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Old 10-07-2009, 09:21 AM   #176
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Short of actually touching people, words can be a very good medium for exchange, but first the speaker has to understand the subject and second, he has to tailor the words to pure simplicity. I think it was Einstein who said if you can't explain something simply, it shows that you really don't understand it. ... But if your explanations are so dense and convoluted that no one really understands them (to me, actually, they are so pointless that they become boring ..
Einstein, was -- well, quite wrong about several important things -- like (what was his technical phrase? -- spukhafte Fernwirkung "spooky action at a distance." ) He disliked that concept SO much he made a thought experiment to disprove it that was so convoluted and so paradoxical -- that it turned out to be empirically true. If that topic was "simply explained" without "dense" descriptions, then you are setting a bar much higher than you know.

On the other hand, he dared to be wrong. He was also quite able to accept his own error when it proved wrong -- in fact he welcomed it. I will patiently await some "deep discussion of the methods" illustrating mine.

FWIW, "the splitting effects of spiral energy rising and falling and entering and leaving all at the same time" "aiki-age rising energy; Aiki-sage sinking and sending over energy; winding energy joining the two up and down and in and out." -- those are ALL in this one straightforward figure I have pointed to before (and its cousin with the stresses more detailed).

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...9&d=1215185239

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...5&d=1214887302

The mechanical words I use apply to those figures, and relate them to other equally simple models of modes of action that, while superficially seeming different, are deeply related -- But forget the words and simply see where the joint actions occur and how they relate -- but if you have eyes yet will not see it, I can't help that.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 10-07-2009 at 09:29 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:38 AM   #177
MM
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Wow, this is still going on?

Just to throw this out there:

Here's what I said in 11/2005 (link to e-budo post) wrt some of the videos and hype floating around the forums:

Sound familiar?

Here's what I wrote in 11/2006 after getting back from Japan and meeting *and feeling* Ark and Rob (link to post)

The important thing was that I went and checked it out and then changed how I was training.

It's actually kind of an interesting thread, partly because there are lots of the usual suspects (Rob, Dan, Mike, Ron, Doug, David O...) but also because it was four years ago and it's basically the same discussion that's been going on ever since.

David, I am curious if feeling Ark and working the Aunkai stuff shed some light on some of our past discussions where it really felt we were talking past each other?
Hi Chris,

Yeah, I remember reading online and thinking that this stuff, "IT", was close to what I was doing or had done. But, as someone else has said, "I didn't know that I didn't know". "IT" wasn't even close to what I was doing or had done. And the IT I'm doing now isn't even close to what I had used for training methodology before.

I think the measure of someone training in the martial arts isn't taken when he (or she) is on the top tier, or snug within an organization, but when he encounters something outside the comfort zone - something that disrupts that comfort zone.

Anyway, as we both found out, getting hands on experience made all the difference. Online was nothing.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:16 AM   #178
DH
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Re: What is "IT"?

Hi Bud
I agree with the comfort zone idea but that applies to anything doesn't it; BJJ against a stand up fighter, judo against aikido, anything out of "your" world shaking up your world.
What is truly so profound about IT is being able to go to all the traditional arts and have them comment on the immediate utility and across the board applicability, and then walk into MMA and hear the same things; How are you so strong? Why can't I throw you? Why are my efforts in throwing you throwing me? How can you hit with such power?
IME, that makes IT, truly ...the "it" we were all looking for, the magic that made the exceptional men, the legends-who they were. Sadly, I think we have too many "experts" who hold the keys to things not really worthy of a twenty year effort, who never really got "it" themselves.

We have all heard stories of IP/Aiki being the real difference in your older years. Most readers assign that to any number of particular "beliefs"; either the students are being polite, or it's just an excuse for the aging warrior syndrome, or it's just an older guy reaching the point where he fine-tuned his game. I think few truly realize just how real "IT" can be and actually is.

For those training internal power/ aiki I hope they don't fall into the same trap- only seeing it in defined arts, or ways of executing singular arts waza and methods. Nothing can be further from the truth. I would hate to see It fall into that same limited view.
We were handicaped by teachers who had that same view, and indoctrinated students into that ignorance, I hope to show people a better way to "see" it. Allowing adepts to preserve a tradition (which is of course fine) but them to see that the aiki, the magic in the arts is far past a single art and arrive at a mastery that is deep within them. Shu Ha Ri in a very real concept.

IP/.Aiki is universal, and immediate and the only way to prove that to yourself and make a measure of your efforts is outside your own door. Go to other dojo's, ICMA schools and MMA schools and play. We have all had enough of fantasy and daydreaming of the masters who brought us these arts, quite another to dare to believe it was real, and more importantly CAN be real today. IOW, it's one thing to sit in a comfy chair and read stories of Takeda and Ueshiba in their old age tuning and handling much younger and tougher men. It's quite another to be living it.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-07-2009 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:18 AM   #179
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

Erick -
[spoiler]
You seem to keep asking for feedback... here goes.
it is my best:

Do i understand right that this is your best kick at the can at explaining it?
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...336#post210336

Do you think it more appropriate that you start a new thread to discuss it? Or continue in that one? Maybe things would be different now-a-days... (discussion wise)..things seem more open. I think that what Robert R and David O said are because you insist on talking about *your* understanding in all the threads. Is that for you, or for all of us? if it's the latter, erick mead; your love is like bad medicine.

