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Old 05-01-2009, 10:36 PM   #126
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
Thomas Donelson wrote:
"If you let your child learn ANY Aikido Wrist Locks or foot work manuevers, with a wrist lock, your child will grow up to be a hunchback cripple!!!" The Genes will be altered by Aikido and the sholders, wrists and elbows, of both arms will be deformed.
That's a bit of a straw man isn't it?

Quote:
No reports of any permanent injury have been reported anywhere on this thread, but the implication of the fears seems beyond permanent, to the spiritual after life.
You might say the lack of reported long-term injuries on this thread might have something to do with the fact that folks here are so cautious in the first place.

Quote:
So now 4000 people viewing this thread are being told to keep their children away from Aikido schools. Football is OK.
...by teachers of Aikido to children? Again, this is a bit of a straw man.

Quote:
I broke my wrist a couple of times falling off motorcycles, in my teens. My wrists healed OK. Children's wrists are still growing under the direction of DNA. So how does strain on the wrists, from Aikido wrist-locks, Change DNA? Aikido wrist locks change your DNA?
..
That's also a bit of an exageration isn't it? Children's wrists/bones are growing at the growth plates. If you damage those, growth can be affected. It's simply an issue...and one which seems riskier when an anonymous person with little to no experience proposes regularly teaching the stuff.
http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00040

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-02-2009, 07:54 AM   #127
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
Rafael Ayala wrote: View Post
*munches popcorn* You know, I thought I'd just quit reading this thread but dammit I just can't seem to! It's like not being able to stop watching a terribly cheesy soap opera because you just gotta see what happens next. *slurps his Coke*
This is a wonderful lead in for my next thought train (wreck).

Soaps.

Most of the violence in America is Where? In the streets?

Of course, much is in the FAMILIES. Search Domestic Violence 2008. Search Street Assault 2008.

Verbal Abuse leads to Physical Abuse.

Handling verbal abuse in the home, is similar to handling physical abuse.

The Wrist-Lock Dance is a tool that might sometimes be helpful in the family. The Family relationship will mostly continue after the confrontation.

The Motivation for Abuse is seeking the reward of Consternation. I keep Suzette Elgin's latest book handy. The Boring Baroqe Response is the correct Answer. Arguing, Fighting, Ignoring Silently, Fear, Walking away, all indicate Consternation to the Abuser. Those are Rewards to the Abuser, bvecause he seeks an emotional response, which is similar to the Caring and Love he actuallyh desires. Disinterested, pleasant blithering is the correct response.

Similarly, the non-angry, even affectionate or loving, step aside, arm grab, and dance with a wrist lock can be done without the reward of CONSTERNATION. Even if it is just one spin, and release.

So those who refuse to teach youngsters the art of Wrist-Lock Dance, are depriving individuals and youngsters, a key method of avoiding rewarding the habit of abuse in the family setting. Applying strikes and blows indicates Consternation, and is a reward.

The abuser feels betrayed, which is expressed as Anger. The Abuser is really seeking Love, and feels Angry that he/she does not receive the Love he/she feels is deserved or expected.

The human expression of Anger at Betrayal is a natural response, that needs to be UNLEARNED, because asking for more love by being abusive, is most usually counter-productive. We need to strive to avoid unintentionally rewarding the abuser with Consternation.

When I am yelled at, or otherwise feel unreasonable Anger from someone, my natural response is to yell back. Same with me. I feel betrayed, and I want more love, and here I am, FEELING like yelling back! As a Victim, I need to learn counter-intuitive responses, of avoiding unintentional rewards of consternation for abuse.


..

Last edited by Thomas Donelson : 05-02-2009 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 05-02-2009, 09:16 AM   #128
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Getting Even also displays Consternation.

The communication of he Boring Baroque Response, is "I Like you; I care about you; I am ready to listen to you, but I don't understand what your are saying, so I am just saying nonsense back to you, because I don't know what to say, because I don't understand what you want me to do differently next time, or how you want me to make up for the situation we have now."

Some of my most frightened moments have been when a woman has come at me with a utensil from the kitchen, jabbing at me. I was scared not primarily for my own safety, but more about what I was thinking of having to do to defend myself, and how that was going to make be look, and feel. Thanks for the Aikido training I had, I was able to diffuse the situations. The wrist-lock Aikido Dance might have been helpful. I had not yet developed the concept.

Usually now, I will make a hasty exit, when I see some flames of anger in a woman.
..

Last edited by Thomas Donelson : 05-02-2009 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 05-02-2009, 09:57 AM   #129
Michael Hackett
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Sorry that you won't feel the love as I quietly retire from the field, knowing all along that they might be giants.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 05-02-2009, 11:11 AM   #130
mathewjgano
 
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deescalation

Quote:
Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
This is a wonderful lead in for my next thought train (wreck).
I'll ride that train too.

Quote:
Most of the violence in America is Where?...Of course, much is in the FAMILIES. Search Domestic Violence 2008. Search Street Assault 2008.
Good point. Particularly when you consider the many situations which never get reported...which I suspect is quite a few.

