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Old 10-15-2009, 11:01 AM   #76
David Orange
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Rational Explanation for Borat

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
The master explained, "...that the power comes from the internal, the chi, the organs the tendons...
Buck: tendons are fascia.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
...nothing to do with the muscle."

Isn't that external? And there is nothing said about fasica, if the fasica is associated with muscle than it is disregarded with the muscle.
He didn't associate the fascia with the muscle. He differentiated it and place it with the organs and "the internal". Even though, as Mike pointed out, that particular approach is more external than the kind of "internal" associated with tai chi.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Now I see in the second vid how fasica is supporting they guy's posture, just as some people say it should. But, there is no explanation and stuff showing how the fasica is works to improve martial art technique.
There's another big misunderstanding. It's not that fascia improves "technique" per se. It's that proper use of the breath and reliance on fascia more than muscle improves the body and martial power. The improved body and supercharged power can produce superior technique, but the role of fascia is not so much directly in technique. It's above, below, before and after technique. It's like the water where the "fish" of technique lives. Much of why you don't understand is that you're looking at the technique instead of the body.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
If the fasica works with the muscle, besides other things, and the fasica is one big thing, then the sections of fascia that works with muscle must be disregarded along with the muscle per the Master.
Again, you totally misunderstood the man's statement. He did not associate the tendons with the muscle but differentiated them.

Here's your rational explanation.

Part of the reason it's difficult to grasp is that while developed partially through solo training, the effects are seen in the interaction with another person. For analysis, say that person A is the IT man, and person B is a "normal" muscle-oriented person.

B pushes A.

A does not resist with muscle but lets his fascia-connected body (mediated by proper breathing) receive the push along a path through the body right into the ground. There is no way to do this purely with muscle because all the muscles are separate, unconnected items, but the fascia system does link up the whole body and can support paths through the body that allow the force to go straight to ground.

That is the vaunted ground path and, once one is familiar with it, it doesn't have to go directly through the body but can be maintained across spaces, such as from the hip to the forearm, as in the famous tai chi stance. If you let the fascia and the breath maintain the ground path, they will also mediate and distribute the proper and minimal muscle tonus through the whole body to do the work with as little effort as physically possible.

Person B, however, using only muscular effort to push against a solid ground path, finds himself subject to the law of physics which states that every action has an equal and opposite reaction and with no ground supporting him, he finds that he is literally pushing himself away from A just as if he were pushing a solid wall.

That is one weakness B creates in himself instantly by pushing against A's ground-supported structure.

Two more things can happen here: B can change his angle of attack and try to push in a different direction. This will only complicate his "equal and opposite reaction" and will change the organization of muscles required to make that push. Often, he will keep trying this until the "equal and opposite reaction" finds his weakest point and his stance and efforts completely collapse.

Or A can make small adjustments in his position, turning slightly from the waist, or pressing up or down into B's push and forcing B to change his angles, so that A "leads" his effort into "a hole" in B's stance, so that B's stance and power collapse.

To recap: A relies on whole-body fascia to mediate whole-body muscular tonus to channel incoming force directly to the ground.

B relies on coordinated use of muscles-only and pushes himself off balance because he is pushing against something completely supported by ground and he either exhausts himself uselessly or is subtly led into pushing directly back into his own weakest point, collapsing him.

MORE ADVANCED

That, of course, was a quick sketch of the basic concepts. The fascia also has the function, long described in the Chinese classics, of "carrying qi" or "carrying the intent".

Think of the feeling you get when you step into a tub of hot water. The instant your foot hits the water, your whole body tingles all over.

Intent is like that. The guy grabs your wrist and you can feel it through your whole body. You then feed your intent back into him and disrupt his own intent to break him down.

That's a very sketchy outline of how intent works and it's very advanced, so I won't try to go further with it.