Regarding tone;
Drop the given assumption that you are correct. It is very off putting. (Maybe i'm doing that very thing here in this post. I do not mean it that way...just trying to give you honest feedback) You should have, in the back of your mind, the tiniest possibility that ‘you may be wrong'. There is a way, a tone, and a set of assumptions going into presenting an alternate theory (especially to a panel of ‘peers')… To ignore established standards may become profitable; but there is a way to go about things properly. It can get flat out rude otherwise in a discussion. A diatribe is something else (i know it! i know it!). Usually your stuff comes in the middle of another conversation.


Your explanations have changed (/evolved?) over time. What else would you change in, or add to, that model?
What i took:
-i assume fascial matrix is the 'torsion-tube' itself.
-Your lissajous (i.e. flowing continuous lines) imply connection and a closed circuit in the body.
-Joining at cusps smoothly is an important phenomena related to preserving and reversing momentum.
-Double/multiple pendulum (bone/joints) is obviously related in the body; and to bodies interacting. The richness and complexity that comes out from that model (i.e. momentum ratios, phase angle,etc) is obviously relevant to motion and slinging weights around.
-Yin Yang is analogized/literally equated to compression and tension lines.
-The lines must implicitly point to the tendon-muscle channels in the body.
-When you talk about shear i think you are talking about the way nage connects in his own body to uke and also how uke himself is loaded by nage.
I think that is what you are saying; my apologies if i misread you. What do i miss? Please use simple words (and pls. don't answer here!). With respect; i do not know just how much is new here...some of these things are fundamental and universal. Of course ..some may be wrong..specifically in my translation of your 'work'. this is IMO and betrays my level of (mis)understanding everywhere. Obviously you have described some very overt geometric simplifications. I think the richness of these ideas and skill with them (again; i do not think they are new) spring forth from the truly unique geometric considerations of the human body. Taking the actual deep body knowledge into account and practice. Not vague TTT (Torsion Tube Theory) land Also; notwithstanding the truly non-linear issues of and related to human-tissue, muscle and skill with those things themselves..the model neglects those. completely. i suspect those to be of high importance...and not so nearly easily made 'analogous' to a simplified model... The richness is obscured by the complexity. (actual body geometry and characteristics of muscle/tendon and what body skill adds to the equation)

Things i would look for in your future explanations:
-simplicity.
-attempt to communicate. aim 1st year physics TA
-preditctive value
-humility
-judgement of where and when to interject TTT -related comments
-what is ki?
-why dantien?
-why intent? Why is this given a central role.
-what is the nature of the changed body; and what are the body requirements to 'do' or transform forces in your torsion tube model? How come you don't talk specifics? Actually i don't think you talk about changing the body at all.
-what of training?
-what exercises or practices will help do aiki?
-should we look to you as an authority on this? Are you a teacher? Or are you just trying to figure it out? should I try to 'suck your model dry' for relevant nuggets? Who showed you this? I know you are bright and observant..but do you know that you've felt it for sure? Who?
-why is meditation important? (just to get out of your own way?)
-why is this work intrinsically dangerous
-how is this so easily overlooked? How can it be hidden in plain sight...isn't your stuff kinematics applied to a body under load?
-how is your work advance the state of the art understanding?
-why is visualization important?
-divestiture of yourself from 'your' model. your model was clearly compiled and forged from things you learned online from others. be honest about it. there is no shame. we see further because we stand on the shoulders of giants who came before us. and shared with us. "Your Model" is not your own anyway so why beat us up with your posts? that is how it feels.
-is the model descriptive/phenomenlogical only? Does it make predictions? Will it help someone to attain IT or IS if they do not have it? Does it imply a method to train? Do you have aiki now? All these questions fall out naturally; im' not trying to be a bully.
-is the model merely descriptive/analog or does it contain how-to? surely there are some parallels between 'your' and 'traditional'...but what is the model's chief value? is your theory falsifiable? that is a chief desirable property that many theories lack...like, for instance, string theory and evolution. Maybe meeting someone with the skills would do the trick? Didn't Dan cordially invite you? I'm almost sure it's not a trap ...

anyway; I know you didn't ask me; but maybe this is of some use to you.

Oh yeah; last but not least:
You have a current open personal invitation from someone purported to have *high levels of skill*. My friend, this is exceedingly rare....why are you ignoring it (again?)? It seems they are willing to *give it to you*. ..are you so proud/invested/stubborn that you will only accept or rather take it on your own terms? ..In other's discussions in your terms, nomenclature and models on everyone else's time?

Let this have an end. It had a beginning and a middle. All things must have an end? Can this too? Mercy me!

I YEILD !

i agree Mark; the web is a waste of time. and i've only myself to blame gah! poetic justice i think.

