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Old 09-28-2009, 02:50 PM   #76
Hogan
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
I accept your criticism of my example. You are correct, but my point was simply to ask how Obama is expected to be held accountable for the actions of a school teacher he has probably never met or even heard of. In that way, my example fits perfectly.

And, of course, you leave out the fact that she refers to Obama (who does exist) not simply because he is the leader of our country, but that he is the FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN leader of our country. This is a rather important fact, I think. After all, it was National Black History month.

--jimbo
As has been mentioned, it is not holding Obama accountable for the schools actions - it's holding the teacher & school. Obama has come into the picture because of his cult like love by his supporters that give rise to this type of behavior, much like any other well liked/worshiped leader. But for this particular incident, the teacher & not Obama is being held accountable as is indicated by the district's investigations & parent response to this school & teacher. The criticism I have seen from the parents on the news has ALL been about the inappropriateness with respect to introducing politics & songs of worship of a politician (who happens to be Obama). Not because it is Obama, but because it is for a politician. There is a difference.

(Now, the fact that the song deals with Obama, why that is just icing on the cake for us Obama haters... )
 
Old 09-28-2009, 03:25 PM   #77
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Then we are in agreement that in no way should this incident reflect upon Mr. Obama. We have agreed that the school itself should be the target of all criticism. Good.

Now as I see it, the question that remains in front of us is whether a song praising the accomplishments of a man who is the president of our country ought to be taught in class or not. Can you agree with that?

I agree that if such a song were made about Bill Clinton in the 90s or George Bush in the early part of this century, then we should perhaps investigate and reprimand the teacher for bringing in political issues to such young children.

But this song was made about the nation's first African-American president, during a week celebrating the achievements of African-Americans in this country. Granted, your case would be much stronger if the teacher had simply taught the song during April or some other time of the year. But within context, the song, I think, has a purpose greater than politics, just as the landing on the moon in the 60s was a thing all Americans, Democrats or Republicans, could be proud of.

You may disagree with his politics and you may dislike him as a person, but as an American, you should be proud that your country rose above petty racism to select him as your leader. For the first time, we can truly say that America is truly a place where ANY man can be what he wants to be, regardless of race or creed.

By the way, a quick Google search will list many songs used by teachers praising Presidents. Should they not be allowed to use these in the classroom? Most center around President's Day. Is it OK then to be used within the context of that holiday? Or is context completely irrelevant?

--jimbo
 
Old 09-28-2009, 04:46 PM   #78
Hogan
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
Then we are in agreement that in no way should this incident reflect upon Mr. Obama. We have agreed that the school itself should be the target of all criticism. Good. Now as I see it, the question that remains in front of us is whether a song praising the accomplishments of a man who is the president of our country ought to be taught in class or not. Can you agree with that?
Yes.

Quote:
...I agree that if such a song were made about Bill Clinton in the 90s or George Bush in the early part of this century, then we should perhaps investigate and reprimand the teacher for bringing in political issues to such young children.
Okay, agreed.

Quote:
...But this song was made about the nation's first African-American president, during a week celebrating the achievements of African-Americans in this country. Granted, your case would be much stronger if the teacher had simply taught the song during April or some other time of the year. But within context, the song, I think, has a purpose greater than politics, just as the landing on the moon in the 60s was a thing all Americans, Democrats or Republicans, could be proud of.
Well, no. It is clear that the principal/teacher were HUGE (or UGE depending if you are a supporter of Trump) Obama supporters & this sing-a-long to a religious song that praises his POLICIES makes it different. They may have used Black History Month as an excuse, but I think they would have done it anyway because of the evidence of their spreading of his policies throughout the school. Someone mentioned that Bush made it policy to teach creationism in school - well, what if we, at some southern school that happens to be a conservative district, used a religious song & substituted Bush's name for Jesus (like they did with Obama) to sing his praises & to sing about how evil abortion is (just like his policies said), during Christmas time? If you explain away song about Obama's POLICIES during Black History Month, then a song about Bush's POLICIES during Christmas would be OK?

