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Old 10-18-2009, 08:28 PM   #26
Marc Abrams
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Hello Mr. Abrams,
Please call me Rob (Robert is OK but when I hear that I know my mom has busted me and I'm in trouble).

Watching Imaizumi Shizuo on the friendship/aiki expo DVDs it is clear he is very enthusiastic about his training and no doubt a good time is had by all.

While I'm not certain I read an invitation in your message don't be surprised if I happen to show up sometime uninvited and take liberties of your hospitality! I've done worse ... I would not hold my breath though since I'm on a short leash for now.

If I had a dojo you, and anyone, would be most welcome to come any time.

Thanks
Rob:

His dojo and my dojo always have an open-door policy. You definitely have a direct invitation from me for food and drink after some excellent training! Where in CA do you train? I love to visit schools when I travel as well.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:51 PM   #27
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
If we don't know whos who, much less how IP, IS, aiki, etc is expressed in that art just what kind of chance do we have of making a decent choice?
I don't know Mike... it seems simpler to me. I suspect decisions get more difficult as the level one is talking about gets more sophisticated.
I look around and see someone who can do something I cannot do. I find ways to train with that person until I can do it, then I look for more folks. I already have a back log so I don't see running out anytime soon. It would be different if I were worried about making the best possible choice... but so many other factors enter into it... access, compatibility, willingness of the teacher, all those practical factors. If I can be substantially better next year from where I am this year, it has to suffice. I have a nice network of folks who seem willing to help me with that. I'm not driven, like Sagawa was, to be the absolute best. So my field of choices is wider than otherwise.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:33 PM   #28
dps
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Here is a similar thread on an CMA forum asking who are the "Best internal guys alive today?"

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...st=0&sk=t&sd=a

David
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:09 AM   #29
jss
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
As I mentioned on another thread, I find it remarkable the focus on IT/IP/IS is mainly concentrated in/on the US. When I read the list, with the exception of two instructors, the remaining individuals all live in the US and the majority of them rarely visit Europe. In fact, no European resident is noted on that list, or African, Russian, South American etc. for that matter.
I did a quick search and apparently a bit over one out of three members on this forum are from the US (To be more precise: the 'Members' Quick Link lists 12755 users; search on country 'United States' and you get 4510 matches.)
One of the most important factors in all this is (imho) that the number of native English speakers with a specific hobby, having an internet connection and interested in discussing their hobby on a forum, is large enough to sustain an online communities. If you look at the number of native Dutch speakers (ca. 22 million people vs. the 309-400 million for English(1) [both en.wikipedia.org]), it's just a whole different ball game.
Checking out German and French martial arts forums might be good idea.

(1) I mean, the margin of error on that number is more than four times the number of native Dutch speakers.
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:53 AM   #30
Mike Sigman
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Here is a similar thread on an CMA forum asking who are the "Best internal guys alive today?"

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...st=0&sk=t&sd=a
That's a classic example of a old Empty Flower thread. No substance and it sounds like a lot of 13-year old boys sitting on the street corner impressing each other with a lot of ill-informed talk about cars, how to drive, big engines, and so forth. Note the slander of someone (in this case Liang Shouyu and his cancer-survivor daughter) by someone hiding behind a pseudonym. Classically classless and that's the sort of behavior that brands everyone on the forum because they tolerate it.

My 2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:34 AM   #31
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Hi
Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
As I mentioned on another thread, I find it remarkable the focus on IT/IP/IS is mainly concentrated in/on the US.
...
In fact, no European resident is noted on that list, or African, Russian, South American etc. for that matter.
... Checking out German and French martial arts forums might be good idea.
IT/IP/IS is no issue in german martial arts forums. At least not in forums concerned with Japanese martial arts.

I learned the vocbulary here on aikiweb. An I don't know whether there are teachers over here in Europe, teaching something, you would call IS or IP.

Carsten
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:06 AM   #32
MM
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
The first rule of IT club is don't talk about IT club - IHTBF

The short list (not in any particular order):
Mike Sigman
Dan Harden
Ark
Toby Threadgill
Kudora Tetsusan
Ushiro Kenji
Donald J. Angier
Ikeda Hiroshi
From RSF, Ashe added Master Sam F.S. Chin. Not sure, but I think he teaches in NY?