[/spoiler]
sorry for the OT post.
Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 10-07-2009 at 10:25 AM. Reason: to add more poop
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:11 AM   #180
David Orange
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Erick -
[spoiler]
You seem to keep asking for feedback... here goes.
it is my best:
That was one of the best posts I've read and in fact proves that the internet is not at total waste of time. You even helped put Erick's comments into a context that brings out a deeper meaning in them. Very nicely done.

And you are very precise in identifying the most important point: Dan has made a very generous offer to meet personally with Erick and show him directly what IT really is. And he doesn't have to go to Boston to get it!

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:42 AM   #181
Mark Freeman
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Your comment that "you don't see it as much of a big thing" confuses me, because it *is* a big thing. Perhaps you wouldn't experience it as such, if all you know is for it to be present all the time, but still ...
Hi Joep,

please see my reply to Dan's post below, regarding this exercise.

Quote:
Since I'll be there too, would you mind showing me the exercise you mentioned in the post I quoted above?
Great, I look forward to meeting you there. As for showing you the exercise, if we get the chance, sure, why not. However, we are there to get whatever we can from Mike and maybe he will be doing this particular thing or something similar. We'll find out soon.

See you there,

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:26 PM   #182
David Orange
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Erick -
[spoiler]
You seem to keep asking for feedback... here goes.
it is my best:
Again, Josh, a very good post.

After reading Erick's comments in your link, I posted to that thread as well.

I would also advise others to have a look at Erick's description in the first post of that thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...436#post242436

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:34 PM   #183
Mark Freeman
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
If you concentrate more on how you hold energy in your body and move it, many things -effects- happen to forces coming in on you. These "things or "effects" become the essence of many waza.
Hi Dan,

This is where I have finally got to in my practice, the external form of the waza is of interest, I have to try and convey it to others as accurately as I can. Most of my focus now is on the where and how of what is going on internally when performing the waza. My experience is that it is all in the mind, all in the centre, all in the body. I'm still learning, though and do not purport to be an expert.

Quote:
Think of it this way; if you have energy going up/ down, side /side, forward /back, and in and out in all directions, then there is no plane or planar aspect to you that is unsupported. Your are "held" in stasis in movement. Any force coming in to you is sent to a path of your choosing almost automatically. Either by will or by "feel" from constant training. There are many complexities to add to this with movement and means to train the body to move-these are not all the same nor are they all equal either. Some are better -more universal- ways to fight than others.
Agreed, I like the explanation, however, I am not looking for any way to fight others. I appreciate that your experience is much wider than mine and that you practice with folk who are into the fighting aspects. Your internal skills are almost certainly more developed than mine. Hopefully one day I will get to learn from you ( I still wont be interested in fighting though )

Quote:
So taking Shioda's chest bump or any number of directed or "overt" force redirections is just simply another way to move -not a "technique." I'm not a big fan of that move simply because while being "correct," it's really rather retarded for real fighting. Its nothing more than another Ki trick with traing crash test dummy. The same body movement is just as real in grappling its just not as visible, or dramatic in a real fight. Moreover, Shioda could never pull that crap on someone with decent internal skills, so more serious means would be called for.
I agree with the above too, I only use it to emphasise a point during a ki development lesson. I don't see it as aikido either, it is a bit of a trick, but does require complete co-ordination coupled with good timing, so as a training exercise it has its uses. There are many other ways of dealing with that particular attack.

Quote:
And that leads me to my final comment on "not that big of a deal." I continue to caution people not to judge if the person demonstrating these things is not that good or just so-so. Meet someone who can demonstrate internal power to the extent that it is "a big deal" and very obvious. Why? Because it is a big deal, and will change your martial arts forever.
My own teacher still gives me enough to be impressed with, he doesn't use any of the terminology used in these discussions though, but he can do things with me that still have me scratching my head, after I pick myself up off the mat He definitely has 'something' and bucket loads of it. I want what he has and I believe I am getting there, slowly.

I am looking forward to the weekend and to getting a different perspective on what I do and know. I hope to be impressed, I hope to learn, I'm sure it will be an interesting experience.

Quote:
Anyway, I hope you have fun
Dan
Me too!

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:00 PM   #184
jss
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I agree with the above too, I only use it to emphasise a point during a ki development lesson. I don't see it as aikido either, it is a bit of a trick, but does require complete co-ordination coupled with good timing, so as a training exercise it has its uses. There are many other ways of dealing with that particular attack.
The timing aspect is the main reason I prefer to see these kind of tricks demonstrated starting from a static position. One less variable to obfuscate things.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:07 AM   #185
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Yeah, I remember reading online and thinking that this stuff, "IT", was close to what I was doing or had done. But, as someone else has said, "I didn't know that I didn't know". "IT" wasn't even close to what I was doing or had done. And the IT I'm doing now isn't even close to what I had used for training methodology before.
I was watching a video the other night of a fairly good Xingyi practitioner (to use and example that no one in Aikido will feel offended by) and he had pretty good I.S. power, obviously. I've heard that this man is a very good fighter and can seriously kick butt. But I could see how he developed his power and used it in most cases.