When I grew up. we had pics of presidents in our social studies or history or government classes - but that is to teach civic responsibility & government (3 branches, etc). But this was above & beyond. If you want to say, well, it's to celebrate 1st black (or really, 1st half-black, half-white) Prez, but then why not create a song celebrating Clinton being the 1st Prez born in Arkansas? Or Bush being the 1st MBA Prez?

Quote:
You may ... dislike him as a person
I dislike him as a Pres & as a politician.

Quote:
...but as an American, you should be proud that your country rose above petty racism to select him as your leader
I actually am disappointed that someone would vote for him because of the color of his skin. Just as I would be disappointed if someone voted for McCain because he is white. You should vote for a Prez because of his policies, not skin color.

Quote:
...For the first time, we can truly say that America is truly a place where ANY man can be what he wants to be, regardless of race or creed.
Well, I have always thought that & didn't need Obama's election to prove it (are you Michelle Obama by any chance? )

Quote:
...By the way, a quick Google search will list many songs used by teachers praising Presidents. Should they not be allowed to use these in the classroom? Most center around President's Day. Is it OK then to be used within the context of that holiday? Or is context completely irrelevant?
Songs created in the political campaign should be taught - that is part of political campaign history, but to kids old enough, not children. A song created by a supported of a President to introduce children to politics with no knowledge of the parents that replaces 'Jesus' with the prez's name should not. And I have yet to see a parent at that school come out in support of it.
 
Old 09-28-2009, 05:10 PM   #79
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Yes.

Okay, agreed.

Well, no. It is clear that the principal/teacher were HUGE (or UGE depending if you are a supporter of Trump) Obama supporters & this sing-a-long to a religious song that praises his POLICIES makes it different. They may have used Black History Month as an excuse, but I think they would have done it anyway because of the evidence of their spreading of his policies throughout the school. Someone mentioned that Bush made it policy to teach creationism in school - well, what if we, at some southern school that happens to be a conservative district, used a religious song & substituted Bush's name for Jesus (like they did with Obama) to sing his praises & to sing about how evil abortion is (just like his policies said), during Christmas time? If you explain away song about Obama's POLICIES during Black History Month, then a song about Bush's POLICIES during Christmas would be OK?

When I grew up. we had pics of presidents in our social studies or history or government classes - but that is to teach civic responsibility & government (3 branches, etc). But this was above & beyond. If you want to say, well, it's to celebrate 1st black (or really, 1st half-black, half-white) Prez, but then why not create a song celebrating Clinton being the 1st Prez born in Arkansas? Or Bush being the 1st MBA Prez?

I dislike him as a Pres & as a politician.

I actually am disappointed that someone would vote for him because of the color of his skin. Just as I would be disappointed if someone voted for McCain because he is white. You should vote for a Prez because of his policies, not skin color.

Well, I have always thought that & didn't need Obama's election to prove it (are you Michelle Obama by any chance? )

Songs created in the political campaign should be taught - that is part of political campaign history, but to kids old enough, not children. A song created by a supported of a President to introduce children to politics with no knowledge of the parents that replaces 'Jesus' with the prez's name should not. And I have yet to see a parent at that school come out in support of it.
Now we are finally getting somewhere! Whew! See, that wasn't so hard!

First of all, I think you can understand why the first Arkansan elected president may not be celebrated much outside of the state of Arkansas. Perhaps you can name the first Arkansan pro baseball player? No, I doubt it, but you probably know who was the first African-American.

When other races which have been historically discriminated against, are given equal opportunity as the dominating race, it's a thing for all peoples to be proud of. A thing to celebrate.

I am sure there are those who voted for him because of the color of his skin, just as there were those who most assuredly did not vote for him for the same reason. It's part of life.

As for me, I don't see much in the song that could be called POLICY. Rhetoric, yes. Things that probably many or most presidential candidates have said at one time or another, yes. But POLICY? nah.

