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Old 10-14-2009, 10:09 AM   #26
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Can you provide me with something that says that the Japanese martial arts, including O'Sensei understood, muchless knew about, the fascia , and its existence. And understood it completely is role and function and used it consciously in technique?
Many of the people promoting the idea of using the fascia in martial arts technique have received their information from koryu training. If you would get out from behind your keyboard and actually train with some of them, you would know the answer to your question and wouldn't be making such claims as that O Sensei did not use it. In short, it is definitely an element in daito ryu and Dan Harden explained it to a very deep level in his August seminar. He showed the particular sub-structures of the whole-body fascia and explained their significance as "support" lines as well as "energy paths" through the body. He also showed how those support lines become the major focus of technique instead of some combinations of muscular effort. Since it is a central factor in daito ryu, O Sensei learned directly from Sokaku Takeda and emerged as one of the most powerful adherents of that art, we have much reason to believe that he not only used it but developed it to an extremely fine level. When you see people pushing him while he stands in a parallel stance, unmoved, and people explain that he does this through the fascia instead of muscle, you should pick up on that and try to learn more, rather than dismissing it.

Next, even a little reading in Chinese martial arts (particularly tai chi) will soon introduce you to the idea that the fascia transmits the qi throughout the body. It is often referred to as "sinew strength" or "intrinsic strength" of the body as opposed to muscle strength and it is one of the most difficult concepts to grasp when one thinks only in terms of muscular execution of movements. The key is not so much learning to "contract" the fascia (which is analgous to muscle-use), but in understanding how it knits the various parts of the body together and in using that connectedness effortlessly instead of using great effort in muscular contraction. Fascia is used very differently than muscle, but the common impulse is to try to figure out how to use it like another type of muscle, which will only mislead one into deeper misunderstanding and possibly injury.

Further, the founder of aiki-jujutsu some hundreds of years ago, is known to have dissected dead bodies to learn how to improve the effectiveness of techniques. Most people will assume that merely to mean how better to apply ikkyo, nikkyo, etc., but those techniques can be deeply understood just by twisting lots of people's arms, no dissection required. More likely, he dissected bodies to understand the fascia chains of the body and how better to use them to maximize his own intrinsic strength in applying techniques. And, of course, in those days, he would have been far more concerned with sword technique than arm-twisting.

Last, Donn Draegger says that much of "aiki no in-yo ho" was derived through the same man's study of the Chinese I Ching, which also informed the Chinese arts of tai chi and bagua, especially.

These are things I have known for probably 30 years, but they never became clear until I recognized the nature of the fascia level as described in The Leather Man and actually got out and felt the power of Akuzawa and Dan Harden and studied their explanations. In other words, a "scientific" understanding of this subject won't do you much good without the physical experience of physically working with someone who has full control of it.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Is there any sword school that consciously notes the fascia and it's role and attributes it to improving technique? How about Sumo? Is there any well known and accomplished Japanese Sensei's then and now, who atribute to having an edge in combat because they are able to utilize the fascia in a distinct and controlled function?
The above comments answer those questions.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I am really interested to hear what they say.
Better, Buck: go out and meet them and get the whole story.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 10-14-2009, 11:48 AM   #27
DH
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Hello David
Discussing Fascia and tendon use with you is particularly poignant-more on that later.

The first time I ran into the concept of Fascia and tendons in use was from a Daito ryu Sensei who was admonishing us to us to "relax through movement" and "not flex or use the shoulders but rather to stretch through" He called it "using the long muscles" Which of course, he being Japanese, was just more poorly explained, ill-described and practically useless Japanese teachers efforts at explaining anything. It was another student (a physical therapist) who finally got what was being talked about and told the teacher it s fascia and tendon he was describing.
Now, all of that means-nothing useful. What really mattered was "the feel" learning certain ways to do certain things in the body; how, where and why listening and intent done in prescribed manners that changed the body. As he put it "Danny this is body type" "Body aiki." And these solo exercises and paired training to connect burned it in.

Where this is poignant for your is that the only other time I have heard the term" long muscle use" was from whom?
Your teacher...in an Aikido Journal interview! Who was taught by...Ueshiba!