Now if you say no one has rationally explained how the fascia is used in martial arts, you might really be Borat. You have only poor reading to blame if you don't get it.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 10-15-2009, 11:05 AM   #77
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Jeremy Morrison wrote: View Post
@David: point made, by many, I think, that some things have to be felt to be learned or even understood, like describing colour to the blind. On the other hand, surely one can empathise with the blind person's desire to understand colour and their insistence on repeated description, even if it's impossible to understand from words alone?
Sure. I was there, myself, and words finally did help me to understand. However, if someone is "willfully blind" and just "baiting" people like Borat, there may be no hope. From Buck's comments and a couple of particularly swinish types on another thread, I'm beginning, for the first time on aikiweb, to believe I might just have to start an IGNORE list.

Thanks.

David

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Old 10-15-2009, 11:13 AM   #78
C. David Henderson
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

For the sake of discussion, I concede there is no scientific proof to satisfy the skeptical consumer that it is the involvement of fascia that contributes characteristic x to action y when performed by someone well versed in "IS" and "IP."

I think this model is, however, more plausible if one understands some basic information about (a) the characteristics and role of fascia in movement and perception; and (b) the characteristics of effective movement from an "IT" perspective.

Keeping with an earlier comment and again for the sake of discussion, let me call (a) the "stick," and (b), the "moon."

In this thread, there are multiple ways to talk past one another, including use of the "no proof of this mechanism" trope as a stalking horse for the "no such phenomena exist to be studied" argument.

In essence, this is an argument that unless you can prove this "stick" is pointing at the "moon," having never seen the moon myself, I don't concede the moon exists (irrespective or how many reliable people report that it does).

As to the nature of the "moon," i.e., the characteristics of movement the fascia model is meant to (partially) elucidate, there are plenty of threads on this forum that contain detailed basic descriptions/discussions from people who train this way and know what they are talking about.

Even those who want "scientific proof" (and are not satisfied by ample "empirical evidence") that these methods have something to recommend them might benefit by understanding more of this basic discussion; its unclear whether people even are "pointing" to the same "moon" with the fascia "stick."

As to the element (a), the Anatomy Trains materials provide some background -- e.g., the tensile quality, strength, and mutability of fascia; their role in supporting the skeleton under gravity and in initiating movement; the interconnectedness ("lines" and "switches") of and in the network of fascial tissue that create this dynamic, tension-balanced structure; and the consequences of imbalance on well-being and performance.

Even those who want "scientific proof" that it is the action of fascial tissue (and not some other combination of factors) that contributes the amply documented characteristic x to action y might benefit by understanding some of this information more fully.

It's unclear to me that everyone is pointing, in other words, with the same conceptual "stick."

FWIW

cdh
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:58 AM   #79
DH
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

David
I think you missed this in post #27
Quote:
Really though it is only the first step. You can train fascia in tension or in "exercising" to your hearts content. You might get stronger and make a step toward IT but you won't ever really get there. There is much more to it than that. And DR teachers knew that as well. In / yo is (yin yang) not a just referred to as In... Yo. It is In Yo Ho (yin Yang method). The study of how to train the mind and body in sustained and trained opposition in movement is where you really start to get into the work. And it can get complex
I initially brought up the limits of fascia training for the simple reason that training it can produce effects that mimic IT but are really just very beginning level stuff. Moreover training fascia in certain ways can actually lead you astray, all while you are noticing that you are getting "stronger" and more "connected" to boot! In reality you are, but certain people who do "exercises" are really swapping one level of tension, for that of another kind. It still isn't really soft or internal, It gets confusing because both may feel "powerful," and a lot of people are fooled into thinking they are the same thing. For martial artists the first-which is easier to accomplish- may seem like the right road-why not, right? But it isn't the soft style of training where aikido came from (DR). Daito ryu (only the few good ones in it) is an exceedingly soft style and trains power through building the body in various ways, the use of spiral energy and in the use of breath-power through aiki in yo ho. It does not make use of tensioned facial lines.
I met a hung gar fellow; great guy, really good fighter trained all over the world, even did Mongolian wrestling in Russia! He did his version of what he considered internal really well. Then he met CXW. It wasn't that he thought CXW was "all that" over what he could deliver, but he recognized right away that it was a different power and he wanted to learn it. He had to start over, just like everyone else -to train soft.

