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Old 08-24-2009, 04:46 AM   #1
stevenaiki
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Tenshin, Tenkai??

Plz help me.
I don`t kown what the different between it?
What`s the tenshin, tenkai? How use it? What uses it for?

Thank you very much! plz
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:36 AM   #2
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Tenchin is usually referred to in English as heaven and earth. Tenchinage would be heaven and earth throw, where one hand takes uke's balance low, and the other takes uke's balance high, kind of splitting their center. It's often shown as a very soft throw, but it can be amazingly powerfull as well.

Tenkai / tenkan usually referres to turning or pivoting. Usually in Aikido people will enter and penetrate through the balance point of their partner, or enter and turn, redirecting their partner's power around them.

You should try looking these terms up on wikipedia...there are often reasonable basic deffinitions there.

Best,
Ron (all of this can be style dependant as well)

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 08-24-2009 at 08:42 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:50 AM   #3
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Quote:
Steven Nguyen wrote: View Post
Plz help me.
I don`t kown what the different between it?
What`s the tenshin, tenkai? How use it? What uses it for?
If you are referering to Aikido tai sabaki, tenshin may refer to a front foot step back at a 45 degree angle. It is usually used as a defensive move against yokomenuchi attacks. Tenkai is a pivot on the balls of the feet used for ushiro tsuki with a jo or it can be
used in a technique like shomenuchi iriminage to shift the hips without having to step forward or switch the feet.
Best wishes,
Jorge

Last edited by akiy : 08-24-2009 at 11:25 AM.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:24 AM   #4
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Hi
Quote:
Steven Nguyen wrote: View Post
Plz help me.
I don`t kown what the different between it?
What`s the tenshin, tenkai? How use it? What uses it for?

Thank you very much! plz
"tenshin" is not the same as "tenchi"

tenshin is a movement, a footwork in which lead uke around you.
tenkan is a movement, a footwork, by which you get out of the way of uke.

for tenkan you pivot just on the front foot.
for tenshin you bring your feet together, give aditional atemi, pivot on the foot which has been the rear one before. So you pivot on the other foot as fo tenkan. While doing this you lead uke around you.

In the books of the present doshu you can see it well described.

Carsten
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:52 AM   #5
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Hi

"tenshin" is not the same as "tenchi"

tenshin is a movement, a footwork in which lead uke around you.
tenkan is a movement, a footwork, by which you get out of the way of uke.

for tenkan you pivot just on the front foot.
for tenshin you bring your feet together, give aditional atemi, pivot on the foot which has been the rear one before. So you pivot on the other foot as fo tenkan. While doing this you lead uke around you.

In the books of the present doshu you can see it well described.

Carsten
I think we need to give up on this because we all have differing understanding of certain words and there are some problems going on here. Ron assumed that by Tenshin, Steven meant the technique, Tenshinage. I think that in the last post Carsten thought that Steven meant tenkan by the word tenkai. Steven actually wrote the word tenkai.Those are two different words but now I realize that even Steven may have meant tenkan by the word tenkai so Carsten may have actually been answering the real question!
Best,
Jorge

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:03 PM   #6
akiy
 
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote: View Post
Ron assumed that by Tenshin, Steven meant the technique, Tenshinage.
If we're talking about the "heaven and earth" throw, my preferred transliteration of the Japanese name would be "tenchi nage." If there were a technique named after the tenshin footwork, then I would write that as "tenshin nage" (with or without the space). The Japanese name of the "heaven and earth" throw (tenchi nage) does not include "tenshin."

The term tenkai (転回) basically means "revolve and revolve." Tenkan (転換)basically means "revolve and interchange."

Here is the AikiWeb AIkiWiki entry on tenkan:
http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Tenkan

... and the AikiWeb AikiWiki entry on tenshin:
http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Tenshin

I am curious to know if anyone here can delineate the difference between "tenkan" and "tenkai."

