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Old 09-24-2009, 01:21 PM   #26
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
And those push tests *are* an indicator of "IT".
.
Anybody got any more indicators of IT you'd mind sharing?

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 09-24-2009 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 09-24-2009, 01:28 PM   #27
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Is holding ground, being immovable, doing nothing the ultimate goal of Aiki?

O Sensei was creating symphonies, with open eyes and ears how can one not be interested in them? What value is Aiki without beauty?
Why are you asking about "ulitmate goals," etc. in the context of this thread about IT, aka "internal training?" Do you disagree with what someone is saying that IT constitutes? Do you think it unimportant or inappropriate for aikido? I don't understand what you are trying to contribute to the conversation.
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Old 09-24-2009, 01:52 PM   #28
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What is "IT"?

Plonk....

Sorry, I now return you to your regularly scheduled channel...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 09-24-2009, 03:57 PM   #29
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Fred Little wrote: View Post
Probably not even close to being an ultimate goal; almost certainly rather closer to a beginner's finger exercises at the outset of the keyboard harmony training that generally precedes symphonic composition.

There is, after all is said and done, a difference between "going beyond" and "skipping over."

YMMV,

FL
That was beautiful, Fred.

Rei. Domo. Osu. Cowabunga, Dude.

Mike
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Old 09-29-2009, 11:29 AM   #30
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Re: What is "IT"?

I think each individual has to decide for their-self what IT really is and perhaps IT changes as the individual grows in their training and life experiences.

Right now for me IT is connection and being able to feel and respond to that both as Uke and as Nage.
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:07 PM   #31
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
I think each individual has to decide for their-self what IT really is and perhaps IT changes as the individual grows in their training and life experiences.

Right now for me IT is connection and being able to feel and respond to that both as Uke and as Nage.
Have you read Ellis Amdur's new book?

There are specifics for "IT", aka Internal Training. If you're interested in learning more, read Ellis' book and/or peruse some threads in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum. There are quite a bit of posts out there about "IT", aiki, Internal Skills (IS), etc. I hope you keep an open mind and read.
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Old 09-29-2009, 08:42 PM   #32
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Re: What is "IT"?

Always looking for something new to read. I'll put it on my list. And I always try my best to have an open mind. I'm sure that as I progress in my aikido this concept will become more clear to me.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:18 PM   #33
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Always looking for something new to read. I'll put it on my list. And I always try my best to have an open mind. I'm sure that as I progress in my aikido this concept will become more clear to me.
I think the chances of you finding internal power to any appreciable level in aikido are slim to none. Personally, I have never met anyone in Aikido with internal power /aiki. Nor have I seen a video of any teacher- Japanese or otherwise -who exhibited much. I would love to hear of someone, somewhere who does-particularly if they have a video out I haven't already seen.
I would consider looking for those teachers in Aikido who's current training is specifically focusing on IT. In time they will be the best (if not the only) bet on getting IT in aikido.
Good luck in your search.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-29-2009 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 09-30-2009, 06:43 AM   #34
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
OK, that's hilarious! I read a big chunk of that discussion, and if I recall even responded to something, and I actually never made the connection that IT was an acronym for internal training, even though everyone kept talking about IT and internal training constantly in the same sentence.

I honestly thought IT was being used to denote 'it', i.e., to say there's this thing that's important but hard to define or at least hard to get people to agree on a name for, so we're just going to keep calling it 'it', in capitals so we know it's a BIG 'it'.

The whole thing reads so differently now .
LOL I'm even slower than you... I just figgured it out myself.
Now maybe I can get to understanding how I might apply IT in my life.
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Old 09-30-2009, 08:17 AM   #35
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Re: What is "IT"?

All points of IHTBF properly acknowledged and set aside -- for purposes of these forums Jun has invited us to use linked video for illustration -- which has been noted in this discussion. But as a matter of plain fairness, when one asserts that this or that thing is not displayed in a given video of a unnamed person one ought to show such a video and identify such a person so that 1) they or those with knowledge of their practice have an opportunity to defend their practice (or the point demonstrated in that video), and 2) so that the error, if it may be shown thereby, can actually be avoided by others.

And more importantly, if the assertion is that IT (or lack of IT) may be seen in video, one ought to actually show that in video illustrating the points affirmatively by way of comparison with the videos of those criticized, to illustrate the points of contrast or comparison.