--jimbo
 
Old 09-28-2009, 06:23 PM   #80
Keith Larman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Do some of you seriously think the Obama presidency truly resembles this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

http://www.historyguide.org/europe/cult.html

Clearly we have very different ideas as to what a cult of personality is in the context of political systems.

 
Old 09-28-2009, 07:27 PM   #81
Hogan
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
...
As for me, I don't see much in the song that could be called POLICY. Rhetoric, yes. Things that probably many or most presidential candidates have said at one time or another, yes. But POLICY? nah...
Rhetoric or policy, not acceptable.

I have bolded the "policy" references:

Song One:
Mm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

He said that all must lend a hand
To make this country strong again
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

He said we must be fair today
Equal work means equal pay

Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

He said that we must take a stand
To make sure everyone gets a chance

Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

He said red, yellow, black or white
All are equal in his sight
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

Yes!
Mmm, mmm, mm
Barack Hussein Obama

Song 2:
Hello, Mr. President we honor you today!
For all your great accomplishments, we all doth say “hooray!”

Hooray, Mr. President! You’re number one!
The first black American to lead this great nation!

Hooray, Mr. President we honor your great plans
To make this country’s economy number one again!

Hooray Mr. President, we’re really proud of you!
And we stand for all Americans under the great Red, White, and Blue!

So continue—- Mr. President we know you’ll do the trick
So here’s a hearty hip-hooray —-

Hip, hip hooray!
Hip, hip hooray!
Hip, hip hooray!

And can we put this thread to bed? As an aikidoist, you shouldn't be talking so much...
 
Old 09-28-2009, 08:13 PM   #82
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

I have bolded the obvious "religious" reference:

Song One:
Mm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

He said that all must lend a hand
To make this country strong again
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

He said we must be fair today
Equal work means equal pay
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

He said that we must take a stand
To make sure everyone gets a chance
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

He said red, yellow, black or white
All are equal in his sight
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

Yes!
Mmm, mmm, mm
Barack Hussein Obama

From this website, http://www.kididdles.com/lyrics/j007.html

Jesus loves the little children
Written By: Unknown, Copyright Unknown
Play Song

Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Black and yellow, red and white
They're all precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world


Whether you're rich or whether you're poor
It matters not to Him
He remembers where you're going
Not where you've been

Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Black and yellow, red and white
They're all precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world

If your heart is troubled
Don't worry, don't you fret
He knows that you have heard His call
And he won't forget

Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Black and yellow, red and white
They're all precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world

All around the world tonight
His children rest assured
That He will watch and He will keep us
Safe and secure

Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Black and yellow, red and white
They're all precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world
 
Old 09-28-2009, 10:22 PM   #83
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Excellent! Now we have a point to begin!

Let me quickly recapitulate. We understand that there's no problem with Obama per se in this incident, but with the school and more explicitly the teacher.

Further, we can see that the context of Black History Month perhaps had some influence in the decision to do the song, though the teacher probably should have toned it down a bit.

We know that other historical presidents are glorified in songs and stories to teach American history to young children in an interesting manner. While Obama will necessarily be a president to be remembered, perhaps a teacher would be wiser to wait until after his term before glorifying him in song.

Upon close examination of the lyrics of the song, we can see that the teacher who wrote them views Obama's policies as:

1. That Americans must pull together to make this union strong again.

2. That person A and person B ought to receive equal wages for performing equal work, regardless of race, creed, or gender.

3. That Americans should look out for one another and help each other.

(I'm omitting the parts you've bolded about "honoring Obama's plan" and that he should "continue" because I don't really think those are policy type decisions, do you? Certainly, a candidate couldn't really build a platform around them.)

4. And David has added the reference to religion which is alluded to.

OK. That's where we're at in plain language. You guys really want to take a swing at some of the "policies"? By taking such a strong stance are you both arguing for:

1. American must not remain united;
2. Businesses should be able to discriminate in wages;
3. Americans shouldn't help each other out?