Quote:
Verbal Abuse leads to Physical Abuse.
In the sense that mind and body are interconnected, I bet verbal abuse could even be described as physical abuse and not be too far off, though that depends on the state of mind of the victim.

Quote:
Those are Rewards to the Abuser, bvecause he seeks an emotional response, which is similar to the Caring and Love he actuallyh desires. Disinterested, pleasant blithering is the correct response.
I've not read that, but it sounds very similar to my own general practice...although blithering doesn't seem like the right word to me (despite it accurately describing a bad habit of mine ). I also think disinterested might not be as universally good as you make it sound. I would argue showing interest is a more actively respectful approach which generally works better. I agree that where an emotional response is desired, it's often useful to not feed into that. On the other hand, when the abuser isn't getting what he or she wants, that can cause an escalation too. I had a roomate who constantly tried to provoke me. I have been described as the proverbial wet noodle most of the time and this did nothing to abate his desire for a response. If anything, it made the desire even more deeply seeded.

Quote:
Applying strikes and blows indicates Consternation, and is a reward.
Twisting someone's wrist, particularly an aggressive person, still seems akin to striking to me...and of course no one should be responding to verbal abuse with physical violence or the role of abuser becomes mutual.

Quote:
The Abuser is really seeking Love, and feels Angry that he/she does not receive the Love he/she feels is deserved or expected.
While I would agree the basic human condition is to desire love (so that's a underpinning to all behavior), situationally speaking, the desired gratification could be something else entirely. Love (other-regarding concern) has to be present, but it is rarely the sole tumbler that opens the lock to difusing aggression. That's how it appears to me anyway...and I would love it if someone with more knowledge would be willing correct or validate that view.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-03-2009, 11:53 AM   #131
mathewjgano
 
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Re: deescalation

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
...and I would love it if someone with more knowledge would be willing correct or validate that view.
Take care,
Matt
LOL...Or not.
Did I help land the deathstroke to this thread? Where's the popcorn at!? I can still smell it 'round here somewhere although it does seem to have faded a bit.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-03-2009, 12:34 PM   #132
Pat Togher
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Re: deescalation

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
LOL...Or not.
Did I help land the deathstroke to this thread?
Hope so!
Nice verbal tenkans, BTW. Very elegant.
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Old 05-08-2009, 03:58 PM   #133
Lan Powers
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

I particularly enjoyed the steady building of the idea of wrist lock dance to becoming the ART OF "WRISTLOCK DANCE" just waiting for the little trademark symbol...

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 09-17-2009, 07:18 PM   #134
Thomas Donelson
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Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

I am short of time, and Aikido is either too far or taught too rigidly for my style.

Today I stopped by a Karate studio near my house, and the Karate instructor seemed to have time for me, but he refused to accpt my money because he felt he was not qualified to teach Aikido wrist locks.

I was thinking that over, tonight, and all I really need is for a partner to attempt to defeat my wrist locks. The Aidio wrist locks, from a standng position, are fairly simple. It is just applying them,and positioning my body with footwork to avoid injury and keep control of the opponent.

So all I need the guy to know is the double-slap, for when the hold is causing too much pain, if he wants to practice wrist locks on me.

But I don't care if he ever learns any wrist locks. I just need a practice partner who can control his jabs, strikes and kicks, so I can practice my wrist locks on him, while he tries to show he can hurt me. I just want to be ready to dance, if somebody wants to get cute.

Some of the guys at work sometimes seem to think the Three Stooges are the model of work-place antics.

..
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Old 09-17-2009, 07:30 PM   #135
Michael Hackett
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

The karate guy is worth knowing.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 09-18-2009, 03:01 AM   #136
Eva Antonia
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

No offense...but I think if you stop trying to find shortcuts to mastering aikido it would result in better learning effects.

But on the other hand, if you do some google research you'd certainly find some instructors teaching you miraculous wrist locks even via Internet

Best regards,

Eva
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Old 09-18-2009, 05:35 AM   #137
Brian Gillaspie
 
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

I have practiced techniquest with non-Aikido practitioners...but in my opinion people are better off learning techniques on the mat from a quality Aikido instructor.

I had the chance to train at a couple of Aikido dojos in DC while I was there for work. One was Okinawa Aikikai (dcaikido.com) with Sensei Michael Veltri and the other was Aikido of Arlington (www.aikidoofarlington.com) with Sensei Yvonne Thelwell. I don't know what you are looking for but I would recommend either one of them. I am not from that area so I don't know what else is available to you.
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Old 09-18-2009, 05:54 AM   #138
Shadowfax
 
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

How far is too far? I travel about an hour to get to my classes 3x a week.

To me Aikido is about far more than wrist and joint locks. And in order to gain the true essence of what Aikidio is really about, one needs to practice it with those who are experienced with, and who love the sport.