Blanket criticisms of nameless shihans on unidentified video without video of a correct comparison or an exemplary contrast are worse than pointless to those trying to understand what we might mean. Critical comparison or contrast of specific examples is education -- it teaches by "dissemination of information." Merely enticing enthusiasm or inciting derision without informing -- that is defined as "propaganda." Right or wrong as to its intended point -- it is not informative. A well-informed showing of error teaches vastly more than an uninformed (or uninforming) statement, however correct.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-30-2009, 08:58 AM   #36
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
All points of IHTBF properly acknowledged and set aside -- for purposes of these forums Jun has invited us to use linked video for illustration -- which has been noted in this discussion. But as a matter of plain fairness, when one asserts that this or that thing is not displayed in a given video of a unnamed person one ought to show such a video and identify such a person so that 1) they or those with knowledge of their practice have an opportunity to defend their practice (or the point demonstrated in that video), and 2) so that the error, if it may be shown thereby, can actually be avoided by others.

And more importantly, if the assertion is that IT (or lack of IT) may be seen in video, one ought to actually show that in video illustrating the points affirmatively by way of comparison with the videos of those criticized, to illustrate the points of contrast or comparison.

Blanket criticisms of nameless shihans on unidentified video without video of a correct comparison or an exemplary contrast are worse than pointless to those trying to understand what we might mean. Critical comparison or contrast of specific examples is education -- it teaches by "dissemination of information." Merely enticing enthusiasm or inciting derision without informing -- that is defined as "propaganda." Right or wrong as to its intended point -- it is not informative. A well-informed showing of error teaches vastly more than an uninformed (or uninforming) statement, however correct.
I think that is an excellent idea for you to show. I think a lot of people would love to see you do a video where you correctly and critically compare and contrast specific examples.

Since you have gone on record here at Aikiweb as defining "IT" quite often, I think it would be extremely helpful of you if you would show a video comparing and contrasting your usages of "IT". What an exemplary example you could set for all those out there.

Going further, I think that you should also include your teachers as examples because if you have "IT", then they must also, too. So, maybe you could get video of them to help all of us compare and contrast so that others can avoid errors.

What a brilliant post you provided us. When can we expect your videos?
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:05 AM   #37
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I think that is an excellent idea for you to show. I think a lot of people would love to see you do a video where you correctly and critically compare and contrast specific examples.
Well-- the comment wasn't about me, was it? I said the blanket statement assuming the evidence was unfair to many other people. I am not criticizing the performance of unnamed others on unspecified video -- so the moral burden in this respect does not fall on me.

Regardless of what you might think of me were I to respond to your challenge, my complaint would stand unaffected. It is simply more helpful and more fair to those criticized (categorically, mind you) to make those comparisons overtly and specifically with examples rather than by generality and assumptions.

Hmmm. A video yaburi forum? But then, I don't like watching most sporting contests, either, so it has about the same appeal.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Since you have gone on record here at Aikiweb as defining "IT" quite often, I think it would be extremely helpful of you if you would show a video comparing and contrasting your usages of "IT". What an exemplary example you could set for all those out there.
Great idea. First you point out a definition you challenge and tell us why it is wrong, and then maybe I will respond with some video illustrating the point ... if specifics are set against specifics, maybe we all learn a little.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-30-2009 at 11:14 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:22 AM   #38
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I honestly thought IT was being used to denote 'it', i.e., to say there's this thing that's important but hard to define or at least hard to get people to agree on a name for, so we're just going to keep calling it 'it', in capitals so we know it's a BIG 'it'.

The whole thing reads so differently now .
IT got defined from 'it' to 'IT' in this thread. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...=16496&page=29.

The meaning started out more like " this thing that's important but hard to define or at least hard to get people to agree on a name for,"
and evolved into " internal training".

David
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:43 AM   #39
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Well-- the comment wasn't about me, was it?
We are, after all, contributors to a public thread. Whether we want to or not, by posting, we make the commentary about us ... in some manner.

Or, as some teachers/instructors/trainers like to say ... "Oh, you have a suggestion. Congratulations, you've just volunteered."

Or, by critical posts throughout the length and breadth of the topic of "IT", you have made the comments about you. Just as I have done the same.