Now the alleged religious part. Is it distasteful to you because you would like Obama to not look upon all races equally? You would prefer, perhaps, that he favors the African-Americans? Or is it distasteful to you because it perhaps unintentionally creates a comparison between Obama and Jesus? If that's your stance, then I'd say you have a legitimate argument.

--jimbo
 
Old 09-28-2009, 10:31 PM   #84
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
. You guys really want to take a swing at some of the "policies"?
As it has been stated before this thread is not about policies.
It is about a cult of personality. Don't try to redefine what the discussion is about.


David
 
Old 09-28-2009, 10:45 PM   #85
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
Now the alleged religious part. Is it distasteful to you because you would like Obama to not look upon all races equally? You would prefer, perhaps, that he favors the African-Americans? Or is it distasteful to you because it perhaps unintentionally creates a comparison between Obama and Jesus? If that's your stance, then I'd say you have a legitimate argument.
It is distasteful because it deliberately tries to convince grade school kids that Obama is the same as Jesus by linking the song about Obama to a song about Jesus. I would feel the same way if there was an attempt to link Obama as the same as Buddha, Mohammed, Lao tzu, the Dalai Lama, Sister Theresa or the Pope.

David

Last edited by dps : 09-28-2009 at 10:47 PM.
 
Old 09-28-2009, 11:12 PM   #86
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
As it has been stated before this thread is not about policies.
It is about a cult of personality. Don't try to redefine what the discussion is about.

David
We've already determined that to assume a "cult of personality" exists based upon a single incident which Obama himself had no knowledge of stinks of about three different logical fallacies. The biggest, of course, is the fallacy "Slippery Slope" in which an argument is based upon few instances of X and it is argued that these instances will lead to Z while skipping at least one or more steps.

If you wish to talk about Obama's perceived cult of personality, I would recommend that you first define exactly what you mean by that term. Then find several examples of how Obama is cultivating this cult of personality that you accuse him of.

Good luck with that.

--jimbo
 
Old 09-28-2009, 11:17 PM   #87
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
It is distasteful because it deliberately tries to convince grade school kids that Obama is the same as Jesus by linking the song about Obama to a song about Jesus. I would feel the same way if there was an attempt to link Obama as the same as Buddha, Mohammed, Lao tzu, the Dalai Lama, Sister Theresa or the Pope.

David
Awesome! Now you have a case!

Now if the teacher had put the words to a different song, say, "The Star Spangled Banner" or "America, The Beautiful" perhaps we wouldn't be having this discussion right now! Ill-chosen song, that was. I agree!

But notice that the message of the song isn't nearly as offensive as the allusion to Jesus that is implied by using the religious song as a model for the Obama song.

--jimbo
 
Old 09-28-2009, 11:45 PM   #88
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
Awesome! Now you have a case!

Now if the teacher had put the words to a different song, say, "The Star Spangled Banner" or "America, The Beautiful" perhaps we wouldn't be having this discussion right now! Ill-chosen song, that was. I agree!
No I did not say it was an ill-chosen song I said it was deliberate, so therefore we do not agree. Do not redefine what I said by posting something I did not say.

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
But notice that the message of the song isn't nearly as offensive as the allusion to Jesus that is implied by using the religious song as a model for the Obama song.
As far as this thread goes the message of the song is not the issue. It is about Obama's cult of personality. The linkage of Obama to Jesus to grade school kids is an attempt at this.

David
 
Old 09-29-2009, 08:41 AM   #89
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
No I did not say it was an ill-chosen song I said it was deliberate, so therefore we do not agree. Do not redefine what I said by posting something I did not say.
I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but I am trying to refrain from baseless accusations. What evidence could you possibly have that would indicate that the teacher's main goal for the lesson in question was to link Obama to Jesus in the minds of his/her kids by deliberately choosing a religious song?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
As far as this thread goes the message of the song is not the issue. It is about Obama's cult of personality. The linkage of Obama to Jesus to grade school kids is an attempt at this.
I have asked you before to define the term: cult of personality. What is it? How is it created? Who needs to be involved in the creation? Please consider doing so. And I think it would be a good exercise for you to do so in your own words, rather than to cut and paste from Wikipedia because, in the end, it's what you believe that matters here, not Wikipedia.