Mark
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:29 AM   #33
ashe
 
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
From RSF, Ashe added Master Sam F.S. Chin. Not sure, but I think he teaches in NY?

Mark
hey there Mark, just thought i'd drop in to add a bit more depth to why my Sifu's name should be mentioned. (sorry if i'm a bit spammy here, but i can't pass up a such a good opportunity to plug my Sifu)

a quick bit of background - he spent most of his life up to about 32 as a fighter. challenge matches etc. but also has a verifiable full contact record (selengore state heavyweight kickboxing champion 1976, won all his fights in under 40 seconds). as Mark pointed out he lives in upstate NY but he travels all over the world teaching.

the family art, I Liq Chuan is an internal Chinese martial art which is based on Zen and tai chi principles. he's been teaching around the world now for the last 10 years or so, and similar to Dan Hardens method, our stuff is based on series of drills (both solo and two person) meant to train physical sensitivities and develop the ligaments tendons and bones. (in other words IT).

although ILC is it's own system it's very lean (basic exercises, spinning and sticky hands, there, you're done), it could be studied easily as an adjunct by those looking specifically to develop IT for their aikido (in fact we have a few aikidoka who train exactly for that purpose).

i'll just post two videos in case you may not have seen any of our stuff yet. the first is just your basic "demo clip" of him in action with some students (after the 1st minute) but that won't really tell you much so i'll include a second clip which will be a bit more like watching paint dry, but it's out method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk1v4RXsH8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_eGF_5S_ek

since i don't want to derail your topic, if anyone is interested in asking more questions specific to what i've posted, please PM.
(i have a TON of clips up here if you're interested)
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:07 AM   #34
dps
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Since we are going outside Aikido to find the internal strength that Aikido has lost,what better place to find people online who teach internal strengtht then a CMA forum. I have posted "List of people who can teach IT to Aikidoka" on two CMA forums;

http://www.emptyflower.net/forums/in...showtopic=7526

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6700

David
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:08 PM   #35
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Since we are going outside Aikido to find the internal strength that Aikido has lost,what better place to find people online who teach internal strengtht then a CMA forum. I have posted "List of people who can teach IT to Aikidoka" on two CMA forums;

http://www.emptyflower.net/forums/in...showtopic=7526

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6700

David
Is there an emoticon for laughing till you pass out?

Good luck with that. I have met lineage holders, champions, and senior students who write really...really well, and they know all the lingo; upon crossing hands; they were either nothing greater than "good jujutsu men", or were laughably inept, and anywhere in between. I swear one guy I met (who was a lineage holder) my wife could probably take.
There are just as many who will argue what internal is in the ICMA as anywhere else. There are plenty of "famous" ICMA teachers who posses nothing more than good fighting skills with some basic internal components.
Of the good ones who -are- powerhouses how much you want to bet you will ever get the goods without a long, protected tenure? All the same cautions apply
Dan

Edit:
It's still worth the effort to get out and feel and check people out, though the process is, well...a process. But most forums are basically the same.

Last edited by DH : 10-19-2009 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:11 PM   #36
Mike Sigman
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Since we are going outside Aikido to find the internal strength that Aikido has lost,what better place to find people online who teach internal strengtht then a CMA forum.
Oh stoppit. What legitimate "martial-arts forum" is full of guys who hide behind pseudonyms and chatter and bicker all day? Ever notice how on, say, AikiWeb, E-Budo, QiJin, and other forums, a "martial-artist" is considered to be someone who can sign his real name to the things that he says? Can you imagine a legit martial artist, like Ueshiba, Chen Xiao Wang, Luo De Xu, Shioda, etc., etc., using BS names to post on some trash-talking fantasy forum that has a history of constant bickering, split-ups, and so on?

