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Old 10-17-2009, 08:56 AM   #126
Mike Sigman
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6656
They, are watching -our- discussions
You won't do much better there, than here as far as who actually has something-as opposed to people just talking your ears off about what they think they "know."
The smart guys over there are even MORE jaded than people here. Some have been all over the world, and have trained with Internal power, master-level teachers, others with high level DR and aikido teachers and have seen the majority of their fellow MA'ers ...miss it. In general most -of them-are students and teachers of the internal Chinese arts and they argue about what constitutes "internal power" all the time.
Every once in a great while there is some interesting discussion.

As always IHTBF includes every supposed amateur and expert you can find. Don't trust in single sources get out there and compare and work on you.
At one time I'd met a number of the people who posted a lot on Empty Flower, before they had their hugely childish, name-calling break-up and part of them became Rum Soaked Fist (a telling choice of names, eh?). I.e., I actually "felt" a lot of people who you point out as "have been all over the world, and have trained with Internal power, master-level teachers, others with high level DR and aikido teachers and have seen the majority of their fellow MA'ers ...miss it." I've spent a lot of time in martial-arts and read a ton of credentials and yet most of these people I've met can't perform simple jin tests, much less move with qi and dantien. So the idea that the judgement of people on any current public martial-arts forum is something to worry about is unfounded. Name me someone on that forum you think has good qi/jin skills. Other than that, why worry about them lurking on a public discussion?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:44 AM   #127
Mike Sigman
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

I've posted this before, but here it is again, since it's relevant to the topic:

Membrane

(Extracted from the "Yi Jin Jing")

A man's body consists of the entrails, spirit, and virility internally; and
of the arms, legs, tendons, bones, and flesh externally. For example,
tendons and bones are outside the entrails, flesh is outside the tendons and
bones. Blood vessels are inside the flesh. But Qi is the dominant factor
for one's physical movement. Thus the secret for cultivating one's physical
and mental capabilities is to improve one's Qi and to invigorate one's blood
circulation. One's spirit and virility are invisible or untouchable, but
one's tendons, bones, and flesh are substantial. To cultivate internal
spirit and virility, one must start doing the practice of the substantial
parts of his body first. Therefore, one should not practice the invisible
and untouchable spirit and virility only or just practice the tendons,
bones, and flesh. The practice of one's body must go along with the
practice of one's spirit and virility. Because of this, the practice of
internal work should be done in thie sequence: Qi, membrane, tendon.

While the practice of the tendon is easy, the practice of the membrane is
difficult, and the practice of Qi is more difficult. Students must start
practicing from Qi first in order to keep Qi moving everywhere within their
bodies. The membrane will stretch automatically at the place where Qi
reaches and be as strong as tendons. If one practices tendons without doing
the practice of the membrane, the membrane will be weak. If he practices
membrane without doing the practice of Qi, his membrane and tendons will not
stretch. If he practices Qi without doing the practice of the tendon and
membrane, the Qi will not circulate smoothly within his body and his tendons
will not be strong. To achieve the practice of internal work, one must keep
doing it until his tendons and membranes stretch and become strong.
Otherwise it would be like plants on the ground without dirt.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:51 AM   #128
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

interesting convergence.
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Old 10-17-2009, 10:45 AM   #129
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
How do you know he didn't use it? How do you know he didn't view it under some other name, as part of some other concept?

Any more than I can say he *did* use it. How would I know?

I think we should be carefull of categorical statements like this. Just my thoughts...
Best,
Ron
No, Ron you ar right on this... Daito Ryu definitely is aware of fascial connection. This statement is just wrong.
- George

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:21 AM   #130
Buck
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
No, Ron you ar right on this... Daito Ryu definitely is aware of fascial connection. This statement is just wrong.
- George
George,

I would like to know more about this, can you direct me to your sourses? Which of course would prove my statement wrong.


FWIW I am not against being wrong, and gladly acknowledge that if correctly proven wrong.

