?
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:16 AM   #11
Aikibu
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Hey I may be a bit fat right now but what can I say I am an Ectomesomorph to begin with...

At least I don't have a pony tail and dance on the mat...LOL

On a serious note I think the whole issue is another slander meme foisted upon Aikido by folks who need a reason to dislike it.

That being said being a good shape is essential for practicing any Martial Art if you actually want to enjoy what you're doing.

I know of several Yudansha who have had to get hip replacements ( One very popular Woman had it done and her progress was posted here) and live with some degree of disability...

Believe it or not Aikido is IMHO... An "impact sport"

Now being in good shape may delay the onset on some Aikido related injuries but if you are practicing all aspects of Aikido during class with a certain degree of vigor... You're going get a workout and deal with allot of impact trauma to the body...The effect is CUMULATIVE folks.

Personally I let everyone train to the level they're physically comfortable with and just try to help them overcome their own mental and physical limitations with allot of encouragement. That is the essence of any practice right?

I don't know how many times I have visited another Dojo and the Instructor decided that tonight is going to be "BREAKFALL NIGHT" Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

I guess some folks just can't get enough of seeing some big guy fly through the air and hit the mat with the sound of thunder.

William Hazen
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:48 AM   #12
Shadowfax
 
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Quote:
Cherie, I hear ya. You as a "big chick" are facing even more pressure to be less that you are. You sound like your "weight" isn't an issue in the dojo, but do you think in the future with the stronger effort to make everyone the perfect weight will effect the way new Aikidoka will look at you? Will there be a hidden discriminating feelings toward fatter people despite the common idea Aikido is about acceptance?
LOL my weight isn't an issue anywhere. I don't allow it to be.
I seriously doubt that the attempt to make every one the "perfect" weight will succeed. And to be honest people will always have their little prejudices and biases. You know what? That's ok by me. Its kind of hard to make people believe what you want them to you have to show them by actions that they are wrong. Maybe even then they will never accept it or change their viewpoint. Who really cares? In fact for all I know maybe people took one look at me at the start and thought this person will never make it or this person can't possibly be serious... I'm pretty sure I proved to them I can and I am.

Numbers are meaningless. Show me what you can do. All we each can do is live the best life we can live for ourselves. What someone else thinks is irrelevant.

At least a fat aikidokka can still do aikido... how many fat old karateka are out there still as effective as they were when they were younger and thinner? No matter the discipline or the chosen activity we are at least trying to be active.

Last edited by Shadowfax : 10-24-2009 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 10-24-2009, 12:32 PM   #13
Buck
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
LOL my weight isn't an issue anywhere. I don't allow it to be.
I seriously doubt that the attempt to make every one the "perfect" weight will succeed. And to be honest people will always have their little prejudices and biases. You know what? That's ok by me. Its kind of hard to make people believe what you want them to you have to show them by actions that they are wrong. Maybe even then they will never accept it or change their viewpoint. Who really cares? In fact for all I know maybe people took one look at me at the start and thought this person will never make it or this person can't possibly be serious... I'm pretty sure I proved to them I can and I am.

Numbers are meaningless. Show me what you can do. All we each can do is live the best life we can live for ourselves. What someone else thinks is irrelevant.

At least a fat aikidokka can still do aikido... how many fat old karateka are out there still as effective as they were when they were younger and thinner? No matter the discipline or the chosen activity we are at least trying to be active.
Kudo! It is great to hear strong positive people confident in who they are, and what they believe in even if it's against the "popular vote." Going against what other's think is best for you isn't easy. Stay strong and positive, I applaud you.
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Old 10-24-2009, 01:26 PM   #14
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Since the re-do of the BMI scale some years back millions more of American's went from fat to obese. That is to say a beer bellied, 230 lbs 5'9" middle aged male ( I am keeping the lady's out of this. ) went from love handles and a beer gut to obese. Now airlines are really putting their foot down on fat people, making them buy another seat.

Ever since American stopped smoking we got fat. Since then there has been a push by doctors and insurance companies to target fat people and make them thin for some years know. Pushing for this idea weight we all should be, and it is measured be latest BMI. This has lead to a more public discrimination against fat people.

If discrimination is defined as being against, the color of a person skin, sex, sexuality, and everything else, except fat and white men, why is obese/fat being excluded from discrimination?

We all know Aikido isn't an active that burns fat and calories like other activities. Often this leads to getting fat, and lots of Aikidoka are obese according to the current BMI scale. I have seen a lot of BMI's in the obese range on the mat, especially senseis. Yes, lots of pot bellies and love handles. And a few obese in the old sense of the world. People who are hundreds of pounds over weight. Society founds upon fat people, constantly wanting to turn them thin. Thin has and was the ideal in society. And fat people get stereotyped and all that, and more. They can't even get on the airbus.

Does having a high BMI as an Aikido reflect badly on Aikido, in a society that has constantly preferred thin over fat for about, around, a 200, and think is suppose to be healthier. Can society afford obese people, and thus, can Aikido afford it?

