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Old 10-20-2009, 08:07 AM   #126
MM
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
OK, how 'bout some tabletop aiki. Take a chopstick. Sit down at the dinner table. Put one end of the chopstick on the table and hold the other end with your fingertip with the hand and arm reaching straight out. Let the weight of your arm press down slightly while reaching out holding the chopstick vertical. Now, keeping that contact pressure, allow your arm to simply fall naturally to the table top without changing anything. You might think that the chopstick will simply topple toward you -- but no, it flies AWAY from you as its contact is sheared way from the surface and the applied moment rotates and translates it when released.

You never collided with the chopstick, but you never lost your connection to it, either. You joined with it -- actually helping to keeping it upright initially, and then, well -- you remained joined in not keeping it upright...

Now imagine a chopstick with several flexible taped joints trying stand vertically under its own weight. The weakest of those joints becomes the tabletop. Done dynamically, and well-oriented that applied joint failure in shear will remove the base weight holding friction for lateral support, like lifting the other end of a long rope off the ground by applying a wave to the rope.

That's what Shioda is doing.
I disagree. Your explanation doesn't touch upon aiki at all. Jujutsu, maybe. But no aiki. at all. anywhere in your description. Your whole example is not supported by any facts of aiki. At best, you're delving into jujutsu theory. All well and good on that level, perhaps, but not aiki.

It then follows that if Shioda had aiki, your supposition that you know what Shioda is doing is wrong.

But hey, if you really want to keep telling people that you know what you're doing, I'll start sending them down your way. We can add you, Erick Mead, to the list of people who know IT and aiki. And since you had to have learned it somewhere, we can add your teachers to that list, too. Just name those people who have trained you in IT and aiki. I'd love to add you and your teachers to the list, so people can stop by and start learning. Or have you learned IT and aiki all on your own and your teachers haven't contributed to your skills? There's a lot of people out there really hyped by IT and aiki. I'm sure there's quite a few in the Florida area that would love to train with you to get the goods.

But, hey, there's also this to consider ... Bill Gleason, your senior in the ASU, who has, what, over 30-40 years of training is now training with Dan Harden to learn aiki. Rob Liberti, who has many years of training, is learning aiki from Dan. I'd bet that other people that are your seniors are training to learn aiki, but you *know* what Shioda is doing and can explain it easily.

On any other forum you'd have been labeled and banned. Especially on this outbreak:

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
That's -- oh -- about five times now -- so let's just get this over wiht once and for all, shall we, -- because there really is no other way to do it.

You ... lie. Lying. Liar. Falsehood. Untruth. Mendacity. Get a thesaurus, look it up. A big fat whopper. Link a post where I said that -- rather than your twisting of attempts to get you to ever lay out specific mechanics of your "push tests." (Mark Murray did more on that score in one video than you have in numerous posts). I've challenged you three times to prove your falsehood on that one now with no response. And if not -- Please, as a favor, keep your words in your own mouth.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:14 AM   #127
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Hi Erick. I think I understand what you write. But I think you glossed over the hard part… the making of contact and the ‘joining’ part itself. In your example it was taken as a given. “Drop your weight on it”. The sliding-down-a-potential that you describe is pretty clear I think. But what does it have to do with the changed body and how you manage energy internally? It doesn’t fit. Your example (which is true and works) is truly passive. I do not expect the ‘blending’ due to ‘aiki’ is passive at all. Sagawa makes it clear it is a technique. Does doing aiki on an inanimate object have any meaning? If it is only what you write; I say we have all figured that out already and can summarize it like this: Follow the slip path. Maintain your structure.