The levels of internal power can be equated to Shu-Ha-Ri in many Chinese arts, where they say: Obvious Power, Concealed Power, and Mysterious Power. Of course a person who only uses normal strength (even one who can fight well) is not even in the categorization. The man I watched was very strong, but he was more or less someone with a combination of obvious and concealed power; not mysterious power.

My point that I'm slowly working toward is that a person with no I.S. skills can't really conceive of I.S. skills.... he only knows what his own abilities allow him to grasp. Similarly, a person developing I.S. skills only truly understands from within his personal skills and the grasp of higher skills can be equally blinded from below. A person does not "know I.S."... he only knows up to the level that he can do. Hence Ueshiba was not just talking idly when he discussed how long his journey had been.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 10-08-2009, 11:15 AM   #186
DH
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
1.... Similarly, a person developing I.S. skills only truly understands from within his personal skills and the grasp of higher skills can be equally blinded from below.
2...A person does not "know I.S."... he only knows up to the level that he can do.
3....Hence Ueshiba was not just talking idly when he discussed how long his journey had been.
Nor was Ueshiba speaking definitively. He only knew what he knew. I never once considered him an expert either. I mean being polite and all -Ueshiba's demonstrations aren't even close to a complete compliment of skills; I have seen him sway, be single side weighted, hip driven, among other things. He had a lot of power no question, but there's much more to the complete skills than that.

Anyway, I have always found it amusing to see Ueshiba held up as the pinnacle. But given the talking points, it is understandable if the people from categories #1 and #2 view him that way. Personally -as is obvious over the years- I never have. I always considered him as one of the Daito ryu greats that went his own way. Another example of the Daito ryu method at work. And even then, and probably by choice; not as complete a compliment of skills in execution as others in DR or the ICMA.

Fighting aspects can confuse the issue. But none of Ueshiba's or Takeda's fights were recorded so we will never know about those guys. And being that Japanese like the Uke /shite model (a huge mistake in my view) we have no data I would like to see. Playing with the “straights” is a cake walk for someone with good IS so I dismiss any notion of higher level work such as IP to IP.

As for being able to feel or sense things. I’m not going to take part in admonishing Aikido teachers (with Judo, Karate and BBJ backgrounds) and many years of experience in Martial arts; that they "cannot tell the difference" between external and internal when sparring with someone. a) They are fully capable of determining if it a) feels like sparring with all the other external artists they know or b) things are happening to them that are completely outside their realm and comfort zone. c) Judging the “level” of IP skills they are experiencing can get confusing between IS and aiki, but since no one in aikido I have ever met or seen is capable of offering ant decent defense WITH IS they will never really be able to walk into higher levels yet. So bringing up the point and is extraneous B.S. at this point in time.
Since what they are facing in use neither looks or feels the same as normal fighting, and the fact that they always find themselves continually "behind" or too late to respond to what is happening to them, they know enough to know something radically different is happening to them. And that’s enough for now.

Nor am I going to take part in the idea of telling them what they should be looking for in their aikido and who can give it to them over others! I think they will do just fine on their own.
From my experience, once they got out and about, Aikido teachers are having a pretty good sense of what to choose and how to bring it into their aikido teachings, without some outside yahoo telling them what to do. Maybe since what I and some others do is the origin to their art -it helps. Anyway, I think certain comments lately smack of hubris. Aikido teachers are going to do just fine.

Fighting
Some have openly acknowledged fighting with these skills is not their interest and that certain Japanese and Chinese teachers threw them around with ease. I haven't had that experience in a long time in my forays; including Japanese and Chinese master level teachers. I wonder if talking down to people about fighting-who may well be your betters at actually using IP /Aiki in fighting is not the best way to go.
There are ways to move with internal power; lets say between method a. and b. that are correct for each particular method. When people move according to method a. they are “correct’ and true to that method, and thus exhibiting internal power. Method b. can be different in movement and the way it uses energy. And one may be superior to the other. There are lower and higher levels of skills even within single ICMA where the body is not even used the same from one level to the next. Moving the body with internal power and manipulating energy within you in ways that are “correct” is different between arts and one may be abso-freakin-lutely superior to the other in fighting.
Further fighting someone WITH IP is not the same as fighting the straights, nor is fighting with IP/ aiki against a good external fighter the same as the contending with the level of so-called “resistance” seen in the aiki arts.

I would simply repeat my oft written admonition to get out and feel as many people as you can, and then pick someone for a while. Not every person can size you up and pick you apart and actually help you long term. Fly-by-night teaching at seminars is not learning- and attending a few seminars and being told you have enough material to train yourself is ridiculous and obvious. Make connections and stick with a method for a while. Then while training a given method go out and about and meet everyone you can. Make sure to include ICMA teachers and ask to grapple or at least do push hands with them.
In time as your skills grow, you can go back out and explore again. In time, deeper methods of how to actually fight with IP and a development of IS will develop your abilities in a more complete manner and deepen your understanding in a way you will never attain in solo work and push hands. Lord knows push hands doesn't cut it.