This is where Mr. Burgess's comment comes in.
Isn't it odd that the latest medical testing continues to confirm ancient Chinese medical understanding of the body; some Meridian theory, Acupuncture, the latest motion capture testing of the taiji guy where the scientist cannot explain the acceleration and power from the human body, and finally...at least for me...the remarkable book match of the movement and training models in Daito ryu body movement; turn from the waist, power up, power down, breath training and what connects to what, spiral energy to the fascia "anatomy trains theory"; now proved by the AMA. In this case we know what came first; the ancient knowledge. Western science is only confirming what those DR teachers and the Chinese inherently knew in how to train the body.
Really though it is only the first step. You can train fascia in tension or in "exercising" to your hearts content. You might get stronger and make a step toward IT but you won't ever really get there. There is much more to it than that. And DR teachers knew that as well. In / yo is (yin yang) not a just referred to as In... Yo. It is In Yo Ho (yin Yang method). The study of how to train the mind and body in sustained and trained opposition in movement is where you really start to get into the work. And it can get complex. It is also where the solo aspects, can really come to the fore in...actual fighting-meaning force on force.
Unlike some people who train Soft work, I actually enjoy fighting. And this type of training-overlaps into successfully confronting ICMA, Japanese arts and MMA quite well.

Does it matter to me whether the general readership gets IT as a concept? I could care less. I am not talking to or trying to convince the Eric Meads, Bucks, and Mr. Scaggs of anything. I am talking to those in Aikido with open minds who want to improve their training...AND...who will step-up and find out.

I think we are going to look back on these last few years, as the age when IP and Ki training were finally proved to the aiki community. The Ki wars that happened years ago didn't go far because it was so poorly represented. Those advocating it were hamstrung by less than stellar proponents in ki aikido. What they showed was just not THAT different or exceptional over normal aikido practice, and some were ki faeries largely incapable of anything really meaningful. Today we have men who are far more developed and able. These men-if challenged on the veracity of Ki or "IT" -will simply blow you away and leave you sitting on your ass looking up- and wondering how you got there..over and over and over. Then teach (those wiling to listen) how to do it.
At no time in the history of Aikido or Daito ryu has this information been so available. We can be better than the Japanese at this, hell some of us already are.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:55 PM   #28
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

What Dan and David said.

Much better than I ever could.

Best,
Ron

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Old 10-14-2009, 01:00 PM   #29
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

wow

in lieu of substance...i'll just point to some pretty pictures.

Superficial Back Line
Superficial Front Line
The Lateral Line
The Spiral Line

Anyone got a picture of the deep front line? Deep back line?
Is that book worth its price?
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:43 PM   #30
C. David Henderson
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Josh, the deep front line is depicted at page 182 of http://www.anatomytrains.com/uploads...nsOverview.pdf.

They don't seem to have a "deep back line," however there is a "deep back arm line" and a "deep front arm line" depicted at page 180.

best,

cdh
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:30 PM   #31
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
What Dan and David said.

Much better than I ever could.
I'll bet you're doing it a lot better than I am by now, though. Dan tells me you were the first one to get to the barn after he started teaching openly.

Any insights from your time in so far?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 10-14-2009, 02:40 PM   #32
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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wow

in lieu of substance...i'll just point to some pretty pictures.
Wow, indeed! Nice job, Josh.

A+ for you!

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:47 PM   #33
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Good on you, too, David!

I feel a bit weird to get so excited seeing illustrations like this, but this is fantastic stuff. Along with the general explanations already offered, these links should put to rest the idea that the function of the fascia in martial arts is questionable.

Actually, illustration 8.6 shows what I look like at Monday morning meetings!

Thanks!

David

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Josh, the deep front line is depicted at page 182 of http://www.anatomytrains.com/uploads...nsOverview.pdf.

They don't seem to have a "deep back line," however there is a "deep back arm line" and a "deep front arm line" depicted at page 180.

best,

cdh

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:52 PM   #34
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Why would the body have anything that was not functional really. Okay, the appendix is vestigal maybe...or maybe not.

Again...I go back to...what difference does it make if we can empirically say how it is done, isn't it better to be able to demonstrate functionality or use?

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Old 10-14-2009, 02:54 PM   #35
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I'll bet you're doing it a lot better than I am by now, though. Dan tells me you were the first one to get to the barn after he started teaching openly.

Any insights from your time in so far?

David
Insights?? Be prepared for the LONG HAUL. That's about it for insights from me! I'm still working on this as I can, but I've had too many crazy things going on here to be as dedicated as I'd like. But I'll keep slogging along....
Best,
Ron

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Old 10-14-2009, 03:08 PM   #36
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Insights?? Be prepared for the LONG HAUL.
Sounds like excellent advice.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I'm still working on this as I can, but I've had too many crazy things going on here to be as dedicated as I'd like. But I'll keep slogging along....
Slogging?! You speed demon! I'm crawling!!!!