The ground
Discussing bringing a path to the ground is fine, but in and of itself it is nothing more than a first step. Although I get people started that way (it is a step you have to take) I never "bring a path to the ground" and neither do a few VERY good ICMA teachers I have played with. There are other ways to train past that where the ground; while present is expressed in a different manner that is faster in response and more whole body in application. Same thing with how people load and release; there are ways to do that, that are NOT all the same. Transparent power has a distinct meaning that has not one thing to with sending a path to the ground. On the whole I would rather let your face pass right through me, while I enter in.
Anyway, finding people to train with who do this "stuff" is a great first step, but they are most assuredly not all doing the same 'stuff"even regarding fascial training, and not all of it relates to Aikido. Unlike some who have audacity to tell you what is what, I'll leave that up to you guys to figure out and decide on your own.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-15-2009 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:16 PM   #80
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Buck,
Can you explain to me what you mean by scientific proof?

Thanks,
Tim
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:23 PM   #81
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
I know fascia is getting the lime light right now, but there're other mechanics that comprise IS, .
No doubt (I half heartedly kept to the fascia thread topic, mostly).

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Certain elements can be found in the animal kingdom as well...but you still need a foot in the door to recognize what's going on.
Cool! Now if I can just find that door I'll be sticking my foot in (maybe both, even).

Thanks

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Old 10-15-2009, 01:47 PM   #82
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my so-called "theory"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
But it depended first on mentally recognizing a potential in the body, mentally identifying its workings and then physically/mentally refining that potential into various forms. It's the same thing with my old idea that "external" aikido technique developed from child movement and Dan's assertion that IS is "natural" but not "just natural" and that children do not have the capacity to develop it purely from their innate instincts of movement.
My one-legged theory:
It seems what we're talking about here is an innate system of load transference which is built into the physiology of all humans. All movement is brought about through both contraction and relaxation. Muscles require much less upkeep to use regularly so it only makes sense that they would be the primary system of movement (and thus the most obvious system of load transferal). The fascia in the body seems to explain a lot. As a structural "tie-together" it would seem to be a place where large loads could be handled...much like our bones except that fascia behaves as an elastic sort of semi-fuid. Since it can contract and relax, it can add to movement while bearing great load. Since it's elastic and spring-like there seems to be a natural force acceleration ability built into it. It seems like fascia is a good place to look for much of the dynamic found in physical aiki. My hunch is that these things are natural, just like our muscles which also require practice to make more perfect. Being a bit more subtle to movement, it requires more time spent paying attention and kids don't focus as well.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-15-2009 at 01:56 PM.

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Old 10-15-2009, 02:16 PM   #83
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
I wonder if there is going to be an echo.
PLONK.

There's your echo. Enjoy!

B,
R

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Old 10-15-2009, 02:27 PM   #84
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

I don't have much more to contribute other than a sincere thank you. Truly. I want to express my ongoing gratitude, both to the big dogs (! very cool that you guys deign to post here), and to all the people who share their thoughts, investigations and time. I really enjoy congregating here with you and consider it an honor to be able to participate.

I would also like to point out, again, just what a strange existence this is... where the most objectionable and even downright rude people.. can serve as a focal point for, and even cause an advance in, discussion. Perhaps truly there are no vestigial organs...we each have our purpose. Even if it is only to serve as a bad example.

Best,
Josh
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:32 PM   #85
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
PLONK.

There's your echo. Enjoy!

B,
R
Ok ok...what's PLONK? Looking it up on wikipedia I see it can denote ignoring a poster (which is ironic) or essentially telling them to take a hike.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-15-2009 at 02:38 PM.