Last edited by Buck : 10-17-2009 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:34 PM   #131
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
It can't be seen as an unreasonable request to ask for scientific clarification, understanding, a demystification of something, especially if it is something new, before it is declared fact, real, more than a hypothesis. This is done for all the obvious and mentioned reasons. Let me highlight a very important reason for this, it can give solid and grounded credibility. But, on the downside it can prove it otherwise.
.
Too many Rob's to keep them all straight! I, however, don't presume to claim words being but into my mouth but FWIW I am NOT asking for demystification (this word carries too many negative connotations that I do not ascribe to the ongoing discussion) and I am NOT disputing the 'fact' of the existence of the topic.

I am perfectly happy to concede the matter is on plenty firm ground based on the claims and assertions made by those that have felt it. The IHTBF claim is, in fact, the basis upon which observation and the scientific method can begin to work (science must be based on observation or is quickly devolves into something less than useless). If the IHTFB group cannot, or will not, join with the 'science' group then we 'science guys' have to join the IHTBF group and get on with IT. I'm working on that ...

As for Mr. Sigman's 'levels and understanding' and Mr. Harden's poke at it I concur more with the latter then the former. One certainly can see far while standing on top of a mountain but simply bending ones neck and looking upwards works pretty good too. The view is certainly different between the two but it is worse to walk about looking mostly at our feet.

Thanks

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:47 PM   #132
Rob Watson
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I've posted this before, but here it is again, since it's relevant to the topic:

Membrane

(Extracted from the "Yi Jin Jing")

A man's body consists of the entrails, spirit, and virility internally; and
of the arms, legs, tendons, bones, and flesh externally. For example,
tendons and bones are outside the entrails, flesh is outside the tendons and
bones. Blood vessels are inside the flesh. But Qi is the dominant factor
for one's physical movement. Thus the secret for cultivating one's physical
and mental capabilities is to improve one's Qi and to invigorate one's blood
circulation. One's spirit and virility are invisible or untouchable, but
one's tendons, bones, and flesh are substantial. To cultivate internal
spirit and virility, one must start doing the practice of the substantial
parts of his body first. Therefore, one should not practice the invisible
and untouchable spirit and virility only or just practice the tendons,
bones, and flesh. The practice of one's body must go along with the
practice of one's spirit and virility. Because of this, the practice of
internal work should be done in thie sequence: Qi, membrane, tendon.

While the practice of the tendon is easy, the practice of the membrane is
difficult, and the practice of Qi is more difficult. Students must start
practicing from Qi first in order to keep Qi moving everywhere within their
bodies. The membrane will stretch automatically at the place where Qi
reaches and be as strong as tendons. If one practices tendons without doing
the practice of the membrane, the membrane will be weak. If he practices
membrane without doing the practice of Qi, his membrane and tendons will not
stretch. If he practices Qi without doing the practice of the tendon and
membrane, the Qi will not circulate smoothly within his body and his tendons
will not be strong. To achieve the practice of internal work, one must keep
doing it until his tendons and membranes stretch and become strong.
Otherwise it would be like plants on the ground without dirt.
The above still seems consistent with my attempted summary in posy #107. The 'membrane' falls within that group belonging to the extracellular category. The distinction between what it is and how one uses it (for IT, etc) still stands awaiting clarification.

I think we can all agree that the spirit and virility parts stand further 'afield' from the basic physical 'parts' and is considerably less able to be subjected to the scientific method (at least for the time being). Nevertheless I fell compelled to inject my pittance and suggest that the concepts of intent, mental visualization of action and the purpose of ones activities may well fall into this catergory (of spirit and virility) and serve well in clarification.

Thanks

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:55 PM   #133
Mike Sigman
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
The above still seems consistent with my attempted summary in post #107.
Do you understand what the monograph is actually referring to, Rob?

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-17-2009, 01:26 PM   #134
Rob Watson
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Do you understand what the monograph is actually referring to, Rob?

Best.

Mike Sigman
Man, I'm really in a mood today! I just had so many replies that really are not fit for human consumption.

