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Old 08-27-2009, 08:27 AM   #51
phitruong
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWG6eglkLa8 looked like aikido, no? or jujutsu? or many other martial arts?
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:34 AM   #52
Abasan
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Ignatius wrote:

Why is it that I can walk into a Judo Tournament playing by their rules as a Judo White Belt/BJJ Purple Belt and walk out with a third place medal against two other black belts?
Because you're an aikido black belt??

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:35 AM   #53
DH
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Aliveness- is a not a minor difference in training either. In and of itself it is a major consideration for what the body can absorb, and redirect, what it can do in failure to turn the tables, what it can negate; either completely or partially, and what it can do to change the mindset and intent of the opponent and more importantly what it does to change your own mindset.

Everyone is familiar enough with my anti-ukemi rants so I won't go there again. Consider that the video showed two different waza being employed. The waza is consistent with any number of arts. How many think they would have been able to "catch" the opponent when that opponent was punching and kicking the crap out of you and trying to set you up in a calculated, experienced and planned methodology all his own?
The way to -get- there is to go there and train.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:56 AM   #54
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Because you're an aikido black belt??
lol. Well this is probably why I am so experienced in this topic of dissonance. After doing martial arts in the Traditional sense for 15 years, I had to face a bunch of soldiers who didn't really care what my background was and refused to recoginize my training "experience".

It was a disconcerting few weeks of trying to take inventory of what I had been doing for the last 15 years!

The good news was once I figured out what was going on, it allowed me to embrace a new way of training. I found that because of my background in aikido and TMA, I was able to advance fairly rapidily in gaining new skillz.

So the good news for most of us, is that our training does not have to looked at as a waste of time.

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Old 08-27-2009, 06:45 PM   #55
eyrie
 
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Hi Kevin,

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Well the difference is as you state Ignatius, how it is pracitced [sic] and what emphasis is put on what aspects of the "fight"....... it is how it is practiced that makes the difference on how well you can do it given a certain set of parameters or conditions.
Absolutely. By the very nature and diversity of Aikido practice itself, and I cæveat this by saying - the way it is practiced in various places, and the way it was intended to be practiced, as Ueshiba (may or may not have) intended for it, may be 2 entirely different things.

IMO, the focus on what is Aikido waza or "not" Aikido waza is missing the whole point of Aikido - which by its very nature being a "formless" art - as is the case with ALL martial arts performed at higher and higher levels of sophistication - has NO waza. The whole point of any MA training is to change (read retrain/untrain) the way you move, respond, react - or in this case NOT move, respond, react - if you catch my drift.

Quote:
Aliveness matters, and Aliveness is enough of a factor to make a distinction between two "styles" doing the exact same thing.
When I first came across that word, I felt many people were largey using it as some MMA buzzword, and in many cases, no one I spoke to could really elaborate what that meant. To them it was mostly about being in the "fight" mindset and kicking someone else's a$$. It wasn't until I read what Matt Thornton had to say about it, that I found myself entirely in agreement with him. I don't see how one could possibly train in a MA, traditional or otherwise, and not train "alive". Perhaps, it is less overt in some places than others? Hidden in plain sight as it were...?

Which brings me back to the point about Aikido waza... it's not much different to your basic garden variety jujitsu - kotegaeshi, shihonage, iriminage, tenchinage, kaitennage etc... they are all found in various forms of "jujitsu" - whether they be of Japanese, Chinese or other derived origins. It matters not that such-and-such-a style does it slightly differently - the basic premise and principle of the technique is exactly the same. The human body can only be made to move and respond in fairly predictable ways, when appendages are bent, twisted and folded in ways they were not meant to be, or when poked, punched and kicked in various places.

But the whole point about learning Aikido waza isn't just so you can do something to someone, in which case, you might as well be doing your garden variety jujitsu, but so that you also learn and condition yourself not to move, respond and react in predictable fashion to such techniques being applied on you - whatever that means.

Quote:
...two ways to solve the problem. 1. Come to the conclusion that you are not going to be a fighter in the ring and dissassociate. 2. Admit that you need the skills and abandon your current processes and adopt ones that will lead you to where you want to go.
Hmmm.... is THAT why the views here are so polarized?

Quote:
....to say "Hey look at this guy using Aikido in a real fight...." does no good at all since the correalation simply is illogical and does not apply to you personally.
Precisely. Hence, my admonition to get outside the safe box one calls the "dojo" and train with other MA stylists - on their turf, with their rules. Or take option #1.