For example, do you charge a fat person more because their weight breaks the mat down faster then thin one. Or because it takes a longer time and more effort to teach them say, ukemi; their body mass inhibits motion making it harder from them to learn. Do you give them a pass because of it. Are you concerned you have a fat dojo; equating to a poor out of shape dojo, lazy dojo, that would rather eat then train. The rational is if they are fat, they mustn't be training, they must sit around and talk about it, then actually train and burn those calories.

Your thoughts.
What's the point here? I think I'll call up Chuck and Francis and whoop some skinny boy butt.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 10-24-2009, 02:25 PM   #15
lbb
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Buck, your ability to make assertions that just ain't so never ceases to amaze me.
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Old 10-24-2009, 02:39 PM   #16
Buck
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Mary explain...pls.

Mary a friendly warning, I have gotten warnings for less in terms of your rudeness (directed at me) and not directing your comments to the topic. I fully agree and support this rule. Pls make your response accordingly. Thxs.



George, I am guessing your question to me was rhetoric.

Last edited by Buck : 10-24-2009 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 10-24-2009, 05:23 PM   #17
lbb
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Buck, your "friendly" warning is taken in the spirit in which it was issued. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that you should make whatever statements you want (and particularly if you don't proofread what you write), and then cry "rudeness" if someone says that you're saying things that just aren't so. I'd like to see a citation of an airline policy to charge more for people who weigh 270 pounds. I'd like to see the logical connection between a societal bias against heavy people and the existence of legally protected categories. And, as much as I trust insurance companies considerably less far than I can throw them, I'd like to see some better reasoning than a shaky paper-chain of "if THIS unlikely thing were true, then THAT improbable event might happen, which could pave the way to THOSE other unlikely events". I think there's a good discussion to be had on the subject of whether aikidoka are in good enough shape, on average, for what we're doing (or want to do). I think there's a completely different good discussion about societal biases against heavy people, although that discussion should take place somewhere other than this forum since it has nothing to do with aikido. I think there's another good conversation to have about the license that insurance companies have in creating arbitrary criteria to exclude people from coverage, although that's a discussion that needs to be based on facts and not on statements like "and then they COULD say this and they COULD do that and they COULD deny you coverage", and it's also not a discussion for aikiweb. So, maybe you could identify which of these conversations (or some other conversation altogether) you'd like to have. Jumble them all together, and they work at cross-purposes IMO.
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Old 10-24-2009, 05:49 PM   #18
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I've heard it lots of times, but related to USA.

My BMI is 23.8. What about yours, guys & gals?
33.3 here. And I'm not fat, just... strong
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Old 10-24-2009, 07:48 PM   #19
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Obesity and Aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
What's the point here? I think I'll call up Chuck and Francis and whoop some skinny boy butt.
Too much trouble, George... besides, I don't like the way their bones sound when they... oh, never mind...

Besides, I've misplaced a bit over forty pounds in the past three months and will continue to pay little attention to where I've left them for another sixty. They won't do the hip replacement until I've lost the weight... rest easy folks, it's your tax dollars at work, and thank you very much.

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 10-24-2009, 09:22 PM   #20
Buck
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Re: Obesity

This whole thread came about last month when I had a discussion with another martial artist who said fat/obese people take Aikido. We started off talking about much of what I already posted. I was insulted by his comment. I am not fat or obese. I am not out of shape or in great shape. It just another jab at Aikido, its all other arts only have dangerously thin people. Then it got me thinking, and I start to look around at what I didn't see before in the dojo. The discrimination towards fatter people. How, we as people do discriminate against fatter people. The attitude of people who aren't considered fat is brought into the dojo. Where the ideal is thin. That fatter people aren't in shape. How possibly some could discriminate against a student student like that of the airlines and insurance companies. Or have to reject a fatter student because of insurance, like it was pointed out with having a hip replacement.

I was hoping by making issue real and valid and getting people to talk about it, for all us Aikidoka to discuss, we could be active against such discrimination of fatter people, if we are aware of it. Fat should not be a bad word. We all are fat unless we have 0 body fat. I think Aikidoka's would be extra supportive and positive in the face of this type of ridiculous discrimination that is growing stronger.
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:40 AM   #21
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Obesity

The 'epidemic' in obesity isn't just from a redefinition of the BMI. There's something going on in the U.S. that is drastically affecting the average weight; no one seems to know what it is*. For example, just look at newsreel footage of crowds from a couple of decades ago. It's amazing how thin people seem.

It's not just a matter of will power, either; statistically, diets don't work in the long run. The only thing that has been proven to get the weight off of very overweight people, and keep it off, is bariatric surgery. Not that there aren't exceptions (though even the exceptions tend to relapse after a couple of years), but statistically it takes surgery to keep weight off of someone with a tendency towards overweight.

That said, 'fat' does not necessarily equal 'out of shape.' A person's resting heart rate and B/P are much better indicators of their fitness level (and likelihood of dropping dead during training) than their appearance is.

*there are, of course, lots of theories: too much high fructose corn syrup, too much TV, fast food, etc.
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Old 10-25-2009, 02:04 AM   #22
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
The 'epidemic' in obesity isn't just from a redefinition of the BMI. There's something going on in the U.S. that is drastically affecting the average weight; no one seems to know what it is*. For example, just look at newsreel footage of crowds from a couple of decades ago. It's amazing how thin people seem.