Any old way you slice it, tag, you're it.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I said the blanket statement assuming the evidence was unfair to many other people. I am not criticizing the performance of unnamed others on unspecified video -- so the moral burden in this respect does not fall on me.
Let me get this straight ... you criticize by using physics/math/etc on threads regarding "IT", but because you fail to criticize the performance of others on video, you're exempt from video, but yet can suggest that others use video?

And you're exempt from the same criteria that you are suggesting others use? For example, using your teacher's videos, you could do exactly that which you suggested. Contrasting it to other videos, you could "identify such a person" and give comparison or contrast. With your background and abilities, you could lead the way instead of pointing a finger at ... video ... and saying someone else should show.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Regardless of what you might think of me were I to respond to your challenge, my complaint would stand unaffected. It is simply more helpful and more fair to those criticized (categorically, mind you) to make those comparisons overtly and specifically with examples rather than by generality and assumptions.

Hmmm. A video yaburi forum? But then, I don't like watching most sporting contests, either, so it has about the same appeal.

Great idea. First you point out a definition you challenge and tell us why it is wrong, and then maybe I will respond with some video illustrating the point ... if specifics are set against specifics, maybe we all learn a little.
Even trying to turn things around (I certainly didn't complain about video), there is no ground here upon which to stand. But, for the sake of ... well, just because ... let me address this issue.

Posting.
Me: Certainly quite a bit of posts about "IT".
You: Certainly quite a bit of posts about "IT".

Experience with main "IT" participants.
Me: Rob John, Mike Sigman, Dan Harden
You: ???

Video.
Me: Youtube videos. http://www.youtube.com/user/wvmark
You: ???

With that last part, let me return to your topic of videos and illustrating points. I've done so. 8 videos, all addressing some topic of "IT".

And here in this thread of which you have decided to participate, I have asked that you, with your abilities (and those of your teachers from which you have learned), to step up and help others by doing that which you, yourself, suggested. Unless of course that is something beyond what you ... want to ... do.
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:55 AM   #40
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Re: What is "IT"?

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. The question was asked and a statement offered that the person could look forward to finding it in Aikido.
I offered an opinion as to the chances of that happening to any significant degree.
I would be thrilled to feel or see expert level aiki or expert level internal power from anyone in the aikido community. I have never personally felt it from anyone in Aikido up to 8th dans, and I have never seen even what I would consider good mid-level structure or aiki on any video anywhere.
I am confused as to why you would want more video.

Everyone has been encouraged to offer input-yet not everyone's opinions are equally qualified are they? There are levels of IT. Some can deliver a little bit and some can deliver in spades. It serves no purpose to lie or inflate skills of aikido teachers that are simply not there. They can be hoped for. We can wax nostalgically for teachers we wish had IT to a higher degree but I've never seen it. I would be happy to touch hands, or better yet rock and roll with someone you think has IT to a substantial degree.
As for replicating and teaching it to others? For faults-all their own making-I am uninterested in Japanese teachers as a source. They have, for all intents and purposes, failed to deliver! They don't get aiki. And of the few who might- they have proven themselves to be unable to teach it in a methodical sense to the next generation. At what point do we wise up and stop caring what they say or do?

I think the future of aikido is being written right now. The previous generation of Japanes teacher's failure to teach aiki is becoming obvious to an increasingly educated student base under them. I have been hearing of Japanese Shihan being unable to respond to direct questions about aiki and the means to train the body by their own students, who are increasingly going outside of aikido find it. The Shihan are bereft of advice on what to do and why and where it leads. The American teachers under them are just not talking about it publicly.

Thankfully more and more American teachers are becoming aware of that and are just looking at the Japanese teachers influence (as a source) nostalgically; more akin to the comment from Abe Shosaburo in Dave Lowry's book: "Autumn lightning"
“In the Changing of the times they were like Autumn Lighting, a thing out of season, an empty promise of rain that would fall unheeded on fields already bare.”

We can do better amongst ourselves…heck we already are.
I don't see what the worry is though. I see it in a very postive light. What is left to argue when Aikido's senior teachers and Shihan are now stepping outside the art to learn aiki...I mean ...hello?
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-30-2009 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 09-30-2009, 01:09 PM   #41
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Let me get this straight ... you criticize by using physics/math/etc on threads regarding "IT", but because you fail to criticize the performance of others on video, you're exempt from video, but yet can suggest that others use video?
I understand my sample rate is low in these conversations...and lower as of late...but my sense is that criticizing others' training is not what Erick tends to do. My impression is that he mostly applies his set of language to what he perceives as going on and then folks tell him how he doesn't know what he's talking about...FWIW...I'd like to reiterate I understand this is merely my perception, but that is how it appears to me.