As far as what "IT" is. I haven't read a single thing from anyone on Aikiweb that even begins to discuss IT in any depth. Don't listen to Mike; don't listen to me or to Ark or Rob as "your source." Information is fine but don't confuse head knowledge with expertise, don't confuse fighting skill with internal power.
As far as confusing information as real skill, or minimul skill as deeper skills- I have met several supposed experts in both the JMA and the ICMA who were anything but experts. I have also read looooong dissertations on ICMA that were fabulous. In one particular case the guy who wrote them- I went to his seminar. I think my wife could take him apart. And he is a lineage holder. I let him keep the money and I walked out. Some people "sound" really good but it may only appear that way.

Get out and find it, then test the information from everyone everywhere. Keep checking information and people out and let your own judgment be your guide. Contrary to the picture that some are painting here, even in the ICMA, there are many debates on developing IP and how to actually use it in conflict.
Check things out, then in years to come -come back here and tell me what you now think "IT" is
Good luck in your training
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-08-2009 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 10-08-2009, 11:33 AM   #187
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Nor was Ueshiba speaking definitively. He only knew what he knew. I never once considered him an expert either. I mean being polite and all -Ueshiba's demonstrations aren't even close to a complete compliment of skills; I have seen him sway, be single side weighted, hip driven, among other things. He had a lot of power no question, but there's much more to the complete skills than that.

Anyway, I have always found it amusing to see Ueshiba held up as the pinnacle.
I dunno... I'm not partisan for anyone, but I don't see any need for the constant trivializing of Ueshiba and his skills. Surely the topic of IS can be discussed without the constant "Ueshiba" implications or the "I" or "some people" stuff?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:26 AM   #188
stan baker
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Re: What is "IT"?

In the context of Shu- Ha-Ri who has or had mysterious power

stan
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:00 AM   #189
DH
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I dunno... I'm not partisan for anyone, but I don't see any need for the constant trivializing of Ueshiba and his skills.
FWIW
Mike Sigman
Neither am I partisan for, or against, anyone. Takeda and Ueshiba are both dead. I have better things to do and I am doing them. Were it to be proved that Ueshiba's skills came from something other than DR aiki- It wouldn't matter to me one bit; I would be discussing that. As it is, the only men with power who appeared in his time were all linked to…Takeda.
It's just the way it is.

To revisit the "supposed" and oft repeated "evolutionary" advancement of aikido over Daito ryu
1. No one in aikido is currently known to have any significant internal skills of the type being discussed here. And no one who has felt IP/ AIKI from men who have them is going to an Aikido teacher to learn these skills.
2. Instead Aikido people are going outside the art to learn aiki.
3. No one in Daito ryu is going to Aikido to find IP/ Aiki are they?

Trivializing Ueshiba
"Trivializing" is a word you attached to my suggestion that there is a more complete use of these skills than in what Ueshiba displayed. Comparisons and critiques are not so simplistic a concept, nor do they always polarize. There is a reason that Ueshiba may have chosen to express the art the way he did. It doesn't mean it's all he had or needed IN ORDER to display the art the way he did, nor does it mean it is trivial; either in concept or execution of that concept.
Then again, the entire framework of the Japanese Aiki arts (both DR and Aikido) is flawed in their approach and the effect on the execution of skills can be limiting. The Japanese arts are hamstrung by the training model of Uke / tori. A model, that will forever prevent the development of those deeper skills.
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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
.... Similarly, a person developing I.S. skills only truly understands from within his personal skills and the grasp of higher skills can be equally blinded from below. A person does not "know I.S."... he only knows up to the level that he can do. Hence Ueshiba was not just talking idly when he discussed how long his journey had been.
I think that explains why you "see" and talk about Ueshiba's skills so highly the way you do, and why I never have. IMO, you see him as "more complete" than he really was; I see him as just another step along the way. I let it go before because it served the purposes of bringing the discussion forward. It's gotten a bit out of hand lately with some of the repeated cautions and suggestions to the community. Pointing out what is missing and then showing them how to do it is as far as I am comfortable with going. I think the decision about just what belongs in aikido and where to get it is best left to those in the art.
We have Ikeda going to Karate, Ledyard to Daito ryu and Systema, others to Koryu. I think they are smart enough to figure things out for themselves without all this "cautioning."

Quote:
Surely the topic of IS can be discussed without the constant "Ueshiba" implications or the "I" or "some people" stuff?
Not really. No one is willing to discuss details of what they are doing publicly. So we only discuss the visual effects, or the body attributes attained. There are very few doing the work, so the references to "some people," "others" and "I' remain the only reference points in the dialogue.
At this juncture; the work "I" am discussing in the prescribed methods and areas "I" am using it in can only be discussed-by- me. I'm the only one "I" know of who is going in the direction I am heading in. If you can name any other man who has incorporated internal power /aiki (from the aiki arts) into successful testing with ICMA and Koryu adepts with weapons and with out, into twin sticks and other freestyle weapons work, and freestyle fighting in MMA...name him. I'd like to meet him.
The few I have met in the ICMA who actually had something-were more concerned with their tradtional arts. No on the aiki arts I have met has much by way of IP / aiki- and of them -very few are much interested in expressing it outside of their traditional arts either.
I took the next step- to evolve the aiki arts into something more than either DR or Aikido could ever have offered in their present form; IP/ aiki from within the aiki arts- expressed in a manner beyond the staid executions of its forebears; Daito ryu and Aikido into traditonal and modern combatives.
That's my "IT."
And it is something new.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-12-2009 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:34 AM   #190
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Re: What is "IT"?