It's not just a matter of will power, either; statistically, diets don't work in the long run. The only thing that has been proven to get the weight off of very overweight people, and keep it off, is bariatric surgery. Not that there aren't exceptions (though even the exceptions tend to relapse after a couple of years), but statistically it takes surgery to keep weight off of someone with a tendency towards overweight.

That said, 'fat' does not necessarily equal 'out of shape.' A person's resting heart rate and B/P are much better indicators of their fitness level (and likelihood of dropping dead during training) than their appearance is.

*there are, of course, lots of theories: too much high fructose corn syrup, too much TV, fast food, etc.
I'm no expert, but my understanding is that it has to do largely with lifestyle and diet is a major factor to that. Do you mean perhaps that "diets" tend to be momentary adjustments in eating habit? ...I had a nutrition prof. who ranted about diets because many people seem to think they can just change their diet for a while when they should be looking at their diet as a life-time endeavor. Everyone I've spoken to, from doctors to nutrition specialists, say the same thing: eat well and be active and your average person will not be obese.
So, all that said, could you point me to a good reference describing what you're talking about?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-25-2009, 09:02 AM   #23
lbb
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
This whole thread came about last month when I had a discussion with another martial artist who said fat/obese people take Aikido. We started off talking about much of what I already posted. I was insulted by his comment. I am not fat or obese. I am not out of shape or in great shape.
Well, that's certainly not very nice, but you do have the power to not let it affect you. Like the old story of the monk carrying the woman across the stream -- you can choose to set these things down, or you can choose to keep carrying them with you. Unless this other martial artist is following you around and bending your ear on the subject, it is your choice if you don't put it down and walk away from it.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
It just another jab at Aikido, its all other arts only have dangerously thin people.
That sentence makes no sense to me. Are you suffering from the delusion that all other martial arts only have "dangerously thin people" practicing them, or do you think (erroneously, I believe) that others suffer from this delusion?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Then it got me thinking, and I start to look around at what I didn't see before in the dojo. The discrimination towards fatter people. How, we as people do discriminate against fatter people. The attitude of people who aren't considered fat is brought into the dojo. Where the ideal is thin. That fatter people aren't in shape. How possibly some could discriminate against a student student like that of the airlines and insurance companies. Or have to reject a fatter student because of insurance, like it was pointed out with having a hip replacement.
Again with the airlines and insurance companies. If you want to use this in support of the slippery-slope argument that you're clearly trying to make, you need to produce evidence that such discrimination on the part of airlines and insurance companies actually exists.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I was hoping by making issue real and valid and getting people to talk about it, for all us Aikidoka to discuss, we could be active against such discrimination of fatter people, if we are aware of it.
But which issue? As I pointed out to you already, you're talking about at least three different issues, and you simply can't attack them all at once, using the same set of weapons. Choose your battle, then pick your weapons and rally your troops, then have at it.
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Old 10-25-2009, 09:49 AM   #24
Buck
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Re: Obesity

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
The 'epidemic' in obesity isn't just from a redefinition of the BMI. There's something going on in the U.S. that is drastically affecting the average weight; no one seems to know what it is*. For example, just look at newsreel footage of crowds from a couple of decades ago. It's amazing how thin people seem.
Just a chance to explain my smoking theory

One theory of mine is people stopped smoking. Here is how it works, it is a known fact people who smoke when they stop gain weight. They replace the oral habitual habit of smoking with another of eating. The metabolism (and endoctrine system among others) is also altered when a person smokes, possibly due to the tobacco and the other stuff in a cig. Smoking also alters your appetite, to be less. Smoking can be a substitute for boredom eating, and snacking. You smoke rather than eat. Smoking was a huge part of the American culture for hundreds of years. In the last, say, 20 years we made a concerted effort to stop smoking, like the 1900's did with stopping chewing tobacco. Smoking is far more dangerous to the health than eating and thus became a substitute (better one in my opinion because smoking is highly toxic). I really don't suggest smoking for weight loss because it is so dangerous and if you stop you will gain all the weight back, if smoking doesn't kill you first.

There are other reasons of course why people gain weight and to point of obesity are things like genetics, disease and psychological reasons.

I think Aikido is a healthy lifestyle, the problem I see in Aikido regularly is the added calories from beer drinking.

I think we put too much stress on the "ideal" weight, and by doing so it does great psychological damage.
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Old 10-25-2009, 10:38 AM   #25
Voitokas
 
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Re: Obesity

Aikido is one of the few arenas in which I have never seen people make fun of others' weight. Aikido is a vigorous art, and aikidoka are pretty fit, relative to most people on the street. Yes, people in general are less in shape than they had ought to be; yes, people who are heavy are looked down upon much like people with lung cancer are, because people see obesity and lung cancer as stemming from personal choice. As far as aikido is concerned, though, I don't see the issue? Aikido dojos are generally pretty accepting environments, and aikido can only help get and keep people in shape...

I am not an expert
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