Ignatius
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:39 AM   #56
Jason Morgan
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post

Some techniques remain a mystery to me

Still some Aikido techniques continue to be a mystery to me and seem only applicable against a crazy guy charging at you giving you full committal. For example, certain versions of kokyu-ho seem incredibly unrealistic unless the guy continued to hold your hand throughout the movement. This is obviously ridiculous in a real life situation.
When you look at those techniques, especially ones where uke grabs a wrist and keeps holding it for no apparent reason, think of what the fight would be like if you were holding a weapon, or if they had a weapon. We train weapons regularly and I've found that many of the techniques reflect a situation in which either nage or uke is attempting to retain and attack with a weapon.
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Old 09-05-2009, 04:31 PM   #57
Shany
 
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

I Do real surprise attacks on my teacher, while he is walking around, or checking other students. just like a crazy man would jump on u out of the blue.

I love it!

A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:30 PM   #58
Grant Buhr
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
I Do real surprise attacks on my teacher, while he is walking around, or checking other students. just like a crazy man would jump on u out of the blue.
Not now, Cato!
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:44 PM   #59
Suru
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
I've been training in Aikido for perhaps say 16 years.

you realized that there are punches that you can't do a technique on (for example a crisp jab)
You've been training Aikido for 16 years, and you never learned jab defense? Put up a flat, opposite hand and grip the fist when it touches the palm. Simultaneously grab the wrist with the same-side hand and with uke's fist and elbow in a vertical "tenchi," drop it straight to the ground with your center. Nikkyo and kote gaeshi become readily available, among others.

Drew
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Old 09-15-2009, 10:13 PM   #60
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

I can't do that when someone is really bent on using my face as a side of beef. About the best I can do it protect myself from getting knocked out and then move in for the clinch and irimi. That is what I hope for.

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Old 09-15-2009, 10:43 PM   #61
Suru
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Standing dynamically in kamae reduces an attacker's jab efficacy considerably.

Drew
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:04 AM   #62
TEARO
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

What's CMD?8-)
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:32 AM   #63
Tim Fong
 
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
You've been training Aikido for 16 years, and you never learned jab defense? Put up a flat, opposite hand and grip the fist when it touches the palm. Simultaneously grab the wrist with the same-side hand and with uke's fist and elbow in a vertical "tenchi," drop it straight to the ground with your center. Nikkyo and kote gaeshi become readily available, among others.

Drew
When people are throwing the jab with bad intentions, I've found this difficult. Any pointers?

Tim
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:49 AM   #64
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Learn to box.

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Old 09-16-2009, 08:21 AM   #65
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Well Boxing is fine and you learn some good skills, but boxing ain't really fight'n either. Boxing is basically a sport of attrition where two guys square off and trade punches and blocks in a very limited range of combat with some big ass gloves on.

I tend to not like to sit in that range and trade blows, but that is me!

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Old 09-16-2009, 08:58 AM   #66
C. David Henderson
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Hi Drew,

I think the qualifier you may have somewhat overlooked is "crisp." FWIW I had the same reaction to your question about tsuki irimi nage when the striker removes his hand quickly. (The video example seemed to involve the more typical tsuki-as-thrust opening).

The technique you describe here is one I've practiced (a little), but I doubt it would be a high percentage move against a skilled striker.

Ever read the scene from "Musashi" where he plucks the fly from mid-air with chop sticks, then releases it unharmed, thereby persuading his would-be attackers to run away?

If you're that fast, as my teacher sometimes says, you probably don't need Aikido.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:07 AM   #67
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Well Boxing is fine and you learn some good skills, but boxing ain't really fight'n either.
Hoping to make clearer my previous post.

Learn to box so you can really understand boxing strikes, i.e. the jab: What is a jab, when is useful, how is done, why the jab and not other strike...?.

Then you can try to figure how to deal with them with aikido.

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Old 09-16-2009, 11:05 AM   #68
ChrisHein
 
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Learn to box.
This is great advice for 2 reasons.

A. What most people are talking about when they say "fight", is some kind of unarmed exchange that has to do with your position on the social latter (breeding rights, tribal position ) . So learning to box is very relevant to this question. Learn to box, good answer.

B. If they do learn to box, they will learn that there is much more to fighting then boxing. And while boxing is a very useful skill, they would much rather use another skill set when facing real danger. This is the reason the military has stockpiles of weapons, but not boxing gloves.