I can't remember to which other country artist he was referring. But I remember when Garth Brooks said, "Whatever "it" is, he has "it." I think Brooks definitely has "it" too. His quote made me think for a little while. I think Aikido is an excellent way to find "it," but as Saotome writes in "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature," "[There are many paths to the top of Fujiyama (Fuji-san), but there is one summit - love]." Shihan's metaphor here has meant a great deal to me for a long time. Therefore I think Aikido training is one of the best routes, but there are people who have never heard of Mt. Fuji or Aikido, who still manage to find "it" in one way or another. Whatever the source of their positive spiritual outlook, a person filled with love and feelings of respect toward his/herself and others can find "it." I know from my experience that it is a narrow road, with people and even natural disasters who/which don't care if they bring you down on either side. I do know this much: anyone who strives to stay on not just the path of good, but the path of feeling good that coincides, can find it if they keep themselves in check when off it, or never leave it in the first place. It takes courage: big time courage, but the fruits of such a labor are as sweet and satisfying as they come.

Drew

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Old 10-12-2009, 10:07 AM   #191
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
I can't remember to which other country artist he was referring. But I remember when Garth Brooks said, "Whatever "it" is, he has "it." I think Brooks definitely has "it" too. His quote made me think for a little while. I think Aikido is an excellent way to find "it," but as Saotome writes in "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature," "[There are many paths to the top of Fujiyama (Fuji-san), but there is one summit - love]." Shihan's metaphor here has meant a great deal to me for a long time. Therefore I think Aikido training is one of the best routes, but there are people who have never heard of Mt. Fuji or Aikido, who still manage to find "it" in one way or another. Whatever the source of their positive spiritual outlook, a person filled with love and feelings of respect toward his/herself and others can find "it." I know from my experience that it is a narrow road, with people and even natural disasters who/which don't care if they bring you down on either side. I do know this much: anyone who strives to stay on not just the path of good, but the path of feeling good that coincides, can find it if they keep themselves in check when off it, or never leave it in the first place. It takes courage: big time courage, but the fruits of such a labor are as sweet and satisfying as they come.

Drew

Drew
I think perhaps you're confusing your own definition of "it" with the current thread topic of "IT", aka Internal Training. I've yet to find the latter "IT" in any aikido school. This kind of "IT", or Internal Training just isn't there. If you don't believe that, or can't understand that, I would suggest getting your hands on someone who has "aiki", the body skill.
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:02 AM   #192
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Re: What is "IT"?

The argument in hand is very old and the points in dispute remain the same, in every case:

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And what is my sort? you will ask. I am one of those who are very willing to be refuted if I say anything which is not true, and very willing to refute any one else who says what is not true, and quite as ready to be refuted as to refute-I for I hold that this is the greater gain of the two, just as the gain is greater of being cured of a very great evil than of curing another. For I imagine that there is no evil which a man can endure so great as an erroneous opinion about the matters of which we are speaking ...

... But I consider that nothing worth speaking of will have been effected by me unless I make you the one witness of my words; nor by you, unless you make me the one witness of yours; no matter about the rest of the world. For there are two ways of refutation, one which is yours and that of the world in general; but mine is of another sort-let us compare them, and see in what they differ.

... Now there is no nobler enquiry, ..., than that which you censure me for making, ... For be assured that if I err in my own conduct I do not err intentionally, but from ignorance. Do not then desist from advising me, now that you have begun, until I have learned clearly what this is which I am to practice, and how I may acquire it. And if you find me assenting to your words, and hereafter not doing that to which I assented, call me "dolt," and deem me unworthy of receiving further instruction.

.... Then I will proceed, and ask whether you also agree with me, and whether you think that I spoke the truth when I further said ... that cookery in my opinion is only an experience, and not an art at all; and that whereas medicine is an art, and attends to the nature and constitution of the patient, and has principles of action and reason in each case, cookery in attending upon pleasure never regards either the nature or reason of that pleasure to which she devotes herself, but goes straight to her end, nor ever considers or calculates anything, but works by experience and routine, and just preserves the recollection of what she has usually done when producing pleasure.

,,, Will not the good man, who says whatever he says with a view to the best, speak with a reference to some standard and not at random; just as all other artists, whether the painter, the builder, the shipwright, or any other look all of them to their own work, and do not select and apply at random what they apply, but strive to give a definite form to it? The artist disposes all things in order, and compels the one part to harmonize and accord with the other part, until he has constructed a regular and systematic whole; and this is true of all artists, and in the same way the trainers and physicians, of whom we spoke before, give order and regularity to the body: do you deny this?
.
So, with regard to "What IT is," the (literally) age-old question remains:

Are we interested in cookery -- or art ?