Quote:
And you're exempt from the same criteria that you are suggesting others use?
Again, I've not read him as making many, if any, claims on the quality of others' training. I see him as applying certain physical principles to his understanding of I.S. and then getting criticized.
Maybe another way to put it is that it seems some folks are more interested in "debunking" Erick's notion that he understands something about I.S. than in the issue of I.S. itself. Again, I understand I haven't been tracking these conversations very well, so I appologize if I'm mischaracterizing the situation.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-30-2009, 01:25 PM   #42
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I understand my sample rate is low in these conversations...and lower as of late...but my sense is that criticizing others' training is not what Erick tends to do. My impression is that he mostly applies his set of language to what he perceives as going on and then folks tell him how he doesn't know what he's talking about...FWIW...I'd like to reiterate I understand this is merely my perception, but that is how it appears to me.

Again, I've not read him as making many, if any, claims on the quality of others' training. I see him as applying certain physical principles to his understanding of I.S. and then getting criticized.
Maybe another way to put it is that it seems some folks are more interested in "debunking" Erick's notion that he understands something about I.S. than in the issue of I.S. itself. Again, I understand I haven't been tracking these conversations very well, so I appologize if I'm mischaracterizing the situation.
You are absolutely correct.

David
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Old 09-30-2009, 01:41 PM   #43
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I see (Erick Mead) as applying certain physical principles to his understanding of I.S. and then getting criticized.
Well, that's because the topic is not just wide open. The discussion concerns a very specific set of skills and the internal work that develops and allows those skills to work. Though Erick has commented extensively on many of these threads, he's said very little that compels me to think that he understands the topic at all. It's a lot like another poster recently trying to completely redefine "internal strength" to "true internal strength". Which is a lot like that guy always posting videos about "real aikido" which are just very roughly done normal aikido.

The difference between aikido and aikijujutsu is not just being more brutal and in my opinion the only difference between aikido and "real aikido" is that real aikido does contain "internal strength". And I haven't seen any evidence of that in the "real aikido" videos.

So it's the same with Erick's comments as with Buck's. They don't relate at all to the experience of the people who have trained with the top exponents of Internal Strength training and moreover give the feeling that the elaborate wording of his posts are an attempt to obscure their relative lack of meaning.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Maybe another way to put it is that it seems some folks are more interested in "debunking" Erick's notion that he understands something about I.S. than in the issue of I.S. itself.
Well, how many times can one say "That's not what we're talking about"? It's true the IS and IT threads need a lot more explication of how IS works and how IT is trained, but maybe we could get more of that if we had less unrelated commentary which draws flies who want to cling to that stuff and claim that they, too, have "IT".

I'm sure Erick is well intentioned, but after all these years of discussion, I'm not aware that he has ever made any contact with anyone widely recognized to have internal strength skills. Well, I only met Akuzawa and Dan Harden this year, myself, but I did it because I had read closely what they were saying and I recognized that I was "not" doing what they were talking about.

If Erick really believes he is doing the same things, I think he should get out there and match up with Dan or Ark and put all the speculation behind him.

Best to you.

David

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Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 09-30-2009, 02:15 PM   #44
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Re: What is "IT"?

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With that last part, let me return to your topic of videos and illustrating points. I've done so. 8 videos, all addressing some topic of "IT".
And you may notice, I have not commented upon them, critically or otherwise. I respect the fact that you are willing to show what you are working on going along -- and I leave it at that. For me the work has been to better categorize and try to physically define something that has greatly lacked that kind of definition, and I have been willing to show what I am working on going along -- and I leave it at that ...