For now suffice to say, no, I have not read "Yi Jin Jing". Perhaps you would be so kind as to refer me to your favorite english translation (there seem to be countless offerings on the web, some including DVD's) so I can read up?

Thanks

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-17-2009, 01:45 PM   #135
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Do you understand what the monograph is actually referring to, Rob?

Best.

Mike Sigman
On second thought ... that is a joke right! Sometimes I'm slow like that. Since the "Yi Jin Jing" was originally written in ancient sanskrit and the original meaning has been lost all we have is kind of second rate guesses at what it really means so .... of course this is open for debate as well.

The best I can answer is I have Dr. Yang, Jwing-Mings Qigong: The secret of youth (which is his take on "Yi Jin Jing" and the bone marrow washing business), The essence of Shaolin White Crane and his DVD on the same. Hidden but not really in plain sight (behind some other stuff) and yes, I have read those materials. Perhaps you care to reiterate your comments about the utility of these materials?

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-17-2009, 02:06 PM   #136
Mike Sigman
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
On second thought ... that is a joke right! Sometimes I'm slow like that. Since the "Yi Jin Jing" was originally written in ancient sanskrit and the original meaning has been lost all we have is kind of second rate guesses at what it really means so .... of course this is open for debate as well.

The best I can answer is I have Dr. Yang, Jwing-Mings Qigong: The secret of youth (which is his take on "Yi Jin Jing" and the bone marrow washing business), The essence of Shaolin White Crane and his DVD on the same. Hidden but not really in plain sight (behind some other stuff) and yes, I have read those materials. Perhaps you care to reiterate your comments about the utility of these materials?
Well, I was just responding to your statement that what was in the monograph is consistent with something you'd already written.... indicating that you understood the monograph, as I read it. Bear in mind that I'm a very literal reader with a background in the physical sciences (as you have, also).

YJM's book is worth having because it is a best-guess translation of some very old texts (YJM did not do the translating and he didn't really give credit proplerly to the man that did it). YJM's personal interpretations are sketchy, so I don't pay much attention to them. Regardless, the descriptions in the old texts are almost all useless because of the vague and general way that they describe things. It's a case of "if you don't already know the subject, none of the descriptions means much".

Anyone who has researched the "fascia" topic back to the Neijia List days (as Dan indicates he has) knows that the topic can boringly lead nowhere in most discussions because people don't understand the full depth of the subject. As the topic is now being treated, "fascia" is being used as a variant of training that is common in Shaolin martial-arts. It (the subject of "fascia") can get so tricky, though, that there's no way to adequately discuss it in writing to people who have had no feel/demonstration of what can be done and the various approaches. Give it a few years... things will improve.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-17-2009, 02:20 PM   #137
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, I was just responding to your statement that what was in the monograph is consistent with something you'd already written.... indicating that you understood the monograph, as I read it. Bear in mind that I'm a very literal reader with a background in the physical sciences (as you have, also).

Mike Sigman
My bad. What I meant was the membrane snippet (not the monograph) and the use of the term membrane seems to fit into that category of extracellular materials that comprise the connective tissues - whether membrane=fascia I cannot tell. Not to mention my general understanding of the YJM material is a bit hazy-it has been a while. "Yi Jin Jing" <> YJM's materials notwithstanding.

My other comments are simply idle speculation (re: spirit & virility).

I can say the the hand excersizes (as described by YJM) have helped in improving my grip strength (although the practice did reinjure one of my previously broken knuckles). Word to the rest - punching really hard materials really strongly will result in something becoming broken.

If you have some reference(s) that you consider better than YJM's works ...

Thanks

Last edited by Rob Watson : 10-17-2009 at 02:26 PM.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-17-2009, 03:04 PM   #138
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Do you understand what the monograph is actually referring to, Rob?

Best.