(quote fr. Plato - Gorgias)

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:07 AM   #193
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think that explains why you "see" and talk about Ueshiba's skills so highly the way you do, and why I never have.
Dan, once again.... quit asserting what I think or see unless you have some quotes, rather than guesswork. Show the quotes.

Because Ueshiba was a little shakey when he was in his 80's, don't make broad suppositions about his skills in his prime and assume that you're in a position to judge him. Let's wait and see what you look like in your 80's.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:30 AM   #194
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Then again, the entire framework of the Japanese Aiki arts (both DR and Aikido) is flawed in their approach and the effect on the execution of skills can be limiting. The Japanese arts are hamstrung by the training model of Uke / tori. A model, that will forever prevent the development of those deeper skills.
I don't know...I did Judo for a long time before Aikido. I think there is something to be said for actually learning how to do the technique properly before you do randori. You can have all the IS in the world but if you don't do the technique right you're just one step up from the person that is using conventional strength. And before we get to the 'there is no technique' argument....that only seems to happen after the person has spent the last 20 years practicing techniques.

As far as fighting goes...If the method of transmission of kata wasn't effective at a time when you died if you sucked it would have, well...died out. If it's not working today then people are probably not practicing the kata properly. Giving the fact that 'aiki' is lost/hard to find/hidden in plain sight, it would be not be surprising if the proper execution of kata and the proper uke/tori relationship is lost for most.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:08 PM   #195
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
I don't know...I did Judo for a long time before Aikido. I think there is something to be said for actually learning how to do the technique properly before you do randori. You can have all the IS in the world but if you don't do the technique right you're just one step up from the person that is using conventional strength. And before we get to the 'there is no technique' argument....that only seems to happen after the person has spent the last 20 years practicing techniques.

As far as fighting goes...If the method of transmission of kata wasn't effective at a time when you died if you sucked it would have, well...died out. If it's not working today then people are probably not practicing the kata properly. Giving the fact that 'aiki' is lost/hard to find/hidden in plain sight, it would be not be surprising if the proper execution of kata and the proper uke/tori relationship is lost for most.
Mr. Roeser
If you want to switch the discussion to normal fighting- then I agree with every thing you wrote. But I am not talking about that aspect of training at all.
That was not my point.
There are deeper levels of using IP/aiki that are never going to be attained without crossing hands with those with IP /aiki who are resisting you with IP/aiki. It can be mild; such as in push hands, or more severe as in grappling. But the critical factor is not in using it all the time with the straights, but rather with those who train IP/Aiki. The reason is that it forces you to have to deal with trained power and skill coming in and going out; with someone who will absorb your force and redirect it and use it back at you. This has not one thing to so with typical dojo work in aikido that I have ever felt or seen. To begin with you do it with someone who has skills of an unusual, or exceptional nature and go up from there with someone who knows what they're doing.
Doing aiki on an uke will never get you there.
Using IP aiki in MMA is much better.
IP to IP is better still.
I have never seen, read about or heard of; Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba, or Hisa doing that.
Which is why their arts look like they do and why their students are limited in their understanding in that way. Both arts had their own perogatives and motives in what they were trying to accomplish. Most of it was based on a traditional approach. There are other ways to train.

There things that are not being said here that some people need to start to take notice to and read between the lines. The reason I keep advocating that aikido teachers start considering what I am saying is that ya'll aren't doing too well when you are finally facing real aiki are you?
Aikido aiki is just not working out to well. There is a deeper level of Japanese aiki that is quite simply handing the senior guys in aikido their collective butts, over and over. If you think its going to get any better with certain Japanese teachers you are in for big surprise The reason is you are never going to learn it the way your teachers told you to practice it. Let's face it -it hasn't worked- and its not going to work. There are better, smarter ways to train "IT" that do work every time and will indeed produce IP/ aiki that functions on a world class level. Plain and simple. I don't blame the teachers. It's not their fault. They're Japanese. Several of the more prominant Japanese teachers have openly admitted to their senior guys that they don't even understand how to teach it any other way. No foul there.
Bear in mind that as we speak there are many aikido teachers who already get it and have seriously altered their training. As most state, they will NEVER go back to training aikido the way they did under their Japanese teachers. This is simply a smarter way to train then the Japanese have discovered or used.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-12-2009 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:55 PM   #196
rroeserr
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That was not my point.
There are deeper levels of using IP/aiki that are never going to be attained without crossing hands with those with IP /aiki who are resisting you with IP/aiki. It can be mild; such as in push hands, or more severe as in grappling. But the critical factor is not in using it all the time with the straights, but rather with those who train IP/Aiki. The reason is that it forces you to have to deal with trained power and skill coming in and going out; with someone who will absorb your force and redirect it and use it back at you. This has not one thing to so with typical dojo work in aikido that I have ever felt or seen. To begin with you do it with someone who has skills of an unusual, or exceptional nature and go up from there with someone who knows what they're doing.
Doing aiki on an uke will never get you there.
Using IP aiki in MMA is much better.
IP to IP is better still.
I have never seen, read about or heard of; Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba, or Hisa doing that.
Which is why their arts look like they do and why their students are limited in their understanding in that way. Both arts had their own perogatives and motives in what they were trying to accomplish. Most of it was based on a traditional approach. There are other ways to train.