If you're going to use fantasy and role-playing guys as a place to find legitimate I.S. skills, then you have no common-sense criteria. And like I said, I've felt the "I.S" of some of the guys who are on that forum... we're talking about different things. Go back through their archives and see if you can ever find a legitimate discussion of "how to" or "what's involved" in i.s. development.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:14 PM   #37
akiy
 
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Hi folks,

Let's keep criticisms of other websites off of here, please. I don't think such discussions are necessary here.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:30 PM   #38
MM
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post
hey there Mark, just thought i'd drop in to add a bit more depth to why my Sifu's name should be mentioned. (sorry if i'm a bit spammy here, but i can't pass up a such a good opportunity to plug my Sifu)
If I had known you'd post, I would have saved my short one.

Seriously, thanks for the better, more detailed post. I've heard some great things about Sam Chin.
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:29 PM   #39
ashe
 
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
If I had known you'd post, I would have saved my short one.

Seriously, thanks for the better, more detailed post. I've heard some great things about Sam Chin.
most welcome, and thanks for the warm welcome to your forum!

tiger at the gate
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discipline, concentration & wisdom
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:37 PM   #40
Ernesto Lemke
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
IT/IP/IS is no issue in german martial arts forums. At least not in forums concerned with Japanese martial arts.
I learned the vocbulary here on aikiweb. An I don't know whether there are teachers over here in Europe, teaching something, you would call IS or IP.
As far as I'm aware, the situation in Holland is much the same way. But maybe Joep will shed a different light on that. Akuzawa Sensei visited Holland a few years back but I don't know which group (or person maybe) made the arrangements for that. I do know (of) several aikidoka who went there but whether they still practice what they where exposed to or kept in touch with Aunkai, I don't know.
Maybe Rob could shed some light on this.

Far as vocabulary goes, the 'worth listening to' posters of Aikiweb and QiJin deserve the/my credit for that. I'm just trying to get a foot in the door...
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:53 PM   #41
Mike Sigman
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Let's keep criticisms of other websites off of here, please. I don't think such discussions are necessary here.
Good heavens... it's the way they talk to each other on that forum. My point was more like Dan's.... I'm astounded that anyone would try to find legitimate information in questionable sources; good information is simply too hard to get. Take a quick look into the archives of public forums for in-depth information on "how to" and you'll find that at least publicly, AikiWeb has more useable "how to" information than E-Budo, Aikido Journal, Uechi Ryu, various Taiji forums, and so on. Just going to a "CMA forum" is like picking out some neighborhood Kung Fu School and assuming they have the goods because they play around with "CMA". It simply makes no sense.

In several cases in my training career, I've had teachers mention "they either figure it out or they don't" or after showing something, saying "understand". The idea of "Steal this technique" from Ueshiba actually means "figure out how I did the mechanics; use your noodle". In other words, you have to do a lot of thinking, analysing, and smart evaluating. Going to a well-known chatter forum for serious information is not really good thinking.

I've got more time studying Japanese martial arts (Judo, Karate, Aikido) than I do in actively studying Chinese martial arts, so I can make the credible observation that good Japanese teachers indicate, just as often as Chinese ones do, that you have to think. Chatter doesn't get anything done. "My teacher" and "my style" don't get anything done. The ones who know something you can spot pretty quickly, once you get a foot in the door. But you gotta think.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:55 PM   #42
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

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Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post
most welcome, and thanks for the warm welcome to your forum!
Hey now!!
Look at you here on aikiweb.

Ashe, I think you should consider advertising one of Sam's seminars in the "Non Aikido martial traditions" section of the site you are on right now. While not directly related, I think many people would find Sam -very- interesting.
Looks like I will finally get down to train with him this winter.


Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:32 PM   #43
Mike Sigman
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Re: Who's got Internal Training and can and will teach it?

Ack.... I can't stand it and I have to say something: It's KURODA Tetsusan, not Kudora. And he's really good. What he explicitly teaches, I don't know, though. When your name is Heinz, you usually don't give away the recipe to the 57 sauce.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:45 PM   #44
Rob Watson
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Re: Who's got Internal Training and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Ack.... I can't stand it and I have to say something: It's KURODA Tetsusan, not Kudora. And he's really good. What he explicitly teaches, I don't know, though. When your name is Heinz, you usually don't give away the recipe to the 57 sauce.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Ack! My bad. I never forget a face but names ... no so good. Really, I know better. Sorry. I'll ask if I can edit the original post ...
Thanks

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-19-2009, 05:11 PM   #45
Rob Watson
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Re: Who's got Internal Training and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Ack! My bad. I never forget a face but names ... no so good. Really, I know better. Sorry. I'll ask if I can edit the original post ...
Thanks
Kuroda Tetsuzan. I messed up both names ... sheesh. 'What a maroon'.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-19-2009, 05:19 PM   #46
eyrie
 
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
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most welcome, and thanks for the warm welcome to your forum!
Took your time mate...