Envy.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 10-14-2009, 03:13 PM   #37
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Again...I go back to...what difference does it make if we can empirically say how it is done, isn't it better to be able to demonstrate functionality or use?
Yeah...but then you get back to the guy who can do it but can't really help anyone else get it. Except through imitation of movement,,,,which is what we've been relying on so far.

Well, of course, you can't help anyone else until you've helped yourself, but I think we need the clear understanding of "how" before we can really reach the goal (said by someone who, so far, can't even do the basics...).

Still, I think I need that mental understanding to keep me following the proper course because even if you are replicating the appearance of the exercises...maybe you'll miss something.

But that's why we have to keep going back to the guys who do understand...(tongues hanging out in exhaustion).

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 10-14-2009, 03:35 PM   #38
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Kevin - I agree with you...but am torn. The more ways there are to think about 'the problem' (at least in science) the better, in general.
Maybe it's like the 'finger pointing to the moon'. Not 'it' ..but.... somehow useful...

on a tangent:

Talking about the leaps from the terms 'breathwork/'long muscle' to the concept/knowledge of fascia (as justification and rationale)..to the concept of personal body knowledge of fascia; and modes to use and strengthen it...to 'techhology/bodywork' to develop it, to shenfa or body methods to use it in motion, to communication and open sharing of it? Each one of these is.. i think.. quite substantial.. and builds on the previous. who can say where it will go. i read somewhere that aiki is the way of the future. who knows?
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Old 10-14-2009, 04:27 PM   #39
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

I think the "fascia" discussions are probably premature. No one is going to understand any of the mechanisms from these types of discussions, so the worry is more that people will waste time on tangents that lead nowhere when they should be devoting more time to good basics. It's probably important to note that, as I've said before, there are many variations, gradations, and levels to these skills and all the attendant body-mechanics. In terms of "fascia", for instance, look at some of the harder style development types seen in the early parts of this vid clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1WD...eature=related

versus this type of development:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj0qSe9Ryps

The first vid, even though it contains "fascia" and jin examples in it, is what would actually be called an "external" martial art. The second video shows how development could be done in an "internal" martial art. Most of the discussions I've seen so far on this forum in re fascia are actually along the lines of "external martial arts". The real question is 'what did Ueshiba do... internal or external development of the qi/ki/jin/kokyu skills?'.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-14-2009, 04:31 PM   #40
DH
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Kevin - I agree with you...but am torn. The more ways there are to think about 'the problem' (at least in science) the better, in general.
Maybe it's like the 'finger pointing to the moon'. Not 'it' ..but.... somehow useful...

on a tangent:

Talking about the leaps from the terms 'breathwork/'long muscle' to the concept/knowledge of fascia (as justification and rationale)..to the concept of personal body knowledge of fascia; and modes to use and strengthen it...to 'techhology/bodywork' to develop it, to shenfa or body methods to use it in motion, to communication and open sharing of it? Each one of these is.. i think.. quite substantial.. and builds on the previous. who can say where it will go. i read somewhere that aiki is the way of the future. who knows?
Hello Josh
I think Kevin is more or less stating that the knowledge really doesn't help much. My oft repeated story is of some of the ICMA grand masters and some lineage holders who wrote on certain lists and forums and come across as "experts." When I touched hands with them, the fomer (while having good jujutsu-had no internal power). He pushed me and actually bounced himself off of me, the later- I think my wife could have handled him without breaking a sweat. Not all is as it appears on the net no matter how "knowledgable" someone sounds.
Again as I stated earlier, you can practice training the fascia in any number of ways and it isn't gong to get you very far-other than some rudimentary strength and connection. And some train it with "tension" and think they got "IT." Everyone needs to go meet as many men claiming to teach this stuff as possible and find someone with a method and track record that works and settle-in.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-14-2009 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:26 PM   #41
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Yup, what Dan and Mike said are my points about understanding....the intellectual knowledge does no good. It don't matter if it is fascia or something else at play...what matters is that the people you work with can show you what they are doing, can replicate it under the conditions set, and then can show you the exercises/practices and lessons learned to do these things.

Having gotten with a few of these guys...and some folks in other systems that I hold in high regard...I noticed a common thread amongst all of them that is constantly repeated concerning the basic movements, breathing, and exercises. Some talk of fascia...some don't. Some talk about a suit (Mike) others do not, some do not even speak english!

