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Old 09-23-2009, 03:26 PM   #51
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido and Weight Lifting

Well I think what you see in the BJJ scenario is "All things being equal" that is being played out.

As skill and knowledge spread it no longer becomes a significant competitive advantage thus you have to find another avenue to capitalize on.

Strength and size and conditioning matter alot when all else is equal for sure!

Thus why there are weight and age categories in most tournaments. So what else is left? Strength, Speed, Agility.

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Old 09-24-2009, 03:28 AM   #52
Michael Varin
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Re: Aikido and Weight Lifting

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Also noteworthy -- I think it was Tohei talking about going around getting physically stronger (for Judo, I believe) and when he met Ueshiba, his physical strength completely failed him.
What about when he met Herman, the unskilled American with no balance? This is after 18 years of aikido and presumably internal training.

Beginning at 6:30 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1mC6XDXL5Y
Quote:
Rob John wrote:
Don, you've just never been exposed to someone with this kind of strength... this kind of strength is just as applicable on the ground as it is standing.
Basically it goes something like this.
Someone with strength but little skill : A
Someone with skill but little strength: B
Someone with strength and skill: C
Someone with Internal strength but little skill: D
Someone with Internal strength and skill: E
Where did Tohei fit into the A-E scale in 1958?
Is this what E vs. A looks like?

I've met plenty of run of the mill mma and bjj fighters who would have made Herman look like the rank beginner he was, despite the weight disadvantage.

I don't think strength training is a cure all, but I do think you'd be a fool to discount it.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 09-24-2009, 04:30 AM   #53
dps
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Re: Aikido and Weight Lifting

You need a balance of both internal and external, ying and yang.

David
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Old 09-24-2009, 06:34 AM   #54
MM
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Re: Aikido and Weight Lifting

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I've met plenty of run of the mill mma and bjj fighters who would have made Herman look like the rank beginner he was, despite the weight disadvantage.

I don't think strength training is a cure all, but I do think you'd be a fool to discount it.
I'll reiterate what someone else has said. It's a wonderful phrase that perfectly described me a few years ago. "I didn't know that I didn't know."

In that respect, Mr. Varin, my only suggestion is that I truly hope that you keep an open mind and you jump at the chance to train with someone who has "good" Internal Skills.
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Old 09-24-2009, 07:35 AM   #55
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido and Weight Lifting

I definitely have an open mind and respect for those that are teaching this stuff.

Alas, I am STILL waiting to find the guy that will demonstrate this stuff in a integrative way. i.e. Applications for MMA and Grappling.

I have had plenty of "School House" and/or "Seminar/Dojo" gee whiz training...which was quite impressive to say the least.

I still have issues with the "realitive value" of what this type of training adds to say a MMA/Grappling or non-compliant environment over what is being taught/implemented in the grappling/MMA world already.

Maybe one day...but haven't found the guy yet who will show me. Not saying that this is not possible...just haven't seen it yet.

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Old 09-24-2009, 08:24 AM   #56
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Re: Aikido and Weight Lifting

From my own personal adventure, I found weight lifting in general left me tighter and more apt to use my strength versus movement. Not to mention tired, which slowed me down uke-wise. With that being said, i am sure there is a way to make both fit as a scheme for better health and practice.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 09-24-2009, 08:37 AM   #57
Upyu
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Re: Aikido and Weight Lifting

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
What about when he met Herman, the unskilled American with no balance? This is after 18 years of aikido and presumably internal training.

Beginning at 6:30 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1mC6XDXL5Y

Where did Tohei fit into the A-E scale in 1958?
Is this what E vs. A looks like?

I've met plenty of run of the mill mma and bjj fighters who would have made Herman look like the rank beginner he was, despite the weight disadvantage.

I don't think strength training is a cure all, but I do think you'd be a fool to discount it.
Well, I think it brings to light exactly how skilled people were back then. I'd have to say Tohei at the time probably wasn't working out with non-compliant partners (aliiiive training) that much, which shows. So it's more like looking at D vs. A. Another thing I'd point out is that if I recall correctly, Tohei was admonished to go "light" on the guy. Being a Judo guy, I'm sure Tohei knew more than a few dirty tricks if he wanted to throw down the gauntlet. If you ask me it was more a demo of IS(trength) with little Jutsu/skill involved.

Here's a better example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs
Chen Bing can't weigh more than 75 kg, but is able to throw his semi-compliant (his partner is definitely not fully resisting) like a rag doll.

Last edited by Upyu : 09-24-2009 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 09-24-2009, 11:37 AM   #58
bkedelen
 
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Re: Aikido and Weight Lifting

Wow that is a great video. Chen doesn't even look like he weighs 60kg. Rob's D vs. A reminds me of an excellent point. Note that for the purposes of my point I am actually going to swap the meanings of "dead" and "alive" as it is used in Rob's post. Managing the weight of a non-complicit human body, dead or alive, provides a significantly different challenge than managing a piece of iron. One of my best friends is a highway patrol officer, and he says it takes about six guys to remove a corpse from an automobile accident. The amazing thing is, it is challenging to learn to be non-complicit! I tried to pretend that I was dead the other day and my 50kg wife moved me all over the room. I know that if I had truly been dead, she would have had one hell of a harder time moving me around. I could even feel parts of my autonomic musculature helping her out against my will. I think it is a mistake to think that weight lifting advocates like myself are saying that learning to move a lot of dead weight a long distance in a short amount of time will allow you to manage the weight of your partner in a similar way, especially if your partner has any internal skill. I am more advocating that moving dead weight in such a way has tremendous physical health advantages that will keep you alive, uninjured and in the dojo for an extra decade or two. Such training also has a lot of neurological body learning advantages in that learning something new simply makes you better at learning.
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Old 09-25-2009, 04:19 AM   #59
Michael Varin
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Re: Aikido and Weight Lifting

Hey Rob,

Great post. While I agree that that was nowhere near full resistance, the "uke" was uncooperative and that video much more closely demonstrates what you guys often describe.

I would just like to make clear that I claim no substantial understanding of or experience with "internal skills." I am open minded about that area of practice and read the threads with great interest, but because of my nature and experiences hold a certain amount of skepticism.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:52 AM   #60
Upyu
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Re: Aikido and Weight Lifting

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I would just like to make clear that I claim no substantial understanding of or experience with "internal skills." I am open minded about that area of practice and read the threads with great interest, but because of my nature and experiences hold a certain amount of skepticism.
Michael:
Hey, we all start from somewhere right?
Just wanted to note that skepticism is needed, because it'll help you separate the bullsh"# from the real. Real internal skill is undeniable, and will work on you whether you want it to or not.
Depending on your level of interest I'd find a seminar where they're teaching the basics. This stuff has to be felt, and unfortunately no amount of words can describe the requirements, subtleties etc that go into the exercises. Or the pain (depending on the approach)

Last edited by Upyu : 09-25-2009 at 07:55 AM.
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