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Old 10-15-2009, 02:37 PM   #86
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
I don't have much more to contribute other than a sincere thank you. Truly. I want to express my ongoing gratitude, both to the big dogs (! very cool that you guys deign to post here), and to all the people who share their thoughts, investigations and time. I really enjoy congregating here with you and consider it an honor to be able to participate.

I would also like to point out, again, just what a strange existence this is... where the most objectionable and even downright rude people.. can serve as a focal point for, and even cause an advance in, discussion. Perhaps truly there are no vestigial organs...we each have our purpose. Even if it is only to serve as a bad example.

Best,
Josh
I like that. Thank you. Useful is as useful made.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:45 PM   #87
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Ok ok...what's PLONK? Looking it up on wikipedia I see it can denote ignoring a poster (which is ironic) or essentially telling them to take a hike.
In the old days PLONK was the sound of someone whose contributions were less than usefull hitting the bottom of your kill file on usenet. The kill file was used to filter out posts you pretty much knew you didn't need to read.

Personally, I don't use the ignore feature here anymore...there were one or two people that made it there at one time or another, but they either moved on, got better, or I relented out of that kind of sick fascination that makes you look at a fight in the school yard. I am reconsidering that...I may have to start using it again. When you type a 3 line post, and someone still doesn't read it...

You get the idea.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:53 PM   #88
Mark Kruger
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

You don't need to know about general and special relativity to use a GPS receiver. You don't need to understand quantum mechanics to use your computer. You can use crude models to do quite a bit. When I took a course in celestial navigation we still used an earth-centric model of the solar system and stars. I could get within a few miles of my actual location.

However, because you can do something with no or inaccurate understanding does not reduce the need for better models of the world. Imagine if we had stuck with the "bad air" theory of disease transmission or the four element theory of chemistry (five if you are chinese).

Having said that, I doubt most of the folks trying to come up with new models for IP. From what I've read here, either they are trying to discredit IP, or are stuck in some sort of Platoic mode where direct observational evidence and testing aren't needed, or lack the cross section of skills needed to investigate intelligently. It reminds me of any number of conversations I've had we folks with minimal science and math backgrounds about how general relativity can't work or how thoughts can affect objects at a quantum mechanical level.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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Old 10-15-2009, 05:49 PM   #89
Rob Watson
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Mark Kruger wrote: View Post
You don't need to know about general and special relativity to use a GPS receiver. You don't need to understand quantum mechanics to use your computer.
GPS users will have precious little to contribute to the next generation GPS system or even a new and improved GPS receiver. That is what we are talking about - build the system so folks can learn to use it.

Thanks

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:59 PM   #90
Buck
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Don't forget feel.
Very good point. Here is the issue with feel, do you recognize what is happening when you experience something as it should be or you don't and then try and come up with something to explain it. And the latter usually is framed in the abstract and not the concrete. The other thing is the person performing the technique can plant a suggestion in the mind of the individual to direct their explanation. This is so common in martial arts it goes un-noticed most of the time, as well as misdirection. These are factor that we have to consider.

Is it really the fasica, we real don't. We can speculation and theorize but that must be identified as such, and not confused with fact.

We really have to stop using Taoism (both Chinese and Japanese arts) models, framework, structures, and language to explain martial arts feats. It is archaic, out dated, and lends itself to be tools for deception and fraud, and most of all maintaining ignorance. Dan once said, in short, recently, that he will teach what the Japanese teachers are keeping secret. Part of that secret keep is using scientific langauge and in stead using metaphysical language.

*Personally, I don't think there is anything that hasn't already been discovered and isn't in the open already functioning that isn't readily accessible, when it comes to secrets in today's world. It may have a been a different story 50 years or more ago in Japan. That is a theory of mine, I have allot of confidence in. The best way to keep secrets now is not to explain things, and keep them private, and use obscure and archaic language and ideas which are embellished upon.