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Old 09-16-2009, 11:10 AM   #69
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Chris, your post reminded me about this article:

http://www.hoplology.com/articles_detail.asp?id=14

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Old 09-16-2009, 11:56 AM   #70
Suru
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
When people are throwing the jab with bad intentions, I've found this difficult. Any pointers?

Tim
For starters, I don't believe this or any technique has 100% effectiveness for anyone. I think if an attacker is going to throw a jab, it will always be as "crisp" as possible, although less powerful than a wound-up punch. Catching a glimpse of an incoming jab and getting the hand up in time to catch the punch is certainly not easy, but with more practice it becomes more viable. There is certainly an important pointer that didn't come to mind as I wrote my post; a same-side step back should occur simultaneously with the palm stop, grab, and wrist grab.

Drew
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:05 PM   #71
Stormcrow34
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Catching jabs out of the air? Stepping back? From what I recall, the last time I stepped back to avoid a jab, there was a straight right waiting for me. A jab is a setup punch. Primarily, it judges distance, blinds and creates openings by illiciting a response. Over reacting to one can be a very bad idea. Boxers (who deal with it most often and most effectiviely) sometimes deal with a jab by bobbing and weaving and slipping inside the stiff end of the punch.

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 09-16-2009 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:29 PM   #72
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
Catching jabs out of the air? Stepping back? From what I recall, the last time I stepped back to avoid a jab, there was a straight right waiting for me. A jab is a setup punch. Primarily, it judges distance, blinds and creates openings by illiciting a response. Over reacting to one can be a very bad idea. Boxers (who deal with it most often and most effectiviely) sometimes deal with a jab by bobbing and weaving and slipping inside the stiff end of the punch.
All I can say is that's what I learned from a highly qualified, excellent sensei. Well, I can say one more thing; I wouldn't cuss out Mike Tyson then try it on him.

Drew
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:33 PM   #73
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Jabs are skillfully used to off balance, gain the iniative, and close distance. the fact that it actually hits you may or may not matter, it really is the secondary effects that you need to be concerned with such as the other hand, the fact that he has taken away space, has momentum, or has caused you to go off your center.

Parrying and moving to a better position than I am currently in is about all I can really do.

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Old 09-16-2009, 02:02 PM   #74
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Something I learned at my original dojo, which then got reinforced at my first Saotome Shihan seminar back in about 2000, is to be able to commit to a technique, but also being alert enough to switch it up in a tenth of a second (human reaction time) if need be. I learned to be aware that uke surely does have a reserve fist and that this must be acknowledged and respected. Uke also has two feet, two knees, and one hell of a powerful forehead.

Kevin, I am really glad you brought that up because it is of paramount importance to be mindful of, even though it surely does not simplify matters for nage.

Drew
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Old 09-17-2009, 06:52 AM   #75
DonMagee
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Re: My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Well Boxing is fine and you learn some good skills, but boxing ain't really fight'n either. Boxing is basically a sport of attrition where two guys square off and trade punches and blocks in a very limited range of combat with some big ass gloves on.

I tend to not like to sit in that range and trade blows, but that is me!
My boxing coach tells me boxing is about slipping, off-balancing your opponent, and knocking him out. He has told me that if you are getting hit, you are doing it wrong.

When I first put on 16 ounce gloves they seemed huge compared to mma gloves. And while they do make a difference, I'm less convinced on that difference. When I think about my first amateur fight that I hope to have in the next year, I start to think about how small those 10 and 12 ounce gloves really are.

Honestly, boxing has taught me more about how to 'enter' in on a striking opponent then any other martial art experience I have had. And I've only trained it for 2 weeks. You make your opponent punch, you make it look like it will land, then you are not there anymore causing him to fall off balance (even if just a little) because he expected the hit. Of course while you are stepping in you are throwing that big left hook, followed by another two are three big blows as you move back out to a safe distance.

I suck at it right now, but there are guys that I simply can't hit with any form of effectiveness. I highly recommend anyone to take up boxing training. Even if they never fight (but still spar) they will learn a ton about striking, distance, and movement. Just like I recommend everyone take some kind of ground grappling. Obviously muay thai, or full contact karate, etc would also impart similar skills and teach kicking. I would probably do muay thai if it was available. But for now I just can't wait to see where I'm at in 6 months.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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