So, when I look at the common denominator between all of them, and what I consider to be the important message...it involves doing certain types of exercises and movements over a long period of time with a certain degree of mentorship.

it really simply boils down to this I believe.

Having argued with both Mike and Dan over the past years, not really understanding what they meant...once I worked with Mike, Rob, and Ark...it became a lot clearer to me and it cleared up alot of the misunderstaning that I had.

Hence, why I don't argue much with them these days, and why I came into the camp of "go out and meet up with them before you do anything else".

Intellectuallizing this stuff and trying to nail it down mentally is something I think we learn in our education system in the west that says that brain power can solve any problem and once we can mentally or intellectually understand it then we can replicate it.

It just don't work that way with kinesthetic practices, no matter how hard we want to think, rationalize, or intellectualize it.

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Old 10-14-2009, 08:50 PM   #42
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Interesting discussion, all - thanks!

Mike, Kevin, Dan, Ron, etc: I wasn't so much curious because I wanted to know how to use fascia like that; working on the basic principles is still where I am in my practise and probably will be for the next decade or two! (I mostly, when I get to work a little with someone vastly better than I am, think "wow, I want to be able to do that!" and then try to work on it. So I may join the Internal Strength discussions when I'm sixty, but the internet will probably be obsolete by then...) I was mostly curious about the language: as a scientist and medical student, the interest was anatomical and clinical; as an aikidoka and former philosophy major, I always want to understand the language that my fellow aikidoka are using. Sometimes at seminars people will use terms that I'm not familiar with on the mat (never the teaching sensei, interestingly - usually sempai or presumed sempai from other dojos...), and I wasn't sure what the people in this forum really meant by "fascia".

I think that my original question has been answered: that people are using the word in many different ways! Back to practising...

I am not an expert
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:58 PM   #43
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Jeremy Morrison wrote: View Post
I think that my original question has been answered: that people are using the word in many different ways! Back to practising...
That's very true. I made a post once on QiJin to the effect that "we're not all talking about the same things" (even though we're using the same terms). The use of the "fascia" idea came from posts on the old Neijia List back in the mid-1990's. Like the term "double-weighted", many people use the buzzword nowadays (and they all got it by themselves, to hear their telling) but, as will be seen in the future looking back, not too many people really know what it actually means. To quote Chen Xiaowang in regard to 'double-weighted'... "if it was as simple as people are talking about, we would never have made the distinction". Watch the stories change.... or, in other words, take all the experts with a grain of salt. Tell them to put it in writing.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:58 PM   #44
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
It just don't work that way with kinesthetic practices, no matter how hard we want to think, rationalize, or intellectualize it.
I agree, but I don't think the importance of careful observation, rationalization, and thinking skills can be understated either.
A lot of guys that "get it" (including people from both the CMA and JMA camps) have mentioned that you can't be an "idiot" if you want to obtain these skills. Perseverance and hard work sans the thinking will only land someone in a sea of mediocrity.

Couple of things from a book that's been quoted way to often and used as a tool to beat an animal:

1) Most people don't think enough (and intellectualizing is NOT the same as "thinking" in this case)
2) Most people don't train enough
3) Most people don't know how to combine 1 & 2

Get parts 1-3 down, and things kind of start to happen all on their own.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:16 PM   #45
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Good points Rob.

Jeremy, also some good points concerning languaging skills.

Something I have found the Yoga community actually does much better than we in the MA community do, and I am finding out that it is a very important communication skill to have as a teacher.

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Old 10-14-2009, 09:32 PM   #46
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Having gotten with a few of these guys...and some folks in other systems that I hold in high regard...I noticed a common thread amongst all of them that is constantly repeated concerning the basic movements, breathing, and exercises....it really simply boils down to this I believe.
Yeah. That really is true. And it also makes it clear just why breathing exercises are done and it explains how they function better than anything I've seen before.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Having argued with both Mike and Dan over the past years, not really understanding what they meant...once I worked with Mike, Rob, and Ark...it became a lot clearer to me and it cleared up alot of the misunderstaning that I had.

Hence, why I don't argue much with them these days, and why I came into the camp of "go out and meet up with them before you do anything else".
I guess a lot of people are limited by pure skepticism, but I think a lot are also like me: they just couldn't afford to go jaunting around to meet folks. But I'd say if you have the opportunity to go to any seminar, Dan, Mike, Ark and Rob are the ones to put the money on.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Intellectuallizing this stuff and trying to nail it down mentally is something I think we learn in our education system in the west that says that brain power can solve any problem and once we can mentally or intellectually understand it then we can replicate it.