I got an email from a friend following this thread and responded to the point I made about the kid who could "locking up" his body and make is stiff as a board, and he said Harry Houdini had a feat that killed him. He challenge people to punch him in the gut and he wouldn't be hurt. Now, if that was in the martial arts, this could be called his chi is protecting him, it would be a highly sought after skill, but when Houdini wasn't ready some college kid hit him in the gut and it lead to his death. So, that truncated that skill right then and there. Martial arts are full of such performance/circus acts that are sold as martial arts feats indicating the strength of the martial artist. But, people still suck it up still after thousands of years. Martial artists with super human strength, skill, and what ever.

So it isn't just about feel. I can say, I take a punch to the gut and say my chi is protecting me. Is that true? Is that accurate? Or is that a great way to hide what am really doing, or what really is happening. If I go see the weeping statue of Mary, whose tears are of blood, do I believe it? I mean I seen it with my own eyes. Or if someone touches my neck and I black out and they say it was do to chi/ki or it is the interrupted energy meridian of my heart, do I believe it? Or do I say, statues can't weep blood, something is fishy. And in simply terms, say, the loss of conscious in the result of the interruption of blood and oxygen to the brain, and that if nerves signals experience an interruption and fail the result also can be loss of consciousness. Therefore, my vega nerve and my carotid artery artery experienced interruption do to a touch or strike.
Yea, it is easy to experience something and be told it is one thing, when possibility it is not, or yet has to be explained scientificially.

I have yet to see someone who really defies the limits and capabilities of being human. Until, then I will assume it is a perception issue. Some people believe it as it is told, some people don't. I believe 1/2 of what I see, hear, and experience. Until there is solid reliable proof, in form of a scientific explanation. Think about it what kind of Doctor would you go to, the one that practices and claims to heal you with invisible forces and sound all mystical with archaic Taoist language, who at best might rid you of a headache cause he relaxed you, and you where unaware he did so, or the one grounded in science and fact, and medical training. If it was my life hanging in the balance, say in a car accident, get me to the archaic room, where a doctor who went to an accredited medical school, has a Ph.D. was trained in the trenches of archaic room trauma, and is licensed to practice medicine. I don't care what the other so called-doctor claims he can do, or his patience testimonies are, get me to a real doctor.

It is common sense and general protocal to ask for the research, if they can't deliver fine, I will give it time. But, until then I can't by into it merely based on opinion, or what someone says it is. Ya got to have the studies.

We don't any more live in a world where we are told it is flat. It does looks flat doesn't it, as far as the eye can see no matter if we stand still or travel, we never see the curves of the earth when doing so, but we can circumnavigate it and photos from space show the earth is round, and not flat.

I suspect someone will say you can see the curves of the earth from a plane, or from reading specialized equipment. True you can, and thank you science. But, when I said, traveling I ment on foot or beast as they did when they believed the earth was flat, and if you believed differently and spoke aloud about it, you where tortured and or killed in the name of God.And I also mean even to day you can't see the curves of the earth when standing, walking, or driving.

And science does and has kept the frauds and ilk from propogating lies and stuff. It also works to support and give credit to those who are truely on to something or have something as well.

Last edited by Buck : 10-15-2009 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:25 PM   #91
Buck
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Got timed out: And science does and has kept the frauds and ilk from propagating lies and stuff. It also works to support and give credit to those who are truly on to something or have something as well.

That is something we see throughout history and most importantly to day. Heck, if we didn't have scientific studies proving stuff, for example, the pharmaceutical industry would be like the cosmetics industry, no it would be worse. Look at Enzyte for example. http://erectile-dysfunction.emedtv.c...zyte-work.html
A news channel did a report and when the reporter called the company and said it didn't work and wanted the money back. The customer support, said if there was an erection any time after the pill was taken then it worked, refusing a refund.

So yea, scientific research is important. For those who think otherwise, the earth is still flat and the mood is made of cheese. Good luck.