You describe the ‘joining’ part by allowing your weight to go thru the chopstick. Let’s call that making/sharing a closed groundpath circuit through the chopstick. I can kind of see how this may result in a sticky feeling if I was the chopstick..you know; by virtue of the fact that there is a now a resistance to having this ‘circuit’ opened. That sticky feeling is relevant to the aiki technique; but I think other bigger parts are missing. Your way was passive; it was relaxing the arms weight. At this point; I think and expect the magic of aiki technique is more about how you actually train and mediate your own body; and how this enables a new dynamic of making this joining. Not a passive ‘weight drop’ like you say. But, frankly, I am out of my depth here and feel I should really keep quiet.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:44 AM   #128
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Deleted ....
Have fune stumbling around in the dark. Erick
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-20-2009 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:48 AM   #129
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Re: Blending with the attack.

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
There's a lot of people out there really hyped by IT and aiki. I'm sure there's quite a few in the Florida area that would love to train with you to get the goods.
I can agree 100% with that statement.
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:06 PM   #130
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Aikido is about circles, spheres and spirals. Getting off line doesn't necessarily mean moving side to side. There is also up and down and any direction along a circle, sphere or spiral.

A student starts out with big external circles, spheres and spirals to understand the effects the movements have on uke. Then he/she progresses to ever smaller and smaller circles, spheres and spirals until the circles, spheres and spirals are internal to himself/herself.

You use the circles, spheres and spirals, whether their large external to your body or small internal to your body, to avoid the attack, get off the line of attack or blend with the attack, however you name it.

If someone is throwing a punch to your face and his reach is longer than yours, you don't stand there and receive the punch in the face, you move to avoid the fist hitting your face, you get off the line of the fist hitting your face, you blend with the oncoming fist.

On any video watch the directions that uke moves. That will tell you the direction of the circle, sphere or spiral of nage's movement.

David

Last edited by dps : 10-20-2009 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:36 PM   #131
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Re: Blending with the attack.

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Aikido is about circles, spheres and spirals. Getting off line doesn't necessarily mean moving side to side. There is also up and down and any direction along a circle, sphere or spiral.

A student starts out with big external circles, spheres and spirals to understand the effects the movements have on uke. Then he/she progresses to ever smaller and smaller circles, spheres and spirals until the circles, spheres and spirals are internal to himself/herself.

You use the circles, spheres and spirals, whether their large external to your body or small internal to your body, to avoid the attack, get off the line of attack or blend with the attack, however you name it.

If someone is throwing a punch to your face and his reach is longer than yours, you don't stand there and receive the punch in the face, you move to avoid the fist hitting your face, you get off the line of the fist hitting your face, you blend with the oncoming fist.

On any video watch the directions that uke moves. That will tell you the direction of the circle, sphere or spiral of nage's movement.

David
Also considering Ellis's book " Hidden in Plain Sight", big external circles, spheres and spirals is easier for uke to start to condition his/hers body for ukemi.

David
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:39 PM   #132
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I disagree. Your explanation doesn't touch upon aiki at all. Jujutsu, maybe. But no aiki. at all. anywhere in your description. Your whole example is not supported by any facts of aiki.
By all means, state the facts of aiki showing that I am wrong and that this example is not an illustration in simplified mechanical terms of aiki. As you know there is a biological component, but the biological component is acting upon and according to the mechanism I illustrate. Since I specifically fit that to the issues of "joining" and "blending" previously made a part of the discussion, my post was plainly topical. If wrong, then show us a similar counterexample of your facts ...

I have only ever asked for facts and definitions to clarify discussion, nothing more.