There things that are not being said here that some people need to start to take notice to and read between the lines. The reason I keep advocating that aikido teachers start considering what I am saying is that ya'll aren't doing too well when you are finally facing real aiki are you?
Aikido aiki is just not working out to well. There is a deeper level of Japanese aiki that is quite simply handing the senior guys in aikido their collective butts, over and over. If you think its going to get any better with certain Japanese teachers you are in for big surprise The reason is you are never going to learn it the way your teachers told you to practice it. Let's face it -it hasn't worked- and its not going to work. There are better, smarter ways to train "IT" that do work every time and will indeed produce IP/ aiki that functions on a world class level. Plain and simple. I don't blame the teachers. It's not their fault. They're Japanese. Several of the more prominant Japanese teachers have openly admitted to their senior guys that they don't even understand how to teach it any other way. No foul there.
Bear in mind that as we speak there are many aikido teachers who already get it and have seriously altered their training. As most state, they will NEVER go back to training aikido the way they did under their Japanese teachers. This is simply a smarter way to train then the Japanese have discovered or used.
Cheers
Dan
Hi Dan,

I understood your point - but - I think Randori and kata are two sides of the same coin. This is my understanding of how kata is supposed to work: You start with a semi-compliant person and work your way up to full resistance (which should include aiki). It's very hard to do a technique properly starting off with the person blasting you. I did that in Judo (showed how to fall, briefly shown a couple of throws and turned loose), no desire to do that anymore. I'd like to make sure that I'm precise, and efficient. Further, I don't know how other people do it, but the waza actually has to work, the person just doesn't fall down/dive bunny. After you get decent at the waza (and it becomes habitual) then you do randori. I don't really see what is wrong with that.

I can't comment on what other people do/their ability, only what I'm being taught.

Later,
Robert
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:04 PM   #197
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There are deeper levels of using IP/aiki that are never going to be attained without crossing hands with those with IP /aiki who are resisting you with IP/aiki.
I hear this argument all the time and find myself wondering... if a person will "never" attain these skills without crossing hands with someone who already has "the stuff," where did "the stuff" come from in the first place? Chicken? Egg? Tengu?

As far as "resisting" goes, Am I correct to assume that you mean "not letting you move as you wish?"

Michael Hacker
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:36 PM   #198
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
I hear this argument all the time and find myself wondering... if a person will "never" attain these skills without crossing hands with someone who already has "the stuff," where did "the stuff" come from in the first place? Chicken? Egg? Tengu?
No one knows for sure. I think it was an evolution and growth that occurred with those doing the work looking for those who were also doing the work and testing each other-thus neccessity being the other of invention the smart ones kept re-tooling as it were and refined their skiil sets.

Quote:
As far as "resisting" goes, Am I correct to assume that you mean "not letting you move as you wish?"
I mean fighting. I mean broken bones, black eyes, knockouts and bruises; kicks and punches and set ups for throws with same. Is there another type of resistance I am unaware of?
After that push hands, dojo testing and traditional arts aint much to handle.
Of course that isn't how you learn. You learn solo, then with resistance; very gently-VERY gently with thousands of repetitions, then a slow build up of resistance from someone who has experience and can show success in teaching people. No one -has-to fight, Please understand I am not saying that in the least.However, it should be pointed out that the old guys who developed "IT" were always testing it on others weren't they?

What does it say about those who do "IT" today and are not doing so? I don't begrudge them their own interest, I just get, sick and tired of people down-playing the skill set of fighting with IP/ aiki or trying to reduce it as a side-line issue of lesser worth because they cannot or are uninterested in going there. While it is admittedly a side-line issue it none-the-less is a highly refined skill set. To use IP/ aiki under the stress of MMA is extremely difficult to do and took thousands of hours of failures and experimentation to have developed it. Moreover, it is so rare these days that the men doing that work outside of traditional arts- are few and far between.

I have continuously pointed out-Takeda was an MMA guy, and so was Sagawa, and Ueshiba. Who are we? People content to pick up the scraps from the table and never truly daring to come into our own.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:51 PM   #199
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No one knows for sure. I think it was an evolution ....Dan
Thread hijack alert! Forget what - why is IT?

If aiki is so hard to see, learn, etc then how did it ever come into being? What evolutionary advantage can be gained if the cost is so high? Perhaps a fortuitous development with nothing to do with evolution (spandrels, exaptation anyone?) ... certainly behhoves one to take advantage of such a gift.

I ponder therfore I am ponderous.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 10-14-2009, 02:09 PM   #200
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Is there another type of resistance I am unaware of?
I would suggest that what many people in Aikido(tm) think when they hear "resistance" is "grab 'em really hard and don't let 'em move."

Michael Hacker
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