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
... I have asked that you, with your abilities (and those of your teachers from which you have learned), to step up and help others by doing that which you, yourself, suggested. Unless of course that is something beyond what you ... want to ... do.
If somebody suddenly throws a short hook in my general vicinity, something interesting will almost certainly happen. I doubt that will be on video -- so anything else is more or less contrived for purposes of instruction -- so --- to continue our discussion on the useful purposes of video -- What would you want to see that I have defined or that you would question in my definitions ? As for my teachers, you would have to ask them. What I learned, I learned from training with them, from what they did, less than from what they intended to show. I am sure I missed a great deal of what they intended. Very often what I learned may not have been what they were teaching at the time. They certainly did not use my definitions in teaching me, which is not a point of even remote criticism, but a simple and quite happy fact. Heck, I don't even use them on the mat except in passing to better explain a point of structural or dynamic correction and why the condition I pointed to was incorrect, and why the correction works better. They are a different way of expressing just what the traditional terms do, but also serve as a good check against the more "airy" interpretations or attempted applications of those traditional terms, and the often ambiguous references that seem to creep in. But I find that they they very usefully inform my observations and my own depth of training to no end.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-30-2009, 02:49 PM   #45
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Well, that's because the topic is not just wide open. The discussion concerns a very specific set of skills and the internal work that develops and allows those skills to work. Though Erick has commented extensively on many of these threads, he's said very little that compels me to think that he understands the topic at all.
That's because I am not writing to compel you. If I respond it is because I recognize something put forth in their terms and wish to work it through in mine, and it might tangentially be of value to someone looking at the physical issues involved, since I have kinda thought this through at this point. If it does not work for you -- then go with God ...

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David Orange wrote: View Post
So it's the same with Erick's comments as with Buck's. They don't relate at all to the experience of the people who have trained with the top exponents of Internal Strength training and moreover give the feeling that the elaborate wording of his posts are an attempt to obscure their relative lack of meaning.
Name anyone else who has even attempted to put this stuff in a rigorous bio-mechanical framework. Certainly not those guys -- which is again NOT a criticism, simply a point of fact. Nor even some of the technically minded people they have worked with, who have been mentioned. The reason is that the categories of information involved on either side (East and West) do not map on-for-one between data sets. The traditional terminology and concepts in the history of these arts and the more common mechanical conventions and concepts that we would use (usually force-vector or f=ma) cannot be trivially substituted. To do so is meaningless and misleading. But they are BOTH coherent and they BOTH relate -- once you break them down into parts and definitions that WILL relate correctly . There are many more than one convention available to use in defining a physical problem or dynamic state. This is what I have done, and it does not take more than a knowledge of a certain branch of 18th c. mechanics and a little late 20th c. knowledge of neuro-muscular functions to grasp the essential working points on the Western side. I am frankly constantly amazed at the resistance to trying to look at it in this way. Amazed, I say. Who knows, they might even prove me wrong....

They are working on what they are working on, by all accounts successfully and satisfactorily to those who work on it with them. I don't criticize them. I do criticize the manner of criticism of others in discussion, but that is a different issue relating more the usefulness of criticism in a discussion -- which is very valuable if done right, and pointless if done wrong.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I'm sure Erick is well intentioned, but after all these years of discussion, I'm not aware that he has ever made any contact with anyone widely recognized to have internal strength skills.... I had read closely what they were saying and I recognized that I was "not" doing what they were talking about.
I have also read them closely. I will leave you to judge how closely I can read.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-30-2009, 03:00 PM   #46
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The question was asked and a statement offered that the person could look forward to finding it in Aikido.
I offered an opinion as to the chances of that happening to any significant degree.... I have never personally felt it from anyone in Aikido up to 8th dans, and I have never seen even what I would consider good mid-level structure or aiki on any video anywhere.
I am confused as to why you would want more video.
... Video was the point raised. Simple specifics were urged ... for the same two reasons I stated -- and which, as yet, remain points in question.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-30-2009, 03:02 PM   #47
Russ Q
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Re: What is "IT"?

Hey all,

I'm not saying I know anything about IT (I just got the acronym myself - Har!) but as for video.....here it goes. I think this demonstrates it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvWiYcxTm2A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsuhU8uouNs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlvGl...eature=related

Whaddya think? Perhaps someone with experience in IT can tell us why or why not these folks show it.....

Cheers,

Russ
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Old 09-30-2009, 03:05 PM   #48
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Again, I've not read him as making many, if any, claims on the quality of others' training. I see him as applying certain physical principles to his understanding of I.S. and then getting criticized.
For the record -- criticizing physical principles is all useful criticism...