Mike Sigman
Not to beat a dead horse ...
"Yi Jin Jing" could be considered one of the original books on IT. It could also be considered as just a physical training manual for lazy monks who are want to sit about meditating and getting stiff with poor muscle tone and really has nothing to do with IT at all.

According to YJM it is part of a method to live to be 200 years old. Not really about IT so much as general good health and longevity. Perhaps a side effect of such health practices are unusual modes of strength that could be classified at IT.

Naturally, it is plainly obvious, the missing companion book ("Xisuijing") has the secret decoder ring in which all the questions are answered to full satisfaction for all. More likely "Xisuijing" is IT and "Yi Jin Jing" is external. The real question is what ever happened to the book "Unification of internal and external" ?

Thanks

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-17-2009, 03:06 PM   #139
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post

We really have to stop using Taoism (both Chinese and Japanese arts) models, framework, structures, and language to explain martial arts feats. It is archaic, out dated, and lends itself to be tools for deception and fraud, and most of all maintaining ignorance. Dan once said, in short, recently, that he will teach what the Japanese teachers are keeping secret. Part of that secret keep is using scientific langauge and in stead using metaphysical language. [/i]
Phillip,
Before taking exception with the above quote I would like to point out something... science is a specific method which is utilized to produce theories and presumed facts which do not vary appreciably based on the opinions and wishes of the observer.
I whole-heartedly agree with your objections to the conflation of pseudo-science (pop-sci use of anatomical terminology and concepts) with "internal stuff".
However one of science's most valuable features is that it is allowed, encouraged, heck *required*, that the scientist be able to say "there is insufficient evidence to draw a conclusion".
A scientist may find theology fascinating as an intellectual exercise but when people start talking about a Higgs boson as the "god particle" a scientist has the responsibility to interject with a simple "this is an idea which, however tantalizing, is not presently supported by the evidence".

And yet.. despite the very laudable interjections you have made on this thread (i.e. the "may I see the peer-reviewed verifiable evidence for these pop-sci notions regarding internal power") the above quote is something which I (as a scientist) need to take objection to.
"We really have to stop using Taoism (both Chinese and Japanese arts) models, framework, structures, and language to explain martial arts feats."

If evidence is insufficient to elevate (I use the term in a knowing biased manner) a field of study or inquiry to the level of reproducible, verifiable, experimental inquiry.. then we must not compromise science by attempting to include that which manifestly, by science's own rules, is not a suitable subject of inquiry.
If someone is talking about "the fascia of God" then science needs to say "this is not something science has anything to say about, other than it seems incompatible with our present understanding of cosmology".
The scientist does NOT need to say "well we need to stop talking about God in theological terms and use more anatomical terminology.. Let's also discuss the cerebrum of God and his vascular network".
The scientist should say "this is not science, despite the inclusion of the term *fascia*, it doesn't meet the evidential standards of scientific inquiry". Period.

Utilizing Daoist metaphors and cosmology is NOT science. It's not supposed to be.
And trying to dispense with the cosmology and terms in favor of "science" impoverishes culture UNTIL such time as the subject under consideration (internal martial arts in this case) can be investigated by scientific methods.

Yes, call people to account for trying to conflate science and archiac stuff (they are trying to have their mystic cake and scientifically derive nutrition from it).

But please DON'T suggest flensing a beloved tradition because it is not what it is not.

Gongfu (and whatever the JMA equivalent for this idea is) is not about science. And until science can provide a better alternative ( like it has done in biology, neuroscience, physics, medicine etc.) then leave gongfu for the people who love it *on it's own terms*!.
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Old 10-17-2009, 03:12 PM   #140
Mike Sigman
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Not to mention my general understanding of the YJM material is a bit hazy-it has been a while. "Yi Jin Jing" <> YJM's materials notwithstanding.
The Yi Jin Jing (Tendon Changing Classic) is considered a baseline Shaolin (external martial arts) exercise from which many improvements and permutations came over time. However "tendon changing" is comparatively coarse and is somewhat removed from the "softer" methods of exercising and exactly the things they develop. I doubt Ueshiba exercised in the Yi Jin Jing mode. I see some indications about some of the ways he trained and I think it will be an interesting discussion someday. But not yet. Why worry about the fifth hill in the road ahead when you're only at the first one?
Quote:
If you have some reference(s) that you consider better than YJM's works ...
I really don't know of any. Well, hmmmm.... The closest book would be Mantak Chia's book "Iron Shirt Chi Kung I", but it's a sort of hash/melange of stuff that you need someone to explain more clearly than is in the book, if you want to derive physical benefit. However, the general principles might be worth looking at. Even though they appear to have nothing to do with anything ever heard of in Aikido, they do... because the logic is a closed matrix of interrelated phenomena.