Ignatius
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Old 10-19-2009, 05:42 PM   #47
Rob Watson
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post
hey there Mark, just thought i'd drop in to add a bit more depth to why my Sifu's name should be mentioned. (sorry if i'm a bit spammy here, but i can't pass up a such a good opportunity to plug my Sifu)

a quick bit of background - he spent most of his life up to about 32 as a fighter. challenge matches etc. but also has a verifiable full contact record (selengore state heavyweight kickboxing champion 1976, won all his fights in under 40 seconds). as Mark pointed out he lives in upstate NY but he travels all over the world teaching.

the family art, I Liq Chuan is an internal Chinese martial art which is based on Zen and tai chi principles. he's been teaching around the world now for the last 10 years or so, and similar to Dan Hardens method, our stuff is based on series of drills (both solo and two person) meant to train physical sensitivities and develop the ligaments tendons and bones. (in other words IT).

although ILC is it's own system it's very lean (basic exercises, spinning and sticky hands, there, you're done), it could be studied easily as an adjunct by those looking specifically to develop IT for their aikido (in fact we have a few aikidoka who train exactly for that purpose).

i'll just post two videos in case you may not have seen any of our stuff yet. the first is just your basic "demo clip" of him in action with some students (after the 1st minute) but that won't really tell you much so i'll include a second clip which will be a bit more like watching paint dry, but it's out method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk1v4RXsH8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_eGF_5S_ek

since i don't want to derail your topic, if anyone is interested in asking more questions specific to what i've posted, please PM.
(i have a TON of clips up here if you're interested)
Cetainly looks very interseting. Keep those vids coming!

Seminar coming to Oakland California the first week of November! http://www.stillnessinmotion.com/index.php?pg=ILiqChuan

Thanks

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:45 PM   #48
JangChoe
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Re: Who's got Internal Training and can and will teach it?

There's a couple of Li Tai Liang's students in the Bay Area that has it and tries to teach it. I would also add Chen Zhong Hua in Canada. I'm sure there's more hidden in the pockets of the US.
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:48 PM   #49
Mike Sigman
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Re: Who's got IT and can and will teach it?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Cetainly looks very interseting. Keep those vids coming!

Seminar coming to Oakland California the first week of November! http://www.stillnessinmotion.com/index.php?pg=ILiqChuan

Thanks
I think the second clip was interesting. What Sam Chin was doing versus what people seemed to think he was saying and doing was intriguing. Sam Chin, in my personal opinion, has some relatively good stuff. Just the sort of stuff that Aikido people, Taiji people, and so on, should learn. Is it unique or astoundingly good in terms of I.S.? I don't think so. Then again, to voice my (and yours) opinion is good.... maybe more will be shown.

I could be wrong, of course, and I invite Ashe Higgs to come and meet up and show me the superior way. After all, I am just a student and I will enjoy learning from him.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:49 PM   #50
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Re: Who's got Internal Training and can and will teach it?

Hello Ashe,
re: Master Sam Chin in Russia. May 2005
Thank you for posting the vid. I love the way Sam moves.
That smooth manipulation at 1:36 was wicked. I like the flick-chuck at the end of that. Not sure of the technical name for that.^ ^
Also; later, at 1:42 the reactions he gets are something else. Doesn't look like Sam moved much but was very disconcerting for the other guy. Taking balance at a touch, eh? How long in till you can start learning to do that?
ILC looks very interesting and very powerful. You guys must have a lot of fun.

Cheers,
Josh

p.s. Rob Watson, If you guys are serious about this list; if I understand the consensus it sounds like perhaps you should consider adding Howard Popkin and Bosco Baek. OK! Good luck.
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