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Maybe another way to put it is that it seems some folks are more interested in "debunking" Erick's notion that he understands something about I.S. than in the issue of I.S. itself.
... and that is not useful criticism ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-30-2009, 03:12 PM   #49
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

This is an exceptional thread and a good reminder of `what's what`
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Old 09-30-2009, 03:36 PM   #50
David Orange
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
That's because I am not writing to compel you. If I respond it is because I recognize something put forth in their terms and wish to work it through in mine, and it might tangentially be of value to someone looking at the physical issues involved, since I have kinda thought this through at this point.
Erick, the problem is that all your statements, whether you wish them to compel or not, simply show that you just don't understand what the major IS proponents are even talking about. It's like someone trying to get into a discussion between neurologists by talking about a Paul McCartney song. There's just no relevance. So when you post this stuff because you "wish to work through it" in your own terms, you just have to expect people to say (sooner or later) "Mmmm....I'm afraid you don't know what we're talking about."

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Name anyone else who has even attempted to put this stuff in a rigorous bio-mechanical framework.
First, your "this stuff" seems completely unrelated to the "this stuff" described by those who are recognized as having pretty deep mastery of "internal strength" and "internal training." I know they can do it and I have felt what they can do and it's not something you will find in any mainstream aikido dojo I've ever visited. In fact, most aikido places I've visited seem intent on watering down people's ability to have and express any kind of strength at all. You water it down to the teacher's level or you get out. With Dan and Ark, certainly, I can say that their strength is distilled to a more potent and higher degree than anything I've met, including in Japan.

and again

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Name anyone else who has even attempted to put this stuff in a rigorous bio-mechanical framework.Certainly not those guys -- which is again NOT a criticism, simply a point of fact.
But it's not a fact. It is clearly wrong because they have all discussed the precise internal mechanics involved in producing the awe-inspiring results of internal strength training. Dan, especially, in his seminar, went into great detail about the internal body structures used and precisely how they are used. They have also gone deeply into "intent," which I don't think you or anyone else has described in a "rigorous bio-mechanicalframework."

And the more important point is that you really seem to be talking about something entirely different from what they are describing. My five-year-old has rigorously explained to me why he has had a lingering cough lately: he swallowed a fly while his mother was talking to him and the fly is down in his knee, now, making him cough. He showed me very exactly how the impulse to cough originates in his knee, moves up his thigh, traverses his abdomen, moves into his lungs, and emerges in his throat as a cough. The doctor, needless to say, dismisses that explanation, but we did get an x-ray to see if there's an obstruction in his airway.

I'm afraid the responses you get are along those same lines for more or less the same reasons.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Nor even some of the technically minded people they have worked with, who have been mentioned. The reason is that the categories of information involved on either side (East and West) do not map on-for-one between data sets.
Well, you know, you don't seem to be using any of the data sets they're using, but trying to substitute a lot of unrelated statements as "alternative" explanations.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The traditional terminology and concepts in the history of these arts and the more common mechanical conventions and concepts that we would use (usually force-vector or f=ma) cannot be trivially substituted. To do so is meaningless and misleading. But they are BOTH coherent and they BOTH relate -- once you break them down into parts and definitions that WILL relate correctly .
Not if you're not using the same information they're using. And it seems clear that you are not. Mark's call to post videos of yourself is an offer for you to show that you're even in the same book, much less on the same page.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
There are many more than one convention available to use in defining a physical problem or dynamic state. This is what I have done, and it does not take more than a knowledge of a certain branch of 18th c. mechanics and a little late 20th c. knowledge of neuro-muscular functions to grasp the essential working points on the Western side. I am frankly constantly amazed at the resistance to trying to look at it in this way. Amazed, I say. Who knows, they might even prove me wrong....
It's not necessary to prove you wrong. You do that, yourself by addressing something totally unrelated in your tortuously elaborate rationalizations. But you are talking about something entirely different--maybe "ordinary" aikido technique, but not IS aikido. But if you don't accept that, you need to step up and put your hands on someone like Dan or Ark and you won't need more than a moment to understand why everyone has been telling you for months that you don't get the point. I'm constantly amazed at your resistance to doing that. It's easier than writing down a single one of your posts. Save yourself some years, man, and go find out the truth. If you can do a fraction (20%) of what Dan does, I will buy you a bottle of champagne.

David

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Lao Tzu

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