Best.

Mike
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Old 10-17-2009, 03:22 PM   #141
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Not to beat a dead horse ...
"Yi Jin Jing" could be considered one of the original books on IT. It could also be considered as just a physical training manual for lazy monks who are want to sit about meditating and getting stiff with poor muscle tone and really has nothing to do with IT at all.
Well, I wouldn't believe all the old legends as being accurate reflections of history. Let's just leave it that it was an old form of exercise. However, many of the even older texts are just missing due to purges, book-burnings, time, etc., so no one really has a clear idea of the exact history. The pictures, etc., from the tomb at Mawangdui indicates strongly that these body-training methods are much older than anyone thought before ( see: Yang Sheng Fang manuscript).
Quote:
According to YJM it is part of a method to live to be 200 years old. Not really about IT so much as general good health and longevity. Perhaps a side effect of such health practices are unusual modes of strength that could be classified at IT.
I wouldn't put too much faith on the guess about the longevity method. Let's just say the Yi Jin Jing is a strength trainer and health ensues.
Quote:

Naturally, it is plainly obvious, the missing companion book ("Xisuijing") has the secret decoder ring in which all the questions are answered to full satisfaction for all. More likely "Xisuijing" is IT and "Yi Jin Jing" is external. The real question is what ever happened to the book "Unification of internal and external" ?
The Xisuijing is the "Marrow Cleansing" exercise and despite a lot of texts on it, no one knows for sure exactly how it was done. A lot of people have their guesses out there as "the original knowledge", but there's a lot of variation. If I were to enter my guess, I'd say generally that the Yi Jin Jing is where the conversation and training methods are at the moment (on AikiWeb and in some of the training methods) and the Xisuijing is the softer methods that come later. The question, though, is what method did Ueshiba use, isn't it?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-17-2009, 03:30 PM   #142
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Sounds interesting...
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Old 10-17-2009, 03:36 PM   #143
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Why worry about the fifth hill in the road ahead when you're only at the first one?
It is nice to know the hazards on the road ahead so one can prepare accordingly. Nothing worse that coming to the ravine and wishing one had only known about that before leaving the house that day. Kind of makes the journey so far a waste of time/effort to get to the ravine are no help in getting across.

Anyway, I'm under no illusion that there is quite a bit of work to go and it may even be impossible in several lifetimes. How long has this stuff been around and we still are working on it(IT)? I really don't think it is that tough of a problem it is just that so far we all have been using the wrong tools to try and reach that goal of scientific explanation (even if it does not particularly help ones practice). At least that is what I keep telling myself.

It may well be that after all is said and done and the great tome is delivered one still has to put in the time and IHTBF before one 'gets it(IT)'. That is the jist of my previous reference to organic chemistry in my blog (desk+bench time under guided direction of an expert).

The good news is that according to some it only takes 300 days of practice to get IT - presuming one has the right guide.