Last edited by Buck : 10-15-2009 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:26 PM   #92
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
[i]I suspect someone will say you can see the curves of the earth from a plane, or from reading specialized equipment. True you can, and thank you science. But, when I said, traveling I ment on foot or beast as they did when they believed the earth was flat, and if you believed differently and spoke aloud about it, you where tortured and or killed in the name of God.And I also mean even to day you can't see the curves of the earth when standing, walking, or driving.
Bullpoo!!!

Who was tortured or put to death in the name of God for claiming the Earth was not flat?. Citations please.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:31 PM   #93
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
David
I think you missed this in post #27
Dan,

thanks for the lot of clarification. I was just making an attempt to sketch a general outline of the very basic rationale of how fascia is used in MA so that Buck couldn't say no one had described any of it in "scientific" terms. Lord knows I can't do much of the IT at all, and I do realize that it's only a very general description. Also, I realize that the fascia is just one element among many involved, and that even at that, I haven't scratched the surface.

Looking forward to January.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 10-15-2009, 07:42 PM   #94
Buck
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

David, Dan, and others,

Good luck in your pursuits. I wish you the best. Please let me know when a published study is done, I would like to read it.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:46 PM   #95
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Ok ok...what's PLONK? Looking it up on wikipedia I see it can denote ignoring a poster (which is ironic) or essentially telling them to take a hike.
I only know it as referring to very low quality wine. "It was plonk."

Which often seems to fit well with Ron's usage.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 10-15-2009, 07:56 PM   #96
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
David, Dan, and others,

Good luck in your pursuits. I wish you the best. Please let me know when a published study is done, I would like to read it.
Buck, (or should I say Borat?)

The I Ching has a line for most everything. Ancient martial arts and methods including aiki no in-yo ho were derived from deep consideration of its teachings.

Here is the one I think best applies to you:

It is not I who seek the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes, I give him no information.

After all this, you have finally convinced me that you don't deserve any further attention from anyone who knows anything and if you did find a really great teacher, he would teach everyone else in the class and just let you wonder what you're missing because he would teach the others in plain sight and you would never see it.

Tata.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:24 PM   #97
Buck
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

David,

You're saying then, you don't see any scientific studies coming forth in the future in the area of martial arts and the fasica. You are satisfied with the information you have, and the sourses and don't need to pursue knowledge anymore then you feel necessary, or go outside of your sourses. You are satisfied with all that. I respect that. Good luck, and good training.

Last edited by Buck : 10-15-2009 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:35 AM   #98
Janet Rosen
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Re: Rational Explanation for Borat

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Buck: tendons are fascia.
David
Um...no, sorry. From an anatomy and physiology perspective, fascia is the thin connective tissue the totally encases each muscle - when you cut a steak apart it is that membrane stuff. WHen you've had surgery it gets cut and can create all kinds of pain and scarring and stiffness.
Tendons are the connective tissues that bind muscle to bone, the way ligaments bind bone to bone. Tendons are the things running through the top of your hand to each finger, letting the contraction of muscles in the forearm make your fingers move.

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Old 10-16-2009, 01:23 AM   #99
Walker
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Ligaments, tendons, and fascia differ in their function and not so much in their nature. Ligaments connect bone to bone, tendons connect bone to muscle, and fascia connect muscle to muscle. Other than that, they are made of the same kinds of stuff (collagen) and merge into one another when not sitting dissected on a table or in a book.

-Doug Walker
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Old 10-16-2009, 10:35 AM   #100
Janet Rosen
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Doug Walker wrote: View Post
Ligaments, tendons, and fascia differ in their function and not so much in their nature. Ligaments connect bone to bone, tendons connect bone to muscle, and fascia connect muscle to muscle. Other than that, they are made of the same kinds of stuff (collagen) and merge into one another when not sitting dissected on a table or in a book.
Being made of the same substance and yes, merging into each other, does not in my world make them the same thing; I stand by my statement that it is incorrect to say that what we call the fascia equals what we call a tendon.

Janet Rosen
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