While you are doing this, I would like to ask you think deeply about how one incident at one school can be considered a sign of anything, much less a sign that we are heading toward a fascist state. Earlier in the thread you stated that there are more schools doing this, and I asked you to clarify, but you haven't yet.

--jimbo
 
Old 09-29-2009, 10:57 PM   #90
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
What evidence could you possibly have that would indicate that the teacher's main goal for the lesson in question was to link Obama to Jesus in the minds of his/her kids by deliberately choosing a religious song?,
Based on the similarities of the two songs.
What evidence do you have that is wasn't her main goal?

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
I have asked you before to define the term: cult of personality. What is it? How is it created? Who needs to be involved in the creation? Please consider doing so. And I think it would be a good exercise for you to do so in your own words, rather than to cut and paste from Wikipedia because, in the end, it's what you believe that matters here, not Wikipedia.
In a rational discussion the topic needs to be clearly defined for all sides to work from. The definition from Wikipedia is one that I decided to use.

"A cult of personality arises when a country's leader uses mass media to create an idealized and heroic public image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise."

In Obama's case it is his friends, supporters, political allies, the people who have something to gain politically and monetarily.

What reference material would like to use for a definition of "cult of personality "?

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
I'm not trying to put words into your mouth,
Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
While you are doing this, I would like to ask you think deeply about how one incident at one school can be considered a sign of anything, much less a sign that we are heading toward a fascist state.
There you go again slipping in words that aren't mine.

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
Earlier in the thread you stated that there are more schools doing this, and I asked you to clarify, but you haven't yet.
More examples;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfhHH...ayer_embeddedu

http://realdebatewisconsin.blogspot....book-with.html

A mom complaining about a textbook from her eight grade son's school.

"My 8th grade son is in an advanced English class at a public middle school here in Racine, Wisconsin. I just found out that my son's new (copyright 2008) Wisconsin - McDougal Littell Literature book has 15 pages covering Barack Obama.

I was shocked - No John McCain, no Hillary Clinton, no George Bush - Just Barack Obama."

In part of a reply by a spokeswoman for the Racine, Wis., Unified School District.

The book
"... "probably is one of the most popular textbooks" in the country..."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77957

David
 
Old 09-30-2009, 08:16 AM   #91
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Based on the similarities of the two songs.
What evidence do you have that is wasn't her main goal?
I don't have this evidence. And neither do you, which is exactly my point. How can you go around and make an accusation without proof? Aren't we still innocent in this country until we proven guilty? Intention is key in Aikido, just as it is here. Can you honestly say that you understood her intention? [Note that we have slipped into using the pronoun she and its references based upon the general idea that a lot of elementary school teachers are female. The actual identity and gender of the teacher in question is unknown by the public, I believe.]

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
In a rational discussion the topic needs to be clearly defined for all sides to work from. The definition from Wikipedia is one that I decided to use.

"A cult of personality arises when a country's leader uses mass media to create an idealized and heroic public image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise."

In Obama's case it is his friends, supporters, political allies, the people who have something to gain politically and monetarily.

What reference material would like to use for a definition of "cult of personality "?
This works for me. Essential to the definition, I believe, is that the country's leader uses mass media to create this image. Staying specific to this case only, in what way was Obama involved in the incident? Did he somehow force or act to have the school teacher make the children sing songs about him? Perhaps he wrote the lyrics himself?

I believe that it's essential if you want to argue this case, that you show direct involvement on Obama's part. Otherwise, what we have are cases of individuals acting as individuals, nothing else.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post

More examples;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfhHH...ayer_embeddedu

http://realdebatewisconsin.blogspot....book-with.html

A mom complaining about a textbook from her eight grade son's school.