-- Jun

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Old 08-24-2009, 12:19 PM   #7
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

And I have no idea what the original poster was actually asking, so I just took my best shot

Hi Jun, no, I certainly cannot. But I'd be interested as well. I do recognize what others gave as an example of Tenshin...I just have never called it that. I do think I've heard others name it that way though.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:32 PM   #8
Jeff Scheurer
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

I believe, according to Doshu's "Best Aikido" book, tenshin is a movement where nage turns 180 degrees, leading uke in a circle. A good example would be a flowing Ikkyo from a straight grab where nage cuts down on the inside of their elbow, and then pivots180 degrees before applying the Ikkyo.
Tenkai is when nage steps under uke's arm, also from a straight grab, as in uchi kaiten nage. FWIW!
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:39 PM   #9
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Hey Jeff, hope all is well!
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:45 PM   #10
Jeff Scheurer
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Hey Ron! Things are going well, I hope the same for you! Will we see you when Sensei Stevens comes this year?
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:05 PM   #11
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
If we're talking about the "heaven and earth" throw, my preferred transliteration of the Japanese name would be "tenchi nage." If there were a technique named after the tenshin footwork, then I would write that as "tenshin nage" (with or without the space). The Japanese name of the "heaven and earth" throw (tenchi nage) does not include "tenshin."

The term tenkai (転回) basically means "revolve and revolve." Tenkan (転換)basically means "revolve and interchange."

Here is the AikiWeb AIkiWiki entry on tenkan:
http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Tenkan

... and the AikiWeb AikiWiki entry on tenshin:
http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Tenshin

I am curious to know if anyone here can delineate the difference between "tenkan" and "tenkai."

-- Jun
From a 2003 aikiweb thread:

"04-27-2003, 03:53 PM #5
John Riggs Username: aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
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Posts: 1,576

Offline In Doshu's book New Aikido foot work in general is referred to as unsoku. The book Aikido refers to footwork as Ashi-sabaki. The categories seem to be as follows

Ayumi Ashi=basic step. This appears to be the typical foot work used in many styles of karate where one slides the back foot up to the front foot and then steps forward (sort of a zig zag). Aikido calls this "walking" except the toes are pointed outward.

Tsugi Ashi=sliding step or shuffle step by sliding the back foot up to the front foot tand then step forward on the front foot without chaning hanmi.

Okuri Ashi=sending step=the only difference I can see on page 29 of New Aikido is the stance is a little wider with the step up.

TENKAI ASHI=pivot, pivot on the feet so you face 180 in the opposite direction (Aikido) New aikido seems to put this in the body movement category which is just referred to as sabaki (tai sabaki in Aikido).

KAITEN ASHI=step forward and then pivot 180 degrees (Aikido)-no definition in New Aikido.

TENKAI ASHI=pivot from one hanmi to the opposite hanmi or oblique stance (Aikido). Called a revoling turn (Tenkai) in New Aikido and is in the body movement category as a revolving turn-this is the turn from kaitennage (uchi version).

TENKAN ASHI=pivot with back step (Aikido). Just called TENKAN in New Aikido and is a body movement. When practicing with a partner it becomes TAI NO TENKAN HO (body turning) (Aikido) and Katate-dori Tenkan (New Aikido).

TENSHIN=sweeping body movement. This is the movement of yokomenuchi shihonage where you step to the inside and switch feet

Are we confused yet? I think things seem to be evolving in terms of terminology and categorization (old books are different)."

Best,
Jorge

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 08-24-2009, 02:07 PM   #12
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

In our dojo, tenkai is used for a turn on the spot where you don't step just turn on the balls of the feet, like in one of the descriptions above. (To be completely accurate usually there's a small step with the front foot first to free that foot and to have some irimi in the movement). You could also say it's the same as the beginning of tenkan before one foot takes a step back, that's actually how we teach beginners.

But that's just us, anybody else better ask their own teachers.