Thanks

PS Not to be rude but I'm done with this thread.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-17-2009, 04:25 PM   #144
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
The good news is that according to some it only takes 300 days of practice to get IT - presuming one has the right guide.
I guess that depends on the level. Some people can do rudiments of IT in less than an hour. In a weekend workshop, I can get people to do a lot of things that are parts of "IT". In 300 days, people can get a certain level of *some* skills, but not all, since some skills are dependent on the level of body-conditioning. Ueshiba mentioned something, IIRC, about working on things for 40 years. I don't think he was a dunce... I think these skills are just more complex than some people think.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-17-2009, 04:35 PM   #145
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

For anyone interested, selected remnants of the Neijia List are archived here: http://www.jangchoe.name/neijia/

A peruser can pick up on references to fascia, breathing, qi and movement, and discern certain common themes. It takes awhile.
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Old 10-17-2009, 05:17 PM   #146
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
PS Not to be rude but I'm done with this thread.
Not rude at all - I think that everything can be said has been said. (I'll call it - time of death, 19:16EST) Maybe we can all meet back here in a year or two to share what we've learned on the mat in the interim. Thanks everyone!

I am not an expert
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Old 10-17-2009, 06:26 PM   #147
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
The good news is that according to some it only takes 300 days of practice to get IT - presuming one has the right guide.
Gee wouldn't that cut down on the number of seminars that one would have to attend?

David

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 10-17-2009, 07:17 PM   #148
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Jeremy Morrison wrote: View Post
Not rude at all - I think that everything can be said has been said. (I'll call it - time of death, 19:16EST) Maybe we can all meet back here in a year or two to share what we've learned on the mat in the interim. Thanks everyone!
I have access to an acupuncture school (utilizes Eastern and Western medicine and theory, western medical schools and surgeons), which I have had previous discussions with and they shape the way I see claims such as the facisa and how it is discussed here. I am planning to do pick their brains further on this issue.

Ya know, nothing is new in the martial arts today it's all out there in books and DVDs and all that, and that creates a problem today in that people who want attention and be out there, have to do so by either ]great skill or repackaging old ideas, to make the person sound what they have is new different, or unique. Now, there is a loop hole in all this. There are those who are not well versed in martials principle and stuff, they are the new students to martial arts or they the ones that are myopic in their art (a martial artist hazard), as well as other reasons. This loop hole provide some people to gain interest in them, usually not the art of course, but what they have repackaged. The focus is on them and what they offer. And, if it is the same stuff that is on the book shelves for the last twenty years, the same stuff that has been taught on the seminar circuit, and in every school, and recycled for just as long. Then it isn't special, or the person isn't special, and they are not in the spot light. Remember we are talking martial arts, and not martial combat skill. There is a difference as martial arts leans toward esotericism and scholarship, and stuff. The problem then is it is hard to determine, unlike combat, who is an expert.

The last thing is when we remove the esotericism in the martial arts there is less threads like these. But, the advantage of esotericism is you don't have to prove anything. And when you have something that has esotericism in it such as Alchemy and the esotericism is removed then you have something more powerful, like Chemistry. But I don't think that will happen in a year.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:17 PM   #149
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I guess that depends on the level. Some people can do rudiments of IT in less than an hour. In a weekend workshop, I can get people to do a lot of things that are parts of "IT". In 300 days, people can get a certain level of *some* skills, but not all, since some skills are dependent on the level of body-conditioning. Ueshiba mentioned something, IIRC, about working on things for 40 years. I don't think he was a dunce... I think these skills are just more complex than some people think.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Sagawa talked about training every day for decades to get to a really high level. Obviously not simple.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:33 PM   #150
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
George,

I would like to know more about this, can you direct me to your sourses? Which of course would prove my statement wrong.

FWIW I am not against being wrong, and gladly acknowledge that if correctly proven wrong.
Something shown to me by a teacher from Daito Ryu dealt with this specifically. Also, Saotome Sensei has shown us things that I only recently understood had to do with this but he didn't have the terminology to explain in our terms. Now that it's been shown to me more concretely, I understand what he was trying to show us.

Research has shown that the brain receives something like a quarter million signals every second which process on an unconscious level. The number that can be processed consciously is somewhere around 40. Part of "aiki" is working with this unconscious input. The connective tissue is part of this sensory system.

This is a separate issue I think from issues concerning power release via internal power.

George S. Ledyard
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