I look forward to your response.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-20-2009, 02:17 PM   #133
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Erick. I think I understand what you write. But I think you glossed over the hard part… the making of contact and the ‘joining' part itself.
If you would wrestle a bit with the way shear is created or occurs it would seem quite simple. Perpendicular opposite stress. Shear. To start with -- let shear occur passively -- like scissors meet and slide tangentially in opposition, taking up all the tensile or compressive slack in doing so. Sword work (kiri-otoshi, suriage, and surotioshi, for starters) is irreplaceable in providing this "feel" of what you are looking for. Then, more directly, you can be initiating the shear by an oscillation (or wave, essentially) into the connection as it occurs. Then you can reduce that to the essential shear stresses of the action, without all the overt motion. All the aiki-taiso are designed with that basic thought in mind -- to build the sense of how moving shear or shear stress in the body actuates it -- yours as well as his.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
In your example it was taken as a given. "Drop your weight on it". The sliding-down-a-potential that you describe is pretty clear I think.
"Slide" implies a passiveness that is not present. If it doesn't fly out like a watermelon seed between wet fingers, you didn't do it right -- and will not see the relationship to what Shioda is doing.... It is much more energetic and catastrophically sudden. A leveraged attempt at some thing similar, would be to spring it back against the table, between thumb and forefinger, and then lift slightly to release the sprung column. In the levered example, it rotates from the top where you are levering it, and slips at the base, and in the sheared example it rotates from the shear point at the base as it slips. In leverage, the perceived point of action is located at the perceived point of contact. In shear, as you can see in this very simple comparison, the perceived point of action is remote from the perceived point of contact. "I am already behind him," I believe O Sensei said.

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
But what does it have to do with the changed body and how you manage energy internally? It doesn't fit.
It has to do with substituting the action of shear for the action of joint leverage -- throughout the the body. Octopus do it all the time, you can too. You just have learned to fall back on the bony structures as levers and fulcrums, instead of the body/limbs as continuous structure operating in progressive shears which can actuate both compressive and tensile stress simultaneously.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Your example (which is true and works) is truly passive.
No it isn't -- you dropped your arm. Not passive at all. Most simplified examples are more static than not, it is unavoidable. But Shioda's action is as plain an illustration of the more energetic dynamics of the same exact mechanism as one could hope to show on video.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
I do not expect the ‘blending' due to ‘aiki' is passive at all. Sagawa makes it clear it is a technique. Does doing aiki on an inanimate object have any meaning?
Yes -- if the same mechanism provokes certain reflexive reactions in a living human body amplifying the effects outside the parameters of voluntary action. Done one way it is aiki-age (extensor reflex -- sankyo, for a vanilla example), done another way it is aikisage -- (flexor reflex -- nikkyo, for another example). But those are training modes, and if you grab my wrist with a will -- I can pop uke up or drop uke down by the same mechanism that those use. The chopstick is compressive shear buckling but tensile shear buckling works as well... like a wave in a rope.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
If it is only what you write; I say we have all figured that out already and can summarize it like this: Follow the slip path. Maintain your structure.
No more like "connect in or generate a shear, buckling structure and then do whatever you darn well like because there is no more structure standing in your way..."

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
You describe the ‘joining' part by allowing your weight to go thru the chopstick. Let's call that making/sharing a closed groundpath circuit through the chopstick. I don't disagree with that. I can kind of see how this may result in a sticky feeling if I was the chopstick..you know; by virtue of the fact that there is a now a resistance to having this ‘circuit' opened. That sticky feeling is relevant to the aiki technique; but I think other bigger parts are missing. Your way was passive; it was relaxing the arms weight.
I could just as easily have told you "let it go" left. right or back toward you -- but those are more difficult to see how to accomplish, because they have to be slightly "accented" (dare I say, with some "intent" -- whereas my example allows the body's own structure and gravity show you the way. With a live partner you also could pop him up, as much as drop him down and out , and it is the same mechanism -- but while the "passive" rope-lifting wave model holds for aiki-age - the sensitivity of the kinesthetic structural system in triggering extensor reflexes comes into play. That is part of what I read from what little Sagawa will say of his "technique" Asagao is at the heart of that -- which he DOES mention explicitly -- but also furitama.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
At this point; I think and expect the magic of aiki technique is more about how you actually train and mediate your own body; and how this enables a new dynamic of making this joining.
I don't disagree, and the actuation of your body in this way must be exactly the same as the actuation of the opponent's body, such that moving him is not essentially different from moving yourself . But -- without a simple (and mechanically correct) image for your structural intuition to operate on, you have no objective guide -- and are hostage to the vague vocabulary and personal assurances (however,well-intentioned or true) rather than honing and trusting your own perceptions -- for what they objectively are -- rather than what you or anyone else have subjectively assumed they were. "Seat of the pants" flying kills people. Objective reference is the only sure measure. Senses don't lie -- but they are easily misinterpreted in shifting frames of reference. And as I showed you above, when we change from leverage to shear as our operating mode -- we changed the frame of reference -- right along with the center of rotations.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-21-2009, 02:49 AM   #134
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Hello
I really think you are discussing about two different things using the same example.