It just don't work that way with kinesthetic practices, no matter how hard we want to think, rationalize, or intellectualize it.
Yes...but...they old-timers weren't dissecting corpses without a lot of intellectual intent. I think ultimately, you have to look as deeply as you can. But the exercises and developing the baseline skills are the first priorty and the intellectualization is more useful once you have those under control.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:41 PM   #47
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Absolutely...David, I can see where for someone at Mike Sigman's level of training and knowledge that it is useful to look deeper. At my level though, it just isn't useful at this stage.

I suppose my point is more directed to the constant conversation and what it is and isn't that becomes a cyclic discussion that repeats itself with no advancement.

Not much point on discussing further past a certain point unless you are actually training.

I do agree that there are those out there that don't have access. My access is limited as well to a few times a year, that and I make a conscious point at this time to spend my time developing primarily my JJ skills and IS secondarily. That may change one day...and frankly I am hoping that they will merge and invert...but right now, I feel it is more important for me to spend time in this area of development most of the time.

Anyway, good discussion.

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Old 10-14-2009, 10:05 PM   #48
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Why would the body have anything that was not functional really. Okay, the appendix is vestigal maybe...or maybe not.
Vestigal, atavistic or just not used for the right function, yet.Gall bladder, spleen, why 10 fingers instead of 8 or 12- same for toes, facial hair, arm pit hair, two sets of chromosomes when only one is required ... Not to mention just exactly what is the brain for and if I use it for watching porn does that mean that is what is was mean't to do as natural selection lead up to the development thereof.

There is a whole bunch more besides too. Just because the stuff is there does not mean it was a positive selection for a specific purpose. The classic example is feathers - they most certainly did not start out as being mean't for flight but were first used for thermal regulation of the body temperature. Once the feathers developed to an optima for thermal regulation another function was found for them and the majesty of winged flight was enabled - natural selection drove towards better thermal regulation but the danged birds just started flapping harder and found those feather helped with flying. This is exactly the example of exaptation I mentioned earlier (another thread) - a new function that was 'added' to an exisiting structure that was never the point in the first place. Eye balls have a similar history.

If aiki/IP/IS, etc is 'natural' then where are the examples of aiki/IP/IS, etc in the animal kingdom? Maybe aiki/IP/IS, etc one of those things that is co-opted for another purpose. If aiki/IP/IS, etc is does have to do with the fascia and the training is a form of fascia remodelling well certainly there are a great many critters (even non-mammalian) that have fascia.

If aiki/IP/IS, etc gives such an advantage then surely it makes good sense for other animals to use IT too .. survival of the fittest and all. At least let's make the leap and stretch the metaphor and make the selective pressure so great in MA that no aiki/IP/IS, etc = no MA and drive the muscle power dominated arts into extinction (unlike Dan's mention of the dinosaurs- which were driven out by a meteor leaving the meek shrews to take over) aiki/IP/IS, etc driven MA can drive out the old - be the meteors of the modern MA!

As to the question
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Again...I go back to...what difference does it make if we can empirically say how it is done, isn't it better to be able to demonstrate functionality or use?
How many times has is been stated that IHBF, can't be described in words, you can tell who does not know IT by how they describe IT? Basically those who have been cast as the exemplars have said it is so and therefore the rest of us buy into it so that leaves hands on demo as the preferred mode. Just because it is strongly stated that IHBF does not mean that is so - certainly it is likely less efficient to give a written description/perscription to IT but the current lack is only in the abilities/capabilities of the 'vetted' group to do so. Certainly the art of the crafted word requires a certain talent that many lack - that is not a knock it just is so. One day the physicist wordsmith will write the definitive manual of IT, complete with diagrams, and they will be properly 'vetted' by those in the know then we can stop all this IHBF business and just get on with IT already.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:18 PM   #49
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
If aiki/IP/IS, etc is 'natural' then where are the examples of aiki/IP/IS, etc in the animal kingdom? Maybe aiki/IP/IS, etc one of those things that is co-opted for another purpose. If aiki/IP/IS, etc is does have to do with the fascia and the training is a form of fascia remodelling well certainly there are a great many critters (even non-mammalian) that have fascia.
I know fascia is getting the lime light right now, but there're other mechanics that comprise IS, and a lot of these can be found in the animal kingdom as well. There's a reason that terms such as "dragon's back" or analogies related to snakes, birds etc are made.
Certain elements can be found in the animal kingdom as well...but you still need a foot in the door to recognize what's going on.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:23 PM   #50
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
.....The use of the "fascia" idea came from posts on the old Neijia List back in the mid-1990's.
This is simply not true.
Whether it's intentional to bolster a proposed position or it's just expressing an ignorance of the Japanese arts; I'll leave it for others to decide.