"My 8th grade son is in an advanced English class at a public middle school here in Racine, Wisconsin. I just found out that my son's new (copyright 2008) Wisconsin - McDougal Littell Literature book has 15 pages covering Barack Obama.

I was shocked - No John McCain, no Hillary Clinton, no George Bush - Just Barack Obama."

In part of a reply by a spokeswoman for the Racine, Wis., Unified School District.

The book
"... "probably is one of the most popular textbooks" in the country..."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77957

David
So if a guy goes into an Aikido school and watches the practice, and he comes to the decision that at that (based upon his observation of that school) Aikido isn't an effective martial art. So he travels to another school, watches practice and concludes with the same. So he hits a third dojo, and ends up with the same result, so he says: Aikido isn't an effective art at all.

Perhaps you would disagree with his conclusion. Why?

Well, he used inductive reasoning to move from specific cases to a general conclusion. This, in itself, is not a bad thing, but he may have used too few samples to reach his conclusion. Is there a possibility that there is still a dojo out there where Aikido is indeed martial? Sure. Of the thousands, he sampled three.

Now perhaps you can see what's faulty with your argument, except that there are more than a few thousand kindergartens in the US. A sample size of two just doesn't add up to anything except individual acting as individuals do. No conspiracy here.

Your third example was at a high school and didn't give a lot of specific information about what the textbook says and we certainly don't know how the teacher used that in his/her lesson. Perhaps it was to trigger a debate about this very topic. Who knows? Controversial material can be a useful tool in education to get students to think! And we certainly need more thinking Americans!

--jimbo
 
Old 09-30-2009, 08:37 AM   #92
Marc Abrams
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Jimbo:

I truly applaud your efforts ! There is a famous quote: "The heart has reasons of which the mind knows not of." It should be modified to "Political rhetoric has reasons to which a reasoned mind knows not of."

You are trying to engage in a reasonable and logical discussion with people who are simply locked within their political and personal mindsets. This is akin to farting into a gale wind and waiting for the aroma. That is why I simply stopped trying to respond to the nonsense.

Best of Luck!

Marc Abrams
 
Old 09-30-2009, 10:12 AM   #93
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Jimbo:

I truly applaud your efforts ! There is a famous quote: "The heart has reasons of which the mind knows not of." It should be modified to "Political rhetoric has reasons to which a reasoned mind knows not of."

You are trying to engage in a reasonable and logical discussion with people who are simply locked within their political and personal mindsets. This is akin to farting into a gale wind and waiting for the aroma. That is why I simply stopped trying to respond to the nonsense.

Best of Luck!

Marc Abrams
Hi Marc,

Thanks!

Without reason, perhaps the loudest voice (or most frequent poster) wins the argument. By introducing logic and reasoning into this argument, I hope to expose the claim as unjustifiable, if not to David himself, then to others who peruse the board. At least, they can decide for themselves if the argument is worthy.

For me, then, this is just an exercise--a way to practice the logic and reasoning skills I've learned. But it's funny how many principles of Aikido have come into play here: calmness, dispassion, balance, staying centered, etc.

I, for one, have truly enjoyed this exchange! Unfortunately, I have to admit that it has been an entirely selfish act: I've only continued the dialogue because I thought that I had something to learn. I hope I will stop before I get to the point where I'm not learning anything, just preaching something.

Thanks again!

--jimbo
 
Old 09-30-2009, 10:48 AM   #94
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
Did a quick check of my kid's school.

Pictures of Obama in my kid's classroom? - No
Singing songs in praise of the great leader? - No

These things probably happen in a couple places. I doubt the practice is pervasive, certainly not to the Mao/Stalin level. The fear and angst seems excessive.

Mark
That's cause you're not a wing-nut, Mark.

You need to spend a lot of time watching Glen Beck and O'Reilly and Limbaugh. When you're really nutty, to the point of drooling, you'll understand the fear and angst.