For someone to be a good uke takes as much training as to be nage. Its a whole lot more than just a body to practice on who knows when to tap out. Ukemi itself is an art form.

The Karate instructor sounds like a very intelligent person. Perhaps you might consider taking up karate and learning from him since he is more convenient to you. It may just be that Aikido cannot fill the need you currently feel to be able to handle your stooges at work.

Aikido is a lifetime study and not something to be rushed and certainly not something that you should take shortcuts with.

Last edited by Shadowfax : 09-18-2009 at 05:56 AM.
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Old 09-18-2009, 07:15 AM   #139
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
For someone to be a good uke takes as much training as to be nage. Its a whole lot more than just a body to practice on who knows when to tap out.
Yeah, that. I think it's sketchy to be practicing techniques on people who haven't been properly taught how to respond to them (and if you're trying to learn the techniques yourself, you're most likely not the one who should be teaching them). Seems like too much injury potential. If he's a karate instructor, learn karate from him.
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Old 09-18-2009, 07:32 AM   #140
Dazzler
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

Quote:
Brian Gillaspie wrote: View Post
I have practiced techniquest with non-Aikido practitioners...but in my opinion people are better off learning techniques on the mat from a quality Aikido instructor.
.
If aim is to learn techniques then you can learn techniques from anyone that knows them.

If your aim is to learn Aikido it must be from someone that knows it.

Techniques and Aikido are not the same thing
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Old 09-18-2009, 07:55 AM   #141
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

We've been down this road before with Mr Donelson in this thread.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16013

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Old 09-18-2009, 09:29 AM   #142
raul rodrigo
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

Good point, Kevin. Given the history of wrist locks and Mr. Donelson on Aikiweb, then perhaps one of the advantages that the "karate instructor" approach would have is that Mr. D would not have to be a student, something that seems to be an issue. That said, it is also its main disadvantage; Mr. D would not be a student, would not be learning anything more sophisticated than "that hurts, that one doesn't hurt." I remember my own history with nikkyo, for instance; I learned a good deal from a sempai who was willing to work with me slowly and give me detailed feedback about what I lacked in alignment, kamae, and so on.
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Old 09-18-2009, 10:09 AM   #143
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

I'm going to offer some advice; that I doubt you will take, but it's on the table.

"Wrist locks" are not very effective. There are only a handful of situations where you will successfully apply, and control a person with a "wrist lock".

Wrist techniques, have lots of application when you are trying to free your hand, or disarm. This is why I believe wrist techniques are common in most Jujutsu systems.

Learning to apply a good choke or headlock is a better use of your time. That is if work place hijinks is your concern.

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Old 09-18-2009, 11:47 AM   #144
Basia Halliop
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

The karate guy sounds like a good guy.

If you're trying to 'teach yourself' wristlocks, it might be useful to know that 'making it hurt' really isn't the main goal most of the time, and isn't really enough for you to be able to say it's 'working'... just causing someone pain is not always all that effective at getting them to do what you want. The more upset or worked up someone is, often the more the adrenaline keeps them from feeling the pain (or sometimes if they feel it fully it makes them mad or confused or motivates them to try to hurt you to try to make you stop)

I once tore a toenail partly off and didn't notice until I saw the blood (it hurt like crazy about five minutes _afterwards_, but not at the moment). The first time I got an injury from a wristlock (tore something, took a couple of months to heal completely), I didn't realize it until after class. I broke a wrist when I was fifteen and didn't realize there was something wrong until I went to open a door. These are very common experiences, it's not just me. I was even talking to someone recently who dislocated a shoulder, which is generally known as a particularly painful injury -- yup, she didn't notice it until someone told her it looked funny, didn't feel all the pain until the next day.

So no, 'if he's tapping' isn't really a good way to know if you've got it right or not. It's more about being able to move them where you want to move them, keep them from attacking you, etc...

Maybe I misunderstood the 'stooges' remark, but unless you're a security guard or something (in which case a proper training course designed for that is what you need), if you're having conflicts at work this is the last thing you need -- you need something more like verbal conflict resolution training, or a more supportive boss, or whatever. Otherwise you'll just make things worse and get charged for assault or fired for brawling on the job.
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:21 PM   #145
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

Dear Tom,

We practice Daito-ryu aikijujutsu in Baltimore, MD. It might be a bit far but you're welcome to come up and work out with us. Just PM me and let me know if you're interested.

Best regards,

Chris Covington
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:25 PM   #146
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

Mr Donelson!
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Old 09-18-2009, 01:02 PM   #147
Michael Hackett
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

Read the previous thread highlighted by Kevin above.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 09-18-2009, 03:40 PM   #148
David Maidment
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Re: Practicing Wrist Locks With a Karate Instructor

My favourite people to train with are aikidoka who are also karateka. I've had it suggested to me in the past that it would be beneficial for my Aikido to take up Karate, also. If I didn't feel like I'd just be using the Karate school, I'd definitely do it. The benefits are obvious.

"Never escalate a battle unless forced to do so by your enemy" - Zordon
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