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:35 PM   #13
stevenaiki
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Thank you plenty more.
I am confusion between tenkai and adenoid vegetation tenkan; tenshin tenchi.
Neither know I can understand tenshin and tenkai is 2 forms but does end belong directly to tenkan?
Because techniques Akido visibility is only pantoscopic by Irimi and Tenkan, Yes like that in case?
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Old 08-25-2009, 02:33 AM   #14
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Quote:
Steven Nguyen wrote: View Post
Thank you plenty more.
I am confusion between tenkai and adenoid vegetation tenkan; tenshin tenchi.
Neither know I can understand tenshin and tenkai is 2 forms but does end belong directly to tenkan?
Because techniques Akido visibility is only pantoscopic by Irimi and Tenkan, Yes like that in case?
転 ten - turning around, rotate
転換 tenkan - convert, divert
転回 tenkai - turn, rotation, (revolution)

So tenka and tenkai are most used synonymously to describe the same thing.
But tenkan discribes, what is done to uke, to his ki, to his movement. - Or what is happening.
tenkan discribes the movement of nage. Or how it is happening.

?

Let's say "irimi" is one step forward, to enter into ukes sphere.
Let's say "tenkan / tenkai" is a turning movement.

"tenshin" combines both: A little step into uke (irimi), not to far. Getting contact and then turning (tenkan / tenkai) guiding uke with you, around you.

gyaku hanmi katate dori ikkyo omote0:17 - 0:40.
It's not perfect to see but that's the movement called "tenshin" in our aikido. (and in the books of doshu.)

I didn't know the meaning given by the AikiWeb AikiWiki entry.
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Old 08-26-2009, 02:31 AM   #15
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

and interesting:

shin - 身 in 転身 - tenshin means body, oneself. The other reading is mi, like in hanmi.

And while 回 - kai means something like recurrence, round after round, 換 - ka(e) is more about transformation, change, exchange.

And all that comes together with 転 - ten: Turning around.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:21 PM   #16
xcoder1997
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Tenkai is a pivoting movement so you're facing 180 degrees from starting hamni. For example, if you're facing north in left hamni, after tenkai you're facing south in right hamni.

Kaiten involves an irimi movement followed by tenkai. So if you're starting position is left hamni facing north, right foot goes forward (irimi movement) and then you do a tenkai to end up still in left hamni but facing south.

That's how I understand it.
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Old 09-29-2009, 02:20 PM   #17
tarik
 
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
and interesting:

shin - 身 in 転身 - tenshin means body, oneself. The other reading is mi, like in hanmi.
And here I thought that [inappropriate] tenshin was something that we were all trying to remove from our practice while learning how to relax the correct muscles.



Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

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Old 09-29-2009, 08:08 PM   #18
Walter Martindale
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Shoulda seen the look on a shihan's face (this is many years ago) when a Japanese speaker was relaying a query from an english speaker about the difference between tenkai and tenkan. the reply, I was told, was "can't you remember the kanji? - what a stupid question - and from YOU!!!"

Anyhoo - The way I've understood Tenkai, is you start in hanmi, pivot on the balls of your feet, which takes you slightly offline, and puts you facing to what started as the rear, in the opposite hanmi.

And we were taught that Tenshin was - for example - start in Right hanmi, pivot the left foot slightly so that both feet point ahead, withdraw the right leg to the rear so that when you assume left hanmi, you are now facing about 45 degrees to the right of where you were originally facing.

In both, your hands do whatever they need to (usually in front of your centre) depending on the attack.

This make sense?
W

(P.S. The 8.3 American Samoa earthquake caused considerable damage up there, but NZ only saw a small wave of about 40 cm, 4 hours later, which also struck at low tide, reducing the chances of problems here.. Hearts go out to American Samoa and Samoa where people have perished.)
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Old 09-30-2009, 03:05 PM   #19
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Tenshin, Tenkai??

Thanks Walter. I needed that reminder of that embarrassment!
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