Of course blending happens in lots of martial arts. It fact this is pretty much the essence of every one time counter.
I includes leaving the attack of you opponent largely undisturbed, absorbing his energy.
Of course you can join physically or mentally but the predicate for one time counter is more a mental blending rather than a physical.

This is not especially at aiki trade mark.

You all know the ken awase, which are blending practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJBebwFJHgw

Look at the first ken awase and look at that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txt_tRdoo3Y

Surely it is very obvious that it produces the same result using the same method.
On the same token, it is true that the last vid focuses on the making it happen and the aiki-ken is much more about the fashion in which you do it/get there. So you can say that there is a world of difference
You can look at it either way and none of them is more right that the other or antinomic.

When you have blade contact the same does apply. The blending aspect is the same
You can see as a technique oriented exercise or focus on the aspect of strength with no strength/fencing with the strength of your body/proper body-mechanic and leverage because when fencing any application of active antagonistic force can be turned against you much more easily than with open hand.
In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrc4EcfyQCw there is no need fro strength

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:03 AM   #135
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Re: Blending with the attack.

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
<snip>
Phillippe, the kind of blending being talked about by D. Orange, Mike S., and Dan Harden etc has nothing to do with the vids you showed.
The blending happens "in your body," and has little to do with timing etc.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:36 AM   #136
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Re: Blending with the attack.

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Phillippe, the kind of blending being talked about by D. Orange, Mike S., and Dan Harden etc has nothing to do with the vids you showed.
The blending happens "in your body," and has little to do with timing etc.
Hello
in the body ?????
so if i get you right kemosubi no tachi and the awase is not blending
then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgUFd...eature=related

what do you mean then ?

The physical expresion of blending is always going to be taking some sort of mesure and distance. the end result of that blending is not really relevant to the blending in itself.
you can't blend on you own, you alway blend with something.
and it is as much mental as it physical.

philippe

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:49 AM   #137
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post

The physical expresion of blending is always going to be taking some sort of measure and distance. the end result of that blending is not really relevant to the blending in itself.
you can't blend on you own, you alway blend with something.
and it is as much mental as it physical.
True,
all of those do factor in to a degree... and no one is arguing that blending is anything but a physical and mental process... just that it's not the obvious movement being shown in the clips you posted.

The blending you're talking about? Once you have I.S(killz & strength). it happens at the point of contact. Timing augments it sure, but you can do it without timing as well
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:03 AM   #138
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello
in the body ?????
so if i get you right kemosubi no tachi and the awase is not blending
then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgUFd...eature=related

what do you mean then ?

The physical expresion of blending is always going to be taking some sort of mesure and distance. the end result of that blending is not really relevant to the blending in itself.
you can't blend on you own, you alway blend with something.
and it is as much mental as it physical.

philippe
I look at it like there are two types of "blending": jujutsu and aiki. What you posted, to me, is the jujutsu type of blending. It *requires* physical body movement where timing, where and how one steps, body placement, etc is involved. It can be a very soft, subtle approach to techniques. A very good skill to have and develop. But it isn't aiki.

Aiki happens, as Rob John stated, at the moment of contact. The blend happens there, and not with a physical step or a timed movement. Ueshiba notes in one of his interviews, there is no timing in aiki. As Peter Goldsbury pointed out in one of his TIE columns, working on Ushiro techniques was hazardous to uke and not necessarily because of Ueshiba's physical movement. Aiki. The pinnacle of "blending".
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