Maybe its understandable; since no one person can be in all places at all times , that they extrapolate from insular experiences they WERE a part of- things that are simply isolated and not true.
IOW, they mistakenly asssume,...things that they heard or wrote were the only references in 'their" world- so it must be the only referrence in "all the world."
One fellow goes on and one about "these things being taught throughout Asia"...then claims ownership of some of the common terms. Er...okay.
For our purposes:
1. Fascia and long muscle were being discussed in DR when I walked in the door in 1990, and it was discussed in interviews in Aikido Journal, Aikido Today,and even with the likes of Richard Kim in the 80's who noted from his training in DR (I think in fighting arts magazine in the 80's "that the training mehod affects tendon, fascia and bone density." That's just about a quote.
Mochizuki discussed it in AJ and even said in those days we called it "long muscle" (as did one of my DR teachers)-who was corrected and told we call it fascia.
There are at least three people who read here, and two teachers who knows this to be fact.

2. Double weighted is term that has been bandied about by Japanese Maers since the 80's; to include DR, Yanagi Ryu, and Aikido. Yanagi discusses triangulation as the method to resolve it. Dr discusses spiral energy and certain ways to balance across the body lines as ways to resolve it. Certain Koryu, address it and have methods to prevent and change it. There are threads debating it everywhere
3. The term 'listening" and listening skills are in DR as well.
4. The term Heavy hands and how to train for heavy hands is in -DR. including several breathing exercises to train the fascia to incorporate it and make it real in the waza.
It's also an old boxing term
5. Spiral energy and the use of it, has been hinted at and named in interviews in Aikido Journal as well is in Tokimune's writings from the 80's

Many of these terms exist on the E-budo server and the aikido list, There are any number of people here from DR, Yanagi ryu and aikido who were part of those discussions and debates pre and post crash who can attest to the use of those terms.

Quote:
Like the term "double-weighted", many people use the buzzword nowadays (and they all got it by themselves, to hear their telling) but, as will be seen in the future looking back, not too many people really know what it actually means.
Were you everywhere in the Japanese arts at this time?
I was equally "surprised" to hear many of these terms being used in ICMA. Things like the Aiki sphere and how it is shown from a holding a ball to being "in the ball" is taught in two schools of Daito ryu I know of. Imagine my surprise to seeing it used in Taiji.
Unlike you I just couldn't bring myself to tell THEM they "stole" terms they had been using for years and tacitly insinuate everyone was "lying" about it. What incredible hubris.

Quote:
To quote Chen Xiaowang in regard to 'double-weighted'... "if it was as simple as people are talking about, we would never have made the distinction". Watch the stories change.... or, in other words, take all the experts with a grain of salt. Tell them to put it in writing.
FWIW
Mike Sigman
To quote Don Angier "You can double weight them by bringing their weight to their triangulation point...front or back." I am not sure but I think that goes back to the 70's.
To quote Kiyama Shihan DR. "People don't understand this, so its easy to catch them this way and make kuzushi." He was talking about power on the same side foot and hand; and not Angiers triangulation model. I don't agree with Angier- as that method is easily cancelled out, but no matter.

We need to do better than this continuing to claim ownership of terms all while claiming the universal application of the ideas.
This reminds me of the "Fighting Spirit of Japan" references where I was the only one to have had a reason to note the references to the "aikijujutsu man", and the Judo references as they were what I was attempting to do at the time and discussed it back in the aikido list days. Only to be told someone else "first" introduced it ...much later-
I let it go.
Next came the same-side weighting shiko with hand drawn images and public hand outs and video with explanations, all while I kept explaining that Shiko needs to be done in cross-line body training on E-budo and here and personally by phone before a certian fella was going to meet another IS guys and that was all documented; as to who first introduced the idea on aikiweb! Only to be told by Sigman I was following behind and stealing the idea!!!! With someone else taking "ownership" and showing up with a brand new video, with new descriptions and the shiko that used to be explained by the same guy as same-side three axis training now being translated as...cross-line body work!. My exact term. Un-freakin-believable.
I let THAT one go. And never brought it up again till this crap.
Is this the way you guys want to play?
Is this all you got that you need this nonsense?
I mean really guys?....really?

Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-14-2009 at 10:38 PM.
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