David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-30-2009, 10:51 AM   #95
David Orange
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Re: President Obama's policy and ideology

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John Hogan wrote: View Post
I think this is in reference to the supposed 'death panels' in health care reform, & the idea it is more cost effective to let the elderly die rather than waste money to treat them for a short time.
Right...I should have added Palin to that list.

Anyway, those are both Republican "ideas".

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-30-2009, 10:57 AM   #96
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

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John Hogan wrote: View Post
Would the teacher of acted this way if Obama would have not existed.....
....yeesh.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
...but the person leaving the scene of an accident would STILL behave that way, whether Palin existed or not.
That's rather questionable. The whole gas-sucking SUV phenomenon...the Palin bumper sticker...hitting a Prius...and leaving the scene....

Sounds like Palin fleeing her corruption charges as gov of Alaska.

It's a typical right-wing act.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-30-2009, 11:06 AM   #97
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Clearly we have very different ideas as to what a cult of personality is in the context of political systems.
Of course. You say "consultation on care," they say "DEATH PANELS. You say "Liberty and justice for all," they say "SOCIALISM."

You say, "Congratulations, Mr. President," and they say, "WORSHIPPING A MAN!!!!"

But you know, you can still see "W...the President" stickers on cars, even now? And "W...still the President." And "W...still the worst President."

It's just crazy.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-30-2009, 11:23 AM   #98
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

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Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
But notice that the message of the song isn't nearly as offensive as the allusion to Jesus that is implied by using the religious song as a model for the Obama song.
I had a religious re-awakening in 1978, just when I graduated from college and over the next couple of years I read the complete Bible a couple of times, tithed to my church, attended regularly, visited other churches and contributed, and listened to "Christian" radio exclusively.

And then I began to notice something: many of the "Christian" messages were being weighed heavily to the political sphere. In particular, there was a guy named Jerry Falwell who was adding more and more specifically Republican content to his messages and as 1980 slouched toward History, the vast majority of that station's content became an almost unmasked cheer for Ronald Reagan. The "Christians" of the US voted out a Baptist minister in favor of a Hollywood actor who talked about Christianity but was really a big believer in astrology. And he was divorced and remarried--a thing that, in that day, was still highly frowned on by "good Americans". So the Christians chose that over an actual preacher and in fact, Republicans have been hijacking Christianity ever since to elect Presidents that are closer to bin Laden and Ahmadinejad than they are to Jesus, but they have consistently linked their candidates with Jesus and have tried unflaggingly to paint any democrat as a registered Satan-worshipper.

I find the substitution of Obama's name for Jesus' in the song to be in very bad judgment and taste and I would not do it, nor would I let it pass if someone I knew did it. Just as I have always called Republicans on hijacking religion to convince poor people to let the super-wealthy take their money, send their children to war and terminate their health coverage as soon as they desperately need it. What it really takes is low education to support that kind of thing, but it worked really well until Bush finally drove the economy lower than the Titanic.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-30-2009, 11:24 AM   #99
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

If someone (think: james bond super-villan) wanted to divide America; I do not think they could have defined a better program than what we now see unfolding..
I find it sad.
 
Old 09-30-2009, 11:32 AM   #100
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
Without reason, perhaps the loudest voice (or most frequent poster) wins the argument.
There's no winning, unfortunately, and even getting the last word in is not worth much.

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
By introducing logic and reasoning into this argument, I hope to expose the claim as unjustifiable, if not to David himself, then to others who peruse the board. At least, they can decide for themselves if the argument is worthy.
To the wing-nuts, you will never prove anything and they will take the wispiest, most demented ravings as absolute proof of ideas that would embarrass the really insane. Anyone with any sense just looks for the little "two cents" icon and knows it's a screwball argument.

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
For me, then, this is just an exercise--a way to practice the logic and reasoning skills I've learned. But it's funny how many principles of Aikido have come into play here: calmness, dispassion, balance, staying centered, etc.
You're doing